The Voynich Ninja

(07-04-2022, 06:11 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(07-04-2022, 01:30 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ahmet:
leaving aside the words, which I am not qualified to comment upon, were modern European-style Arabic numerals in common usage in 15th century Turkish?
Because they don't seem to be used in the classical Ottoman script, which is Arabic based.

[I would question this interpretation also. Not only the use of Arabic numerals in 15th C. Turkish texts, but also the use of Arabic numerals in the VMs vords. Is this the only example of a numeral "2" in the VMs? And what about any of the other numerals "3", "4", "5", etc.?

Edit: Examples used in vords, not in page numbers.]

Dear R.Sale,

In VM texts, we see all numbers from 1 to 9, not only in page numbers, but also in page content, even in sentences. 
Some of them are seen in more samples, while others (for example 5) are seen in less number. 
Moreover, the author used them while writing with alphabet characters along with their phonetic values. For example, like JUST4YOU in English.

Thanks

(07-04-2022, 06:59 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[I would be more interested to know why this particular plant has a numbering. f49v.]

Dear Tentakulus,

On the page you are talking about, numbers from 1 to 5 are written above. But these have nothing to do with the plant drawn on that page. These are about the coding done in the content. Throughout the writing, the first letter of each line is coded to be read from top to bottom. As you can see, these numbers are written from top to bottom, and I think they may represent a certain place or distance.


Here, the author has already used this special alphabet and particularly difficult writing style to make these coded sections difficult to read. You already know that the first letters are usually multi-syllable characters. This is in a way that makes it difficult to read the coding section on each page.

Thanks

We matched one more star name

[attachment=6376] Right next to one of the star drawings on Page 68r, we can read the word OLOZ written by the author.


Today, we write and pronounce this word as ALAZ in Turkey Turkish. 
The OLOZ form in the dialect of the author and the word ALAZ in today's Turkish are very close to each other in terms of phonetic value. 
The word has evolved from the YALAZ / YOLOZ form to ALAZ with the loss of the use of the leading Y- consonant in the language.

It is known that this word in Old Turkish is also seen in some dialects with ÖLEZ, ÜLEZ and ALOZ forms. 
The ÖLEZ form is also used in the sense of "dying light", "being too weak for fire/flame/light", "weak light source", "being in a state of being extinguished", "the sun/star set period (batmakta olan güneş)", or "something whose light is about to die". Etc.

See the glossary page for ALAZ / YALAZ;  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

See the glossary page for ÖLEZ;  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

See the glossary page for ÜLEZ;  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

See the glossary page for ALOZ;  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The most commonly used meanings of this word today are "flame" and "fire". 
And it can be said that the root meaning of the word ALAZ / YALAZ has contain that meaning of light, heat, flame, fire and star/star-light etc.

For those who want to read an academic article on about that the words Yıldız, Alev, Alaz / Yalaz, Işın and Işık (star, flame, ray and light) are derived from the same common root word in Turkish, we can recommend an academic article written by Associate Prof. Dr. Fatma Özkan in 2003. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Because of the content of this root meaning, our scientists, who use the Turkish language as the language of science today, use the name ALAZ in naming some stars and celestial bodies and/or celestial events. 

For example, another of the commonly used meanings of this word ALAZ / YALAZ is "mass of hot and luminous gas that comes out with combustion", and "tongue of burning and luminous gases, extending in different shapes and sizes", and "star-flame/flame".

See the glossary page for ALAZ;  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


See the glossary page for YALAZ;  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


The word ALAZ is also mentioned in Turkish mythology and it is known that this word is also used as a person-name apart from being used to name some plants.

The word widely used as the synonym of ALAZ is the word ALEV (flame).

This word is also the name of the "Fire God" in mythology (and folk legends). It is accepted that the God of Fire is in the sky, like a star. 
This name is also seen in the names of people as "Alas-Batyr" and "Alaz Khan".

(See; <You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>
&
<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>)

We see this name in some plant species with its synonym "Alev Yıldızı" (Flame Star). 

For example, the plant "Mentzelia laevicaulis" is called as "Alev Yıldızı (Flame Star)" in Turkish. (In fact, many varieties of the Mentzelia plant are called by the same name in the Turkish language.). 
The plant called "Liaris Spicata" is also known as "Flame Star" (Alev Yıldızı) in some dialects.

Although some of the names are not live in our today's Turkey Turkish language with their synonyms, we can probably think that these nomenclatures coexisted in different dialects of the Turkish language in the past.

(See; <You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>
&
<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>)

Sometimes for persons, this name is used as an adjective or middle noun. It is also written that the astronomical object called "Alev Yıldızı (Flame Star)" is called "T Coronae Borealis".

(See; <You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.> & <You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.> & <You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>)

The word ALAZ also has been using in Azerbaijani Turkish in the sense of "alev" (flame) & "köz" (ember).
See; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

In fact, we show all the words we mentioned by referencing their pages in real dictionaries. However, sometimes the synonyms or meaning content can be matched correctly by the google translate page algorithm. See "alev, alaz, yalaz, yıldız, alev yıldızı, yalaz yıldızı, alaz yıldızı" etc.
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[attachment=6377]


Thanks

(11-04-2022, 01:34 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.we show all the words we mentioned by referencing their pages in real dictionaries

To make it easier for your readers to understand, you can also indicate the location of the word being examined, using the EVA transcription.

(11-04-2022, 01:43 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(11-04-2022, 01:34 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.we show all the words we mentioned by referencing their pages in real dictionaries

[To make it easier for your readers to understand, you can also indicate the location of the word being examined, using the EVA transcription.]

Dear Novacna,

We do not use EVA transcription. We use the ATA alphabet-transcription that we have prepared by using the articles of Turkish related (from the works of people who have worked on the Old Turkish language and alphabets) writers and linguists.


You can see the content in detail on these pages; 

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ATA Transcription tables. The section on the left shows how the syllable characters are attached to each other. The table on the right is the transcription table of the basic sounds. In addition, numbers have been used as alphabet characters in texts as sound values. You can find information about it on our own page (here; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

[attachment=6378]

Not:


Your linguists explain the origin of the word BLAZE in Indo-European languages in the hypothetical root language (PIE):
"bright flame, fire," Old English blæse "a torch, firebrand; bright glowing flame," from Proto-Germanic *blas- "shining, white" (source also of Old Saxon blas "white, whitish," Middle High German blas "bald," originally "white, shining," Old High German blas-ros "horse with a white spot," Middle Dutch and Dutch bles, German Blesse "white spot," blass "pale, whitish"), from PIE root *bhel- (1) "to shine, flash, burn."   See The source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The root of the word BLAZE written in all these sources is probably (& very likely) related to the Turkish word ALAZ / OLOZ / YALAZ. These are close to each other in sound value and there is a semantic overlap. The root words YA- / YI- / YAL of the word YALAZ / ALAZ in Turkish are also the root of the word YILDIZ (star).

Thanks

(11-04-2022, 02:01 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You can see the content in detail on these pages

Ahmet, unfortunately I only see images and pdf files. The advantages of the EVA transcript are primarily its format, txt, and its availability. Is your transcription in the right format and available to Voynich researchers?
Regarding my first comment, I have not seen any indication of the position of the word presented in the text, so this is not a discussion about transcripts, but about how to present one's results.

Not to be rude Ahmet, but you've lost me.
I called them Arabic numerals because that is the English name for the ten decimal digits written in the form 0123456789.
I called them modern European style because the symbol you discussed (2) is graphed in a modern European style.
Arabian, Persian, tamil, Hindu all use the same characters but graph them in a different way.
The symbol for 2 was just starting to replace the old symbol in the middle of the 15th century in Europe. Before then the digits were written differently. This has been amply discussed elsewhere.
So my question remains - would a Turkish writer, who is not using the Latin alphabet, have known the symbol for 2 in this fashion and used it this way? If 2, why not 4,6,7?
This image shows how the digits were written old style in French Manuscripts from c. 700 to c1500

(11-04-2022, 04:34 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[Not to be rude Ahmet, but you've lost me.
I called them Arabic numerals because that is the English name for the ten decimal digits written in the form 0123456789.
I called them modern European style because the symbol you discussed (2) is graphed in a modern European style.
Arabian, Persian, tamil, Hindu all use the same characters but graph them in a different way.
The symbol for 2 was just starting to replace the old symbol in the middle of the 15th century in Europe. Before then the digits were written differently. This has been amply discussed elsewhere.
So my question remains - would a Turkish writer, who is not using the Latin alphabet, have known the symbol for 2 in this fashion and used it this way? If 2, why not 4,6,7?
This image shows how the digits were written old style in French Manuscripts from c. 700 to c1500]

Mr Jackson,


As I have written many times before, we do not currently know whether the author is Turkish or what nationality she/he is. All we know is that the Turkish language is in the VM content.
Because of this, it doesn't really make sense at this stage to say that the Turks did not use these Arabic numbers in this way before 1453.

However, I also believe that some wrong phrases or namings misinform people and create a wrong perception.

I know that these names (such as "Arap-numerals") are not given by you or anyone else on this page. Moreover, this name "Arabic numerals" is only & widely used around the world. 
In any case, this naming has not been done correctly in the past. The "Arabic" numerals we all are using today creates the perception that an Arab or Arabs created it.

You also think that the Turks used the Arabic alphabet, but then you assume that the Turks (who you assume used the Arabic alphabet), did not use Arabic numerals in the past. Am I wrong?

Is it possible that the Turks, who lived side by side with the Arabs for thousands of years and intertwined throughout the Ottoman Empire, did not use these numbers? Were the numeral called "Arabic numerals" created by the Arabs? 

Just because an idea is considered or accepted by the majority does not make it true.

You know very little about Turkish culture, language, writings, history and civilization. In general, I say that many Europeans do not recognize the culture that has lived next to them for thousands of years.

First of all, we used Arabic and Latin alphabet during the Ottoman period in Anatolia. In the same period, there were also Turkic peoples who used the Hebrew alphabet, the Runic alphabet and the Uyghur alphabet. Later, we say that the author of many manuscripts that you generalize in the West as "Arabic manuscripts" and/or "Persian manuscripts" may not be an Arab or Persian, but may also be a Turk.

And, I do not think I am rude. I was just wondering which sentence you thought was rude. I'm writing about the terminology used, not about individuals. And I write to draw attention to the misconceptions.

I wish you, as some Europeans, to be able to produce denominations free from prejudices.

Here I am writing about my opinions on a specific subject. But sellected preconceived definitions and naming formats have been proliferating in your cultures for hundreds of years, and you are not see there any wrong.

Example;
Brits speak English. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders also speak English. Do your Western historians or linguistics scholars ever use the terminology for those languages as like "American/Americanish" for American English or "Australianish" or "New-Zealandish" etc.? 

Of course no. Because these are not different languages. 

But when it comes to producing terminology related to my culture, your same scientists call the Turkish spoken in Azerbaijan as Azerbaijani. However, Azerbaijan is the name of the geography and the people living in that geography speak Turkish because there is no such language as Azerbaijani. 

The fact that a linguist uses the Azerbaijani nomenclature in his scientific article is pure hypocrisy and a political attitude. There should be no racism, politics, hypocrisy or double standards in science either.

For this reason, you do not have the right to make an immediate correction or due diligence without understanding my criticisms on these issues, as if you were giving us a lesson.

Are you still asking me about "why note 4,6,7?"

I understand that you did not read carefully what I wrote. All numerals 1 through 9 are used in this manuscript, including 1 and 9.

You use the terminology that you have produced and adopted in English. So the people who first called it "Arabic numerals" made a mistake. More precisely, it is a naming that gives false information to people. I am not at all worried about what your experts or historians will say or think here. You come from a culture that can use such terminology as it pleases, just like those who named it EVA (European Voynich Alphabet). But no matter what naming you use, there is no scientific basis for using them like that. These are just acronyms stemming from misinterpreting the available findings.

I think that people who really deal with science only look at the evidence. Please, show me one piece of evidence that the number forms called Arabic numerals were created by Arabs? Doesn't this naming of "Arabic numerals" give people false information if this can not be prove?

While multiple generalizations are made about Arab mathematics, Arab sailors, Persian poetry, etc., have you seen a single Western scientific article that even suggests that some of them might have been made by Turks?

Whatever you think, the author of the ATA (Voynich) Manuscript was using all these letters from 1 to 9 when she/he wrote this book before 1453.

In fact, it is possible that these letters are read in words and sentences in Turkish with their sound values in VM texts. So after a while you're going to have to make some additions to these tables you made about how basic numbers were written in Europe at one time. Because it always is. As humanity progresses and science advances, new evidence is found and old misinformation is thrown away. But even this situation never changes the views of a group of people. For this reason, there are still those who claim that the world is flat like a tray.

How do you know that "Turkish writers was not using the Latin alphabet" was existe before and after 1453 (in Ottoman time period)?

The author of this manuscript also mostly used the characters of the Latin alphabet in his alphabet, in which he created syllabic characters.

In addition, the generalizations you make are incompatible with historical facts. But you are not even aware of it. Because you don't know my culture. Have you read a scientific article about which alphabets the Turks used in the historical process? How many articles have you read about the Türkish calendar, and tamga signs? 

How many articles have you read about if Turks did or did not take/adapted which parts from Arab culture or European culture before and after 1453?

You and some of your friends in this page have repeatedly explained about the drawings of women bathing in various pools that you see in the pages of VM, with seeing/assuming them as "those can be related to European geography and/or culture" (and especially in connection with Italy). Have you ever thought that there may be 1/1 equivalent of these in Turkish culture in Anatolia?

Have you heard of the concept of Turkish bath? Did you have any historical information about the concubines who bathed in the pools in the harem? Did you know that in no other country or geography in Europe there are not as many spas as in Turkey? How many articles have you read that show that historically Italian and Greek culture has quoted/adapted a large number of Turkish cultural identification marks through the Etruscan civilization? How many scientific papers have you read that says why the "PIE root language" assumption is not be real and it didn't exist in the past in reality?

Here we are reading them. We also read articles produced by your European science and can compare contradictory information. Well, before you can make your assumptions such as this and that in Turkish culture, shouldn't you first need to look at what is written on these subjects in the other culture being compared?

Otherwise, it will not be possible for you to perceive that the question you asked has actually been answered, or to correctly evaluate whether the answer corresponds to the historical reality.

We have included this type of evidence in our book.

Here in this VM-ninja page in many times, I have referred to many old evidence in many of my comments.

Science should not be done, and terminology should not be produced, guided by prejudice and personal thoughts.

Sorry for broken English,

Regards,

(11-04-2022, 03:35 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(11-04-2022, 02:01 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You can see the content in detail on these pages

[Ahmet, unfortunately I only see images and pdf files. The advantages of the EVA transcript are primarily its format, txt, and its availability. Is your transcription in the right format and available to Voynich researchers?
Regarding my first comment, I have not seen any indication of the position of the word presented in the text, so this is not a discussion about transcripts, but about how to present one's results.]

ATA transcription is the transcription that provides the largest number of words and sentences to be read in VM texts. 
I don't know if the format is useful or not, and when mapped 1/1 to old texts, it gives us the key to read in (an unknown dialect) in Turkish.

(12-04-2022, 02:15 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know if the format is useful or not

Thank you for your reply. 
My advice was just to indicate the location of the words studied using a transcript known to all and freely available. If you find this impossible, feel free to continue with your own transcription.
I wish you good luck!