The Voynich Ninja

(11-03-2023, 10:43 PM)Arichichi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ahmet Ardıç,

[I'm sure if I use your methodology, I could claim that the text was written in Ancient Egyptian and try to decode it from that framework, is all I'm saying...]

Believe me, I'm glad you're so confident with such great certainty. In fact, we believe that linguistics will gain invaluable innovations with such ambitious researchers who are sure of the results that their perceptions will bring. Please feel free to use my "methodology" and claim that the text is Ancient Egyptian as you say.

So please choose any of the 240 pages you want and translate it into today's modern language. In fact, if you wish, you can read these texts that not only in Egyptian but in any language you want in the world. Doing so, you are free to create a wider field for you in terms of mathematical possibilities.

VM texts have been tried to be read for more than 100 years anyway, and you think that no researcher has tried the methods I use. So, it's easy to say in words, but since you're making a claim, please try it.

The methods I use to reach a solution are completely tried and tested by linguistics many times, but I think you haven't even realized this yet, and you probably think that I was using anagram ways in my work.

My day has been a lot of fun thanks to you. I will look forward to you will proving your claim here and you will reading the VM texts using my method in any language.

I hope you will not leave this claim as an empty phrase and at least make an effort to realize it. In this way perhaps, may be you will have a chance to re-examine what we did in our VM related study.

Thanks,

Those who think that VMS is written in a natural language, please see this table below. In the selected words in this table (as far as I can follow from the EVA tables), the adjacent vowels according to the EVA table are marked with a yellow background. Please let us know if you can find an answer to my question below by looking at the sequence of the vowels in these words (so much so that there are many similar ones throughout the VM-texts) in this book.

[attachment=7260]

1- Were the words in which the vowels are arranged side by side from the third to the ninth in the spelling of the words in the Old Indo-European languages?

2- Is this kind of word vowel structure seen in any  ancient and/or any modern language (included all IE & Semitic languages)?

3- If you see this type of word structure, do you think these words are abbreviated words? If these words are abbreviated words, can only the vowel parts be abbreviated form of an independent word? If you think so, can you give an example of something similar (a word with only vowels or an old word with all consonants droped in an abbreviation) in any ancient language you know?

Or is it more logical to think that these structures are concatenated words (belonging to an agglutinative language such as Turkish)?

4- Could one or more of the letters you think are vowels actually consonants?

The reason why I ask these questions is to encourage you to think differently or to express how we think and form a chain of logic in this detail.

So, what is your opinion about that kind of the vowel form situation. Does the fact that almost all transcription tables and EVA variations made (except ATA transcription) have that kind of multiple vowel structures coming together give researchers a clue that all such transcription proposals and EVA tables are wrong?

Most of the special letters used in the MS book are handwritten equivalents of common Latin alphabet characters. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. alphabet transcription is the transcription that contains the largest number of Latin alphabet characters in the same linear-form among the alphabet transcriptions made to date.

For example, using an EVA, you read a C-shaped letter as the letter E, but this C-shaped letter is already the familiar C letter of the Latin alphabet. Are you aware that the alphabet transcription that offers the most overlap with the Latin letters in this way is the ATA alphabet transcription? When the author draws two CCs side by side, this CĞ/G sound is produced. When the author draws two AA letters side by side, this is the AĞ sound. When the author draws two letters ii, this is the iğ/ğ sound. When the author draws two OOs, this is the OĞ sound equivalent. This -ğ ending-sound of the letter consistency continues in a similar way, and when we transcribe these words on the basis of the sound values of the Turkish pronunciation of these letters in this way, we can read all of them. We even have a Turkish reading recommendation for nine vowel repetitions (because some of them not vowel in reality). (Please see this ATA Syllabic Combine Characters Transcriptions You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)

The word structure of Turkish is not similar to any other language except its own language family. But that doesn't really matter anyway. The only realistic and correct way to read this type of text is to create a correct transcription key. Transcription keys that offer 3 to 9 vowels side by side cannot be the right keys and cannot open the door you want to open.


Thanks

Hi, Ahmet,
it would help if you show the ATA transcription and English translation of the above words, and also the example of spelling of those words in medieval Turkish words (Etruscan will not do). Surely, you can find some of those words in the Codex Cummanicus or other Turkish grammar book written prior to 19th century, where such rules for pronunciation are stated.

(15-03-2023, 04:11 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi, Ahmet,
[it would help if you show the ATA transcription and English translation of the above words, and also the example of spelling of those words in medieval Turkish words (Etruscan will not do). Surely, you can find some of those words in the Codex Cummanicus or other Turkish grammar book written prior to 19th century, where such rules for pronunciation are stated.]

Dear Cvetka, 

Please let me clear something up for you and readers outside of us because (knowingly or unknowingly) you have introduced a concept that is not mine.

The thing is, I don't understand why you put the word "Etruscan" up here. What is the connection between Etruscan and VMS? 
I have never made and/or demonstrated a 1/1 connection between the words in the Etruscan inscriptions and the words in the VMS.

I think you have read our old commentary where the Etruscan name is mentioned, but you have never understood what we wrote there. Or maybe you understand the subject, but with your comment here, you may have wanted to create a perception in other readers by recreating this Etruscan phrase in such a distorted content.

For this reason, I don't think it's right for you to suggest the Etruscan word in this way. Because I think that this will give other people who will read these comments you make a wrong idea about our work as an ATA working group. I hope you are not consciously making a distortion that might create the image of us as if we were making this type of Etruscan connection. Because the research we have done as the ATA group and our VMS-text readings are the most realistic, linguistic, and conclusive studies on VMS-to date. Our work started by identifying linguistic methods, approaches and criteria and is progressing in that way. There is nothing fanciful or utopian about our work. On the contrary, the most consistent study results revealed to date are those we have shown.

We show the words we read in VMS texts either as they are or as root words by separating them into word suffixes in dictionaries.

In our previous commentary on the Etruscan issue, we mentioned it as one of the examples we gave at that time to point out that the entry of Turkic languages into Europe was not 1453, as is commonly thought. In the same comment, we also mentioned that groups such as Tatar peoples spoke Tatar Turkish thousands of years ago in Europe. We also mentioned that Pecheneg Turks lived in Europe before 1453. In addition I was brought up the Etruscan issue,  because we touched on Turkish Runic signs and writing. One of the main purpose of these examples was to express that the Turkish language already existed in Europe in much earlier times compared to the year VMS was written. Because the current issue was to show that some generalization ideas that were thought to be correct in terms of Turkish could be wrong.

In addition, in our previous comments on Etruscan genetic studies, we also showed the Turkish Etruscan link by giving references to academic articles by European researchers. No matter which way the discussions on Etruscan issues develop, we do not intend to establish a 1/1 link between VMS texts/words and Etruscan texts/words. This may be the subject of another research in the future, of course, it is not within our scope at the moment.

For all these reasons, you should know that I consider your reference to this Etruscan subject in your comment an inaccurate and unnecessary ascription.

The last table and questions we show here were essentially that 1/1 of the plurality of side by side vowels in words in a row is not found in any of the languages we have mentioned. This is just one of the signs that the other alphabet transcriptions that have already been made are wrong. So these transcriptions are clearly inconsistent, as it treats some consonants as if they were vowels.

If you're suggesting that I write the Latin equivalents underneath when sharing photos of original word images in the future, that's a useful suggestion and you know I did it from time to time. I must say that I will take your suggestion into consideration and try to implement it as I remember it in the future. In the example for the words in the table in my previous comment here, I did not indicate the Latin letter equivalents. Because I thought that for those who want to examine this subject in detail and are engaged in real linguistics, I think the abbreviations EVA and ATA will suffice as our references.

However, as you said (or as I understood from what you said), it can be useful for readers to show the Latin alphabet every time in the images. Thank you for this suggestion.

Thanks,

(15-03-2023, 03:13 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1- Were the words in which the vowels are arranged side by side from the third to the ninth in the spelling of the words in the Old Indo-European languages?

Roman numeral 444 written in the style of the 15th century:  ccccxxxxiiii. 8 consonants followed by 4 vowels in a 'word'. With this I am not saying that those samples of VMS are roman numerals, I dont think so.

(17-03-2023, 02:18 PM)Juan_Sali Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(15-03-2023, 03:13 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1- Were the words in which the vowels are arranged side by side from the third to the ninth in the spelling of the words in the Old Indo-European languages?

[Roman numeral 444 written in the style of the 15th century:  ccccxxxxiiii. 8 consonants followed by 4 vowels in a 'word'. With this I am not saying that those samples of VMS are roman numerals, I dont think so.]

Dear Sali,

Yep, I understand the detail you drew attention. Thank you for this comment.

In fist looking, theoretically it would seem possible for these to be numbers, but keep in mind please that kind of long word formations also seem to have consonants in different parts of that words too.

Another thing to know is that numbers can be in certain limited numbers regardless of whether they are written with Roman numerals or the number system we use today. For example, if we include zero, the display of numbers up to nine can be expressed with 10 different writing styles. If we look at this detail in terms of Roman numerals, maybe we can add some additional linear expressions for them such as equal expressions for 10, 100, 1000 as mainly. However, even when we add them, the different linear expressions of numbers are less in number than the ones we see in VMS and which are "likely/assumed to be numbers". 

In other words, if you/we are going to argue that these are numbers in VMS with this logic, you/we will have to produce new number noun and/or pronouns in numerical multiplicity that have never been expressed in history in terms of mathematics. Therefore, claims in this direction will not go beyond futile efforts that will not be possible to prove. In addition, we also see that the VMS author expresses the numbers between the texts & pages in the forms we already know and use today (as like 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). 

Unfortunately, in order to confirm this idea in this point, a single element proving that these are numbers has not been presented/seen yet in reality. Some people may even think that there are encodings that use all in numbers instead of all-words throughout the entire 240 pages. In fact, the numerical multiplicity in the letter content variety of the words in which such miscellaneous words are written is more than the sign forms we need in the need to create numbers. In other words, it should be a more logical approach to say that they are not numbers, since the number of types of letters in them are numerically higher than required in mathematical expressions.

We, on the other hand, can read these words with our ATA transcription, and since we read many sentences in a meaningful way, we know clearly that the content is in Turkish, and we know that when a question has two different answers, only one of tham to be correct but not all of tham. 

In other words, if the parts we read are in Turkish, it is not another language, and since we can read, these are not numbers either.

Kind regards,

Now I will explain to you the meaning of one of the words I gave an example in the table above. (When I have free time, I examine and read other words and add them in the form of explanations on our own turkicresearch.com website.) According to our ATA transcription, we read this word as like "JLAĞN / JİLAĞAİĞN" in Latin letters. But you'll probably see multiple conjoined vowels if you read this with the EVA variants.

[attachment=7272]

This word, which the author wrote in the form of "JLAĞAĞN / JİLAĞAİĞN", should be the word CALAĞAN, which is present in our language today, on the basis of phonetic value proximity. This word should literally mean "self stinging/scratching or clinging ability". I base this opinion on the semantic evidence of the words in our language, as I explain the word structure below.

Thus, there is a plant name that is still used in some dialects of Turkey Turkish today. This plant is called "CALAĞAN OTU" (the nettle-plant). This actually means "ISIRGAN OTU" (nettle). Here we see that the word "CALAĞAN" and the word "ISIRGAN" are synonymous in same meaning based on one of the root meaning of both.

The word "ISIRGAN" in Turkey Turkish is the root of the verb "ISIRMAK / ISIR-" (biting/bite). 

The word "CALAĞAN" should be the form of the word "CALAH" (CALAK in some dialects) with the suffix "-ĞAN/-GAN".

The root word CALAH/CALAK is still used today to mean "joining/attachment-point or attach/attachment-area". When the suffix -ĞAN is added to the end of the word, this word has become CALAĞAN. Even if this word is the word CALAH-ĞAN here, while its phonetic form was transformed according to the phonetic harmony rule in Turkish, the -H- sound in the middle was dropped and the word became CALAĞAN. While forming compound words or word affixes, the phonetic structure changes a little bit with the fall of one of the adjacent-near-phonetic valued sounds, and there are thousands of examples of this in Turkish and are known.

In this case, the meaning of the word CALAĞAN is "having the ability to attaching/holding or jagged/adhere in terms of structural features". We can also express this briefly as "the one with a scratchy/rough (scabrous) structure". If you use this plant name in the form of "CALAĞAN OTU" ("calağan" plant), then we understand that this plant is probably a plant that has the ability to attach / stick in (rough and/or itchy) terms of its surface-tissue structure. In this similar sense in English shortly, the "CALAĞAN PLANT" means "the nettle-plant" or "nettle".

However, since we cannot see the word "OTU" meaning "plant" next to this name "calağan OTU", we understand that the name "CALAĞAN" (without the OTU word) is an any plant with "adhesion ability / attachment feature" and/or (with it's root meaning expression), it means the surface texture of anythink/any-material which has a rough and holding/nettle/scratchy structure. 

Please see the mentioned "CALAĞAN OTU" plant name on the following dictionary page:
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You can see the word CALAH here:
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In some dialects the word change as phonetically as like ÇALAGAN with in term of its expanded and diversified meaning.
Please see this dictionary page with its meaning content here:
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As a possible relationship between the root word CALA and the word ÇALI, they may also have diverged from a common root word in the distant past.
You can see the word ÇALI here:
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In other words, if you see this CALAĞAN word on the page on which a plant is drawn, we must understand that the surface of that plant (leaves or stems or their surfaces in the sense of both) is a stinging, needle-like or rough or thorny structure etc. This word may not necessarily be used for a plant because the root meaning content does not include meanings within the context of mere plants, but includes general and descriptive meanings.

Thanks,


Note: More detailed explanations have been made in the Turkish explanation we made in terms of the meaning-correspondence of this word on our web-site.

[attachment=7311]

In today's Turkey-Turkish dictionaries, we can see 2 different words that are close to this word phonetically, which the author wrote in the form of ÇOLAK / ÇÖLEK, (in terms of their phonetic value). 

The first of these words is the word ÇOLAKA. 
The second of these words is the word ÇÜLEK. 

While one of these words means "early-season vegetable" (turfanda çıkan sebze) , the other word means "mallow" (hibiscus malva / MALVACEAE). 

You can see the meaning of the word ÇOLAKA on the dictionary page here:
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You can check the meaning of the word ÇÜLEK on the dictionary page here:
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In this VM-ninja page, I have been share some comments before about how realistic the drawings made by the author are. So, I will not go into this detail again. Moreover, botanists will explain more clearly what the different leaf shapes of different varieties of this MALVACEAE plant species look like. In any case, when the sentences on the different pages where this word is used will read, it probably be understood more clearly which meaning of them is the word.

You can see some articles about the use of this plant among the people on the internet. Various uses of this plant are mentioned in order to make it difficult or prevent pregnancy.

In rural areas (in Anatolia-Turkey) in the past, fresh hibiscus branches are used as abortifacient. As the recorded info, Pregnancies had been prevented as a result of using this plant of local mechanical effect and/or infection. As far as I understand from the articles I have read, in the past, as a practice, it was believed that a medicine prepared from this plant or its use prevented pregnancy.
(See the page 16 > "Memleketimizin kırsal bölgelerinde, taze ebegümeci dalı çocuk düşürücü olarak kullanılmaktadır. Lokal olarak meydana gelen mekanik etki ve oluşan enfeksiyon sonucu gebelik önlenebilir.")
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Also see; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Note: In some of the local areas in Anatolia I believe, some type of the MALVA plant is calling as "ısırgan otu" (it is nettle-grass or stinging nettle or dead nettle or stinger in English -?- ) and that same plant varieties are also called as "ebegümeci" (hibiscus) among the people in other area. Since I do not know about plants, I cannot explain the reason for these different names, but it is already known that completely different plants can be named with the same name or the same plant can be named with different names.


Thank you for taking your time to read.

---------

Note: For English-speaking readers who want to better understand Turkish by emailing us privately, I can suggest that they can follow some general videos like below. Thanks.

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[attachment=8111]

While making the following explanations here, as always, we first read a word by adhering to our ATA-aflabe transcription table. We show this word as it was written approximately 600 years ago, and we also give its spelling in modern Turkish and different dialects. Thus, anyone who understands linguistics will be able to see the phonetic closeness. Moreover, as always, we find and show the spelling of these words in various dictionaries, including historical dictionaries. Thus, the number of words overlapping with the drawings, being on the same pages, was 110. 

This word is mentioned in the source MS-work called [İbni Mühenna, Lugat], which is a dictionary manuscript written before 1310 (used in before and after the Ottoman Empire time ).
Source dictionary:
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The author wrote this plant as "ÇÖYEiN" about 600 years ago. In terms of phonetic value change, only the letter "i" seems to have decreased in about 600 years. At the same time, it can be said that the letter "Y" has turned into "Ğ" and "V" sounds today. However, the "Y" and "Ğ" forms are still found (in the dialects of the Azerbaijani region). This is a very small/insignificant change in phonetic/sound-value in the intervening 600 years. Moreover, this sound change is widely described/very-familiar by linguists. The Latin genus name of this plant is known as Gypsophila. The Modern-Turkish word "çöven" is also called "çöğen" in some dialects. In Azeri-Turkish and Turkmen, it appears as "çoğan" ("ÇÖYEN-OTU" in some dialects). It is in the form of "ÇOĞAN" in Old Kipchak-Turkish. It is also mentioned as "çoğan" (چغان) in the Ottoman "Tarama Dictionary". In Anatolian dialects (in modern times), the forms "cöğen", "cöven" and "çuvan" are often used. It is also seen as "Çevgen" in some sources.

This Çöven/Çöyen is a medicinal plant that comes from the clove family and grows widely in Turkey. We can say that this plant, which is 50-120 cm tall, has pink /white flowers. In some sources, nearly 90 species are mentioned. The leaf and flower structure of this plant varies between some of this family species.

These plant genera exist in a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but a greater variety of species can also be seen as endemic in various places throughout Europe and Asia. 

See ÇÖVEN in wikipedia:
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You can look at the following dictionary pages as resources:
ÇOĞAN/ÇÖYEN (page 94, 186, 188 in this source)> "Historical-dictionary-of-ottoman-turkish-terms-for-gardens-and-gardening" (Dumbarton Oaks, Trustees for Harvard University.) > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
&
ÇÖVEN > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
&
ÇÖĞEN > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
&
ÇOGAN > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Page from which we quote this leaf image 1:
Gypsophila perfoliata L.VU
Dobrogea, Gura Portiței, By Claudia Deleanu
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Page from which we quote this leaf image 2:
By Creator Богданович Светлана > Publisher iNaturalist
> Record licence You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....censes/by-nc/4.0/
> References You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..../photos/280981554
> Identifier You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....1554/original.jpg
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This Gypsophila flower photo-1 By Jeff Forman: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

This Gypsophila flower photo-2 By Jianstargazer:
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Note 1: We have very limited information about the properties of the plant. In Anatolia, this plant is used in the production of foods such as halva and ice cream. It is known that it is also used in the preparation of medicine in the medical field. It is written in some sources that this plant is mostly used in the composition of a kind of diuretic drug. For more about this plant, It is necessary to consult botanists to get more precise information about the total number and characteristics of all Gypsophila/ÇÖYEN species.
See:
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Note 2: Another plant name was also read on the mentioned page 8v. However, I would like to remind you that we have shown evidence in our previous statements that the author herself/himself is trying to graft some different plants together. Sometimes, while the author talks about the benefits of certain plants, she/he can also reference other plants on the same page. We have done multiple readings on these and have mentioned some of them in our previous comments here. For this reason, I will not go into details on this subject again here.


Thanks,

Perhaps we should read EVA t as v/b, as I already suggested?