15-04-2024, 02:17 PM
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15-04-2024, 06:46 PM
Never seen it done! No one has been able to make the "translational" system work in the opposite direction. As René said.
It would seem to be a reasonable challenge for those who claim to know the "language" of the VMs. Every language has a fairly fixed vocabulary of common terms. [sun, moon, light, dark, you know... good, evil] - whatever it takes. Do these terms occur in the VMs *in the language of the proposed solution*?
There was some discussion of how to evaluate the proposed solutions to various linguistic translations. The evaluation is going to require some type of demonstration, and this sort of challenge should be part of it.
It would seem to be a reasonable challenge for those who claim to know the "language" of the VMs. Every language has a fairly fixed vocabulary of common terms. [sun, moon, light, dark, you know... good, evil] - whatever it takes. Do these terms occur in the VMs *in the language of the proposed solution*?
There was some discussion of how to evaluate the proposed solutions to various linguistic translations. The evaluation is going to require some type of demonstration, and this sort of challenge should be part of it.
15-04-2024, 09:41 PM
[quote="pjburkshire" pid='58865' dateline='1713091528']
[quote="Ahmet Ardıç" pid='58864' dateline='1713088073']
[Have you had any luck at all with any word on f67v2?
What about words for Sun or Moon? There are multiple illustrations with images of the Sun and the Moon. I would expect these word would be in the text somewhere.
I believe the swirly thing in the box in the middle of f67v2 is a soul, not a star.]
We have not examined the 67v2 page you mentioned (like many other pages) in detail before. In fact, we have not yet had time to read most of the VM-pages in this entire manuscript in detail.
However, I looked at the page 67v2 you mentioned, and on this page, I read the old Turkish words (OıLAX ERÜ) meaning 'Capricorn' (written towards 11 o'clock direction). I also remember reading these words on another page that had a goat-like drawing on it.
Also on this page (67v2) the word "ay'ı" (the moon) is read as being at the 16 o'clock position of this circular drawing.
In addition, the words "sarı ışıklı" (meaning "yellow lighted") are written as "sarı çlapax" (towards 1 o'clock direction). In a way, the closest phonetic equivalent to these words in modern Turkish is "sarı-şılabık" (yellow-bright). (Here we see that the phonetic form of the initial word hasn't changed. The part that has changed slightly, though having a close sound value, is the secondary part of this word.) These words mean "yellow-lighted." These words likely served as synonyms for the word "gün/güneş" (sun) or were used as an adjective.
On this page, the words in the parts resembling the lighted arms of the sun-like drawing appear to be written in short expressions. We can partly read them easily during a simple first reading. However, after scanning dictionaries and articles belonging to ancient dialects, we may have the chance to interpret them clearly as a whole.
At 17 o'clock direction, there are the words "oğul gözek" (literally translated as "one who looking at the boy with a telescope or a binocular"). However, these are most likely words meaning "a pregnant woman who expecting/hope for a boy child" in terms of meaning.
On this page, we also read other words. These words, as understood at first glance, do not seem to form complete sentences but are written in the form of short expressions. However, after scanning all the words on the page in the old Turkish literature (which will not be a quick analysis and, on the contrary, will require a serious amount of time to work on), it may be possible to reinterpret whether these are seperate expressions or these are written in some sentence form.
There are other words that we have read quickly here, and we have not even added most of these words to our VM-word/dictionary list on our own turkicresearch page yet. As usual, we plan to proceed by finding each word in historical dictionaries.
In general, the words on this page appear to be disconnected expressions in terms of meaning. In this regard, it evokes the idea of a game or entertainment resembling a game played by placing a stick or arrow-like object in the middle and rotating it by hand, similar to the hour hand of a clock. This may generally serve a function akin to a game played by women, like a spinning bottle game, or a type of fortune-telling involving messages about their future husbands or children.
However, we had previously read words meaning "sun" and "east" on other pages. For instance, on the map page, the word "DOGU" (east) is written in the section where the sun is drawn. Additionally, we had read words meaning "to look at the moon (closely - with a telescope/binocular or similar device)" on another page.
Although we receive many suggestions to read many pages or certain pages, we cannot continue our work according to reading orders that come outside of our working schedule/planning. Currently, we are trying to progress by reading pages in a planned and sequential manner. However, in general, we can quickly read through all the pages and form an understanding. When we analyze more words, we will be able to read more pages. For this, we need teamwork from different disciplines. Therefore, even though slowly, we will proceed step by step and adhere to a certain plan.
For now, I kindly request from you and everyone reading these comments to answer the questions I asked in my previous message by examining our comments. In other words, we would like to hear opinions on whether the examples of drawing-word correspondence we showed are real overlaps or not. Of course, we would also appreciate hearing from those who do not see real overlaps in the mentioned plant-name/drawing examples with explanations of why they think so. We especially expect people whose field of study is plant science or who know what the mentioned plants look like to interpret these drawings and the plant names we read.
Thank you for reading.
[quote="Ahmet Ardıç" pid='58864' dateline='1713088073']
[Have you had any luck at all with any word on f67v2?
What about words for Sun or Moon? There are multiple illustrations with images of the Sun and the Moon. I would expect these word would be in the text somewhere.
I believe the swirly thing in the box in the middle of f67v2 is a soul, not a star.]
We have not examined the 67v2 page you mentioned (like many other pages) in detail before. In fact, we have not yet had time to read most of the VM-pages in this entire manuscript in detail.
However, I looked at the page 67v2 you mentioned, and on this page, I read the old Turkish words (OıLAX ERÜ) meaning 'Capricorn' (written towards 11 o'clock direction). I also remember reading these words on another page that had a goat-like drawing on it.
Also on this page (67v2) the word "ay'ı" (the moon) is read as being at the 16 o'clock position of this circular drawing.
In addition, the words "sarı ışıklı" (meaning "yellow lighted") are written as "sarı çlapax" (towards 1 o'clock direction). In a way, the closest phonetic equivalent to these words in modern Turkish is "sarı-şılabık" (yellow-bright). (Here we see that the phonetic form of the initial word hasn't changed. The part that has changed slightly, though having a close sound value, is the secondary part of this word.) These words mean "yellow-lighted." These words likely served as synonyms for the word "gün/güneş" (sun) or were used as an adjective.
On this page, the words in the parts resembling the lighted arms of the sun-like drawing appear to be written in short expressions. We can partly read them easily during a simple first reading. However, after scanning dictionaries and articles belonging to ancient dialects, we may have the chance to interpret them clearly as a whole.
At 17 o'clock direction, there are the words "oğul gözek" (literally translated as "one who looking at the boy with a telescope or a binocular"). However, these are most likely words meaning "a pregnant woman who expecting/hope for a boy child" in terms of meaning.
On this page, we also read other words. These words, as understood at first glance, do not seem to form complete sentences but are written in the form of short expressions. However, after scanning all the words on the page in the old Turkish literature (which will not be a quick analysis and, on the contrary, will require a serious amount of time to work on), it may be possible to reinterpret whether these are seperate expressions or these are written in some sentence form.
There are other words that we have read quickly here, and we have not even added most of these words to our VM-word/dictionary list on our own turkicresearch page yet. As usual, we plan to proceed by finding each word in historical dictionaries.
In general, the words on this page appear to be disconnected expressions in terms of meaning. In this regard, it evokes the idea of a game or entertainment resembling a game played by placing a stick or arrow-like object in the middle and rotating it by hand, similar to the hour hand of a clock. This may generally serve a function akin to a game played by women, like a spinning bottle game, or a type of fortune-telling involving messages about their future husbands or children.
However, we had previously read words meaning "sun" and "east" on other pages. For instance, on the map page, the word "DOGU" (east) is written in the section where the sun is drawn. Additionally, we had read words meaning "to look at the moon (closely - with a telescope/binocular or similar device)" on another page.
Although we receive many suggestions to read many pages or certain pages, we cannot continue our work according to reading orders that come outside of our working schedule/planning. Currently, we are trying to progress by reading pages in a planned and sequential manner. However, in general, we can quickly read through all the pages and form an understanding. When we analyze more words, we will be able to read more pages. For this, we need teamwork from different disciplines. Therefore, even though slowly, we will proceed step by step and adhere to a certain plan.
For now, I kindly request from you and everyone reading these comments to answer the questions I asked in my previous message by examining our comments. In other words, we would like to hear opinions on whether the examples of drawing-word correspondence we showed are real overlaps or not. Of course, we would also appreciate hearing from those who do not see real overlaps in the mentioned plant-name/drawing examples with explanations of why they think so. We especially expect people whose field of study is plant science or who know what the mentioned plants look like to interpret these drawings and the plant names we read.
Thank you for reading.
15-04-2024, 09:49 PM
(14-04-2024, 11:26 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[That's a good idea for any proposed solution. Take a list of generic words: sun, moon, star, planet, soul, leaf, stem, flower, root, water, night, day, hot, cold, etc., translate them *into* Voynichese according to the proposed system, and see if they exist in the VMs text.]
Dear Resale,
What you say is already part of what we do, and we share the results we obtain in our articles, in our comments here, and on our own page. But we hope that you and other readers/researchers on this voynich-ninja page will answer the specific question we pose here. When you look at the drawings on the pages where the plant names we show here are written, can you tell us whether these drawings are similar to the plant names we read? Look, the way it was written 600 years ago is seen in exactly the same form in today's modern Turkish. In other words, we do not make a comment in terms of linguistics because we are talking about plant names written in the same way 1/1. In this case, will you tell us whether the drawings resemble these plants?
Dear Ruby Novacna,
When you look at the drawings on the pages where the plant names we show here are written, can you tell us whether these drawings are similar to the plant names we read? Look, the way it was written 600 years ago is seen in exactly the same form in today's modern Turkish. In other words, we do not make a comment in terms of linguistics because we are talking about plant names written in the same way 1/1. In this case, will you tell us whether the drawings resemble these plants?
15-04-2024, 10:16 PM
Dear Rene,
Our method is very clear, and we have explained it in our article. Our method, used the ATA alphabet transcription, enabled us to identify words matching the drawings. Furthermore, we have read numerous complete sentences and some entire pages. We presented these findings at national and international symposiums (attended by linguists specializing in Old Turkish studies). Consequently, the articles we presented to experts in the field have been published in necessary journals and booklets. I am someone who speaks the language I claim for the VM and am largely familiar with the ancient vocabulary of these languages. I have been researching Old Turkish since 1992. The methods we use are the same methods linguists once used to read ancient inscriptions that were once unreadable. We have explained these methods multiple times and included them in our articles. We have also explained why we share information about our work on this Voynich Ninja page. Now, we are talking about clearly readable plant names instead of a new question. The plant names (written based on the ATA alphabet transcription,) essentially written by the author 600 years ago, are spelled the same today in modern Turkish. In other words, for these examples of both ancient and modern forms, the comparison of word spelling and sound structure is 1/1 the same. In this case, our question is whether the drawings on the pages where we have given these plant names resemble these plants or not. It would be better to proceed by receiving the answer to this simple question we asked. However, I do not understand the purpose of asking new questions instead of answering these simple questions. Moreover, we have already answered all the questions asked here again on these Voynich-ninja pages before.
If we talk about overlaps, they are not limited to just plant names. Some verb words overlap with the actions depicted in the drawings. We have shown overlaps in names of stars and other celestial bodies. We have shown overlaps in animal names. Currently, we have shown a total of 112 various drawing-word overlaps.
Now, I want to ask you: Do you find the drawings on the pages where the plant names I shared in my previous comment are written resembling these plants, or do you not find them resembling?
Thanks
Our method is very clear, and we have explained it in our article. Our method, used the ATA alphabet transcription, enabled us to identify words matching the drawings. Furthermore, we have read numerous complete sentences and some entire pages. We presented these findings at national and international symposiums (attended by linguists specializing in Old Turkish studies). Consequently, the articles we presented to experts in the field have been published in necessary journals and booklets. I am someone who speaks the language I claim for the VM and am largely familiar with the ancient vocabulary of these languages. I have been researching Old Turkish since 1992. The methods we use are the same methods linguists once used to read ancient inscriptions that were once unreadable. We have explained these methods multiple times and included them in our articles. We have also explained why we share information about our work on this Voynich Ninja page. Now, we are talking about clearly readable plant names instead of a new question. The plant names (written based on the ATA alphabet transcription,) essentially written by the author 600 years ago, are spelled the same today in modern Turkish. In other words, for these examples of both ancient and modern forms, the comparison of word spelling and sound structure is 1/1 the same. In this case, our question is whether the drawings on the pages where we have given these plant names resemble these plants or not. It would be better to proceed by receiving the answer to this simple question we asked. However, I do not understand the purpose of asking new questions instead of answering these simple questions. Moreover, we have already answered all the questions asked here again on these Voynich-ninja pages before.
If we talk about overlaps, they are not limited to just plant names. Some verb words overlap with the actions depicted in the drawings. We have shown overlaps in names of stars and other celestial bodies. We have shown overlaps in animal names. Currently, we have shown a total of 112 various drawing-word overlaps.
Now, I want to ask you: Do you find the drawings on the pages where the plant names I shared in my previous comment are written resembling these plants, or do you not find them resembling?
Thanks
15-04-2024, 10:27 PM
Dear pjburkshire,
You wrote: "I have trouble reading Shakespeare from 425 years ago and English is my native language." The question we are asking here is simple. Just as you read the plant names written today on the page we read, could the drawings of the plants on that page belong to the plants we mentioned/read? To answer this question, you don't need to be a linguist, have read articles, or engage in hypothesis reading. The author wrote these names 600 years ago in the same form as they are written today. Do the mentioned plants resemble the drawings made? Is it difficult to understand this simple question? We suggest that everyone who reads our comments share their thoughts on this matter. I believe that those who do not accept our suggestion will not comment at all. Yet, I thought that we deserved the courtesy of answering our simple question simply and explaining the reasons. Instead of doing so, I don't understand the purpose of asking new questions right after our question.
Sincerely,
You wrote: "I have trouble reading Shakespeare from 425 years ago and English is my native language." The question we are asking here is simple. Just as you read the plant names written today on the page we read, could the drawings of the plants on that page belong to the plants we mentioned/read? To answer this question, you don't need to be a linguist, have read articles, or engage in hypothesis reading. The author wrote these names 600 years ago in the same form as they are written today. Do the mentioned plants resemble the drawings made? Is it difficult to understand this simple question? We suggest that everyone who reads our comments share their thoughts on this matter. I believe that those who do not accept our suggestion will not comment at all. Yet, I thought that we deserved the courtesy of answering our simple question simply and explaining the reasons. Instead of doing so, I don't understand the purpose of asking new questions right after our question.
Sincerely,
15-04-2024, 10:33 PM
Dear nablator,
Would you like to answer the simple question we asked?
We have read some names with the ATA alphabet transcription, similar to which linguists have been doing for more than a hundred years. And now the specific question we are asking is very clear, without any details that would create confusion. The author wrote some plant names just like today. Do the drawings on these pages resemble the plants mentioned or not? That's the question. Could you please have the courtesy to answer?
Thanks,
Would you like to answer the simple question we asked?
We have read some names with the ATA alphabet transcription, similar to which linguists have been doing for more than a hundred years. And now the specific question we are asking is very clear, without any details that would create confusion. The author wrote some plant names just like today. Do the drawings on these pages resemble the plants mentioned or not? That's the question. Could you please have the courtesy to answer?
Thanks,
15-04-2024, 10:42 PM
Dear pjburkshire,
Dear frends,
You can see ATA named "base alphabet transcription" here >
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
For syllabic characters created from base alphabet characters, the "concatenation logic of simple alphabet-characters" can be seen on this page >
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thanks,
Dear frends,
You can see ATA named "base alphabet transcription" here >
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
For syllabic characters created from base alphabet characters, the "concatenation logic of simple alphabet-characters" can be seen on this page >
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thanks,
15-04-2024, 10:50 PM
(15-04-2024, 06:46 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[Never seen it done! No one has been able to make the "translational" system work in the opposite direction. As René said.
It would seem to be a reasonable challenge for those who claim to know the "language" of the VMs. Every language has a fairly fixed vocabulary of common terms. [sun, moon, light, dark, you know... good, evil] - whatever it takes. Do these terms occur in the VMs *in the language of the proposed solution*?
There was some discussion of how to evaluate the proposed solutions to various linguistic translations. The evaluation is going to require some type of demonstration, and this sort of challenge should be part of it.]
Dear R.Sale,
We already have read multiple words like sun, moon, light and so on. More than 1000 words were read. So far, we have shown (on our own page) that 112 of them match the drawings. Now here I simply asked a few simple questions about some plant drawings. Would you like to answer this simple and understandable question? So, after this point we can start talking one step further about VM readings.
Kind regards,
15-04-2024, 11:02 PM
(15-04-2024, 10:27 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You wrote: "I have trouble reading Shakespeare from 425 years ago and English is my native language." The question we are asking here is simple. Just as you read the plant names written today on the page we read, could the drawings of the plants on that page belong to the plants we mentioned/read?
I have not had a lot of luck identifying plants. The only plant that I recognize is the waterlily on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .