The Voynich Ninja

Full Version: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
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(11-08-2020, 09:58 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ahmet, if you use the Full Edit option, you can delete irrelevant parts of a quoted passage and keep only the part to which you are replying. Just be careful you don't accidentally remove the end-quote marker
Code:
[quote]...relevant part of quoted passage here...[/quote]
.


It will make the relevant parts of your post easier to read. When multiple nested quotes are repeated, the post tends to become very long.


Yes, I haven't learned how to use this page yet because I haven't fully reviewed it. For example, I wanted to share an image before, I couldn't do it either. Anyway, I guess I'm not good at these things. It's easier for me to use an old-school mechanical typewriter for sure.
There are a couple of ways to share an image:

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(11-08-2020, 06:40 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.British Museum  related questions:

1- Why did this museum not want to buy much older manuscripts (which parts are only/unique in the world) from Voynich's catalog instead of buying only 137 parts (which mostly printed and some of tham not much valuable works such as a print palimpsest) such as ordinary and particularly valuable works?

2- If this deal was made in 1902 and only 137 pieces of artifacts changed hands, why did this whole list (Voynich-written list-book) stamped by British Museum in 1901 with their seal?

[You can see this BM 1901 seal on the page of this source Source: A First (-Ninth) list of books offered for sale. {With “A First list of books, second edition”, “A Supplement to the Eight list”, and “Index of books contained in List I-VI.”} London 1898-1902 / Author: Voynich, Wilfred Michael, / The British Library System Number is 003818912 / Shelfmark S.C. 1097.]

3- British Library has this list book which has been sealed by British Museum in 1901 with their ‘year-1901-seal’. Why the BM sealed whole list? If BM was bought some of these books why they sealed whole this list book?

4- I visited this library for my research a while ago; I would not be able to see this list-book written by Voynich without permission. I have never been able to reach the original paper book. After a while, I was able to see the photo film of this work because the officer wanted to help by taking initiative on herself (without having a special permit before). Then I saw the 1901 and 1902 BM seals on this photo film of the book. In your opinion, myself as a member reader of this library, why I can physically examine a manuscript older than a thousand years old, but I can't see & examine an ordinary paper book written in 1901 itself ? And why I can see the photo picture of it only after if I will get a special permission? Do you think this situation is normal?

5- Most of The rare books and manuscripts were listed by Voynich in his catalogue books were sold by Voynich or by his wife in time. Some of the list-books written by Voynich, (which has short-descriptions of about 12,700 to 13250 rare books, and let’s say about 13000 rare books and manuscripts) were listed in these list-books.

Dear Ahmet,

please note that:
- Voynich was dealing with early printed books (including incunabula) most of his life, and only ventured into deailing in manuscripts much later. His early catalogues are mostly filled with printed books. There is hopefully a very informative talk about this in the UK in the coming months, but this is depending on Corona progress.

- The 137 books in question were special in the sense that they were all unique. At the time there was no other known copy of them. Voynich asked too much money for them, and the BM wasn't going to buy. In the end some rich clients decided to buy them and donate them to the library

- The so-called eighth list of books that included this lot was printed in June 1902, but there are several other 'lists of books' and 'catalogues' (two different series) printed by him in all years around that time.

That should answer the first three points.

I have actually been fortunate enough to see the 137 in the stacks of the BL a few years ago. They will not help us to understand the mysteries of the Voynich MS.

Indeed, there are many unknown details throughout his life, but there is also an enormous amount known about him, that has been unearthed by professional researchers, academics, journalist who have access to sources not available to the 'common people like us'. A great deal has been written about him, by the likes of Arnold Hunt, Gerry Kennedy, Rafal Prinke, and several more - too many to name.
Arnold Hunt has actually read the diary of Robert Proctor of the BM, which gives details about Voynich's earliest dealings.

Whether Voynich was a liar or not?
Rafal Prinke presented the following quote about Voynich from one of his anti-Russian friends in his early years in London:

"He [Wojnicz] had exuberant phantasy and took its results for reality, in which he solemnly believed. Later he became [...] a very practical antiquarian books dealer and made a considerable fortune, which he was always happy to share with anyone. And so in that man lived in agreement – incredible phantasy (others call it lies), truly American pragmatism and good heart."

See also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

But I have much (much!) more.
(12-08-2020, 06:29 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(11-08-2020, 06:40 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.British Museum  related questions:

1- Why did this museum not want to buy much older manuscripts (which parts are only/unique in the world) from Voynich's catalog instead of buying only 137 parts (which mostly printed and some of tham not much valuable works such as a print palimpsest) such as ordinary and particularly valuable works?

2- If this deal was made in 1902 and only 137 pieces of artifacts changed hands, why did this whole list (Voynich-written list-book) stamped by British Museum in 1901 with their seal?

[You can see this BM 1901 seal on the page of this source Source: A First (-Ninth) list of books offered for sale. {With “A First list of books, second edition”, “A Supplement to the Eight list”, and “Index of books contained in List I-VI.”} London 1898-1902 / Author: Voynich, Wilfred Michael, / The British Library System Number is 003818912 / Shelfmark S.C. 1097.]

3- British Library has this list book which has been sealed by British Museum in 1901 with their ‘year-1901-seal’. Why the BM sealed whole list? If BM was bought some of these books why they sealed whole this list book?

4- I visited this library for my research a while ago; I would not be able to see this list-book written by Voynich without permission. I have never been able to reach the original paper book. After a while, I was able to see the photo film of this work because the officer wanted to help by taking initiative on herself (without having a special permit before). Then I saw the 1901 and 1902 BM seals on this photo film of the book. In your opinion, myself as a member reader of this library, why I can physically examine a manuscript older than a thousand years old, but I can't see & examine an ordinary paper book written in 1901 itself ? And why I can see the photo picture of it only after if I will get a special permission? Do you think this situation is normal?

5- Most of The rare books and manuscripts were listed by Voynich in his catalogue books were sold by Voynich or by his wife in time. Some of the list-books written by Voynich, (which has short-descriptions of about 12,700 to 13250 rare books, and let’s say about 13000 rare books and manuscripts) were listed in these list-books.

Dear Ahmet,

please note that:
- Voynich was dealing with early printed books (including incunabula) most of his life, and only ventured into deailing in manuscripts much later. His early catalogues are mostly filled with printed books. There is hopefully a very informative talk about this in the UK in the coming months, but this is depending on Corona progress.

- The 137 books in question were special in the sense that they were all unique. At the time there was no other known copy of them. Voynich asked too much money for them, and the BM wasn't going to buy. In the end some rich clients decided to buy them and donate them to the library

- The so-called eighth list of books that included this lot was printed in June 1902, but there are several other 'lists of books' and 'catalogues' (two different series) printed by him in all years around that time.

That should answer the first three points.

I have actually been fortunate enough to see the 137 in the stacks of the BL a few years ago. They will not help us to understand the mysteries of the Voynich MS.

Indeed, there are many unknown details throughout his life, but there is also an enormous amount known about him, that has been unearthed by professional researchers, academics, journalist who have access to sources not available to the 'common people like us'. A great deal has been written about him, by the likes of Arnold Hunt, Gerry Kennedy, Rafal Prinke, and several more - too many to name.
Arnold Hunt has actually read the diary of Robert Proctor of the BM, which gives details about Voynich's earliest dealings.

Whether Voynich was a liar or not?
Rafal Prinke presented the following quote about Voynich from one of his anti-Russian friends in his early years in London:

"He [Wojnicz] had exuberant phantasy and took its results for reality, in which he solemnly believed. Later he became [...] a very practical antiquarian books dealer and made a considerable fortune, which he was always happy to share with anyone. And so in that man lived in agreement – incredible phantasy (others call it lies), truly American pragmatism and good heart."

See also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

But I have much (much!) more.



Dear Rene,

The answer of this question is important to me and I haven't fully learned your opinion on this matter. Why did the British Museum seal in 1901 on the full-list-book (in which thousands of rear books and manuscripts were described) if they traded between them in 1902 ? Also, have members of two of the world's wealthiest families sponsored just only 137 books together, but not for the all list when the museum sealed the whole list on that book in about one year before the real deal? Do you think this seems logical? In my opinion, what is told and written on these topics as if they are true may overlap with the existing evidence, but it does not coincide with either corporate behavior requirements and logic.

I don't think there is enough focus on invisible areas, and I strongly believe there is a completely different story in this invisible area. Which documents that didn't want public to see should have been removed.

These subjects are not under investigation about events that happened 500 or 1000 years ago. It has only been about 100 years.

For example, 100 years ago, they have a customs and passport regime in Europe and in the Ottoman Empire. Mr. Voynich traveled to various parts of the world, including many European countries. But, we can not find all entry and exit records in the customs archives of the European states, included between the Siberia to UK travel in 1890. I know there are people who have worked on this subject but they have been able to identify very few of the travel records. Presumably he had passports with two different names at the same time and used them only to go to certain areas.

Why the British Library and Museum and/or other institutions did not share that original paper-book of his written this lists-book and all other related archive papers with researchers? Why they did not scan and share all documents over internet by broadcasting. I think we all as researchers should write together to them and demand it to they do this.

I do not think the British Museum, neither past nor present, was transparent in explaining the source of some artifacts. It is said that there are thousands of historical artifacts in the British Museum warehouses that have not been exhibited yet.

Are we sure that the British Museum has not violated the ethical rules and laws in the past? When we examine the BM history a little, we can see that the name of this institution was referred with on the same page with some "scientific" forgery works together.

Mr. Rene, you as a scientist, speak according to the evidence you can find, of course. Voynich was dealing with not only early printed books and incunabula, but he was dealing with manuscripts too and it was much earlier then known. However according to the current evidence lets say he was dealing mostly with early printed books in early period in his business. Where was the real source of those books? How can we believe that stated past information shared by Voynich?

To summarize that all, it is mathematics, physics, and logic itself that proves to us that the documents shown on these subjects may probably to be partially fabricated and that some "evidence" was manipulated in various ways. Which including that 137 artifacts issue, and for me the history of this person was built based on some historical balloon stories and manipulated documents and of-course concealed and destroyed documents can not help us to understand that VMS story for sure. Otherwise, 100 years have passed only and everything would have been enlightened. So, we will give hints that it could be a completely different story with our own work.

Thank you,
(11-08-2020, 11:16 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are a couple of ways to share an image:

  • If you want to link an image from the Web while in Edit Mode, you can click the computer-monitor icon above the message window and it will let you paste a URL in the text box that pops up.
  • If you want to upload an image from your computer, you can select the New Attachment: button under the message window and select your file. Wait a moment for it to upload and then click the [Add Attachment] button on the right under the message window. This attaches the image (it will be displayed at the bottom after your message*).

*If you want the image inside your post, then you can click the Insert Attachment button that appears after you have uploaded the file. It will insert a number [1234567] and you can cut and paste that into any part of your message (make sure you include the square brackets [] ).


to test for image upload
[attachment=4663] OCGÖZ (açgöz = greedy, insatiable) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[attachment=4664] ÇLEK / ÇİLEK (çilekstrawberry) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.



Thank you
Are you suggesting that the VMs vords are equivalent to Turkish words written in a Romanized script?
(12-08-2020, 06:53 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are you suggesting that the VMs vords are equivalent to Turkish words written in a Romanized script?


Thank you for this question.

VMS is written in a mixed alphabets and Tamga letter signs which are mixture of Latin alphabet characters (mostly), Runic characters of ancient Turkish writings, Turkish-Tamga signs, and the sound value of the numbers (included 4 and 7). The Voynich alphabet consists of 24 basic single letters  and 90+  combined letters.

In VMS alphabet; The single letters could be combined to form a joint character that would share both of the other letters’ phonetic values. Combined characters can be referred to as syllable characters.

The phonetic values derived in the alphabet, account for dialects of Turkic such as Azerbaijani Turkish, Anatolian Turkish, and Uzbek Turkish. If there is more than one definition in our Latin alphabet transcription, it needs to be considered that we provided some dialects known today. This translation study is still in progress and these multiple Latin transcriptions (original VM alphabet character’s phonetic equivalents) needs to be reduced during the translations. Thus, we can reach a certain result and finalize the VM alphabet.
This is related to the method we follow in transcription sound mapping, and we chose this method because we did not know the author's dialect.

We are not considering an update on the basic alphabet characters because that currently they have taken their final form. In other words, updates will be made based on the reading progress in the near future. And the sound-equivalents in the lists will be reduced in number. Because of the synonyms of words, and sound value difference in some dialects was count most of that sound-equivalents will be removed from that lists. Thus, we will present a more simple and clear list in the near future. However, we will have read more words and sentences in this whole process. 

Syllabic Characters: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Base Characters: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Phonetic Values of Numbers: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Tamgas in VM: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[attachment=5885]

I would like to inform this group about a new finding. Last week we read the name of the onion plant that matches the drawing on VM page 100r. This plant is drawn on the top right of the 100r page. The author wrote the word ZOILAK / ZOLAK next to the drawing (According to ATA Transcription). We write this word today in the form of ZULAK

The sound value of the word seems to have changed very insignificantly over 600 years. Today, we see this word written as ZULAK in dictionaries. (By the way, we have also found examples where some words that match the drawings have not changed their sound value in 600 years.)


You can see the meaning of the word ZULAK in this dictionary link.
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The meaning of the word ZULAK / ZOLAK: "Tohuma kaçan soğan" (in Turkish).
This is the given name of an onion in the seedy period.

Note: Currently, the number of Turkish words matching the VM drawings in same page is 81. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


You can find the ATA Alphabet transcription at the links below: 

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[attachment=5886]

The word “SAZAK” – as written in Folio 34v – is directly translated as “myrtle tree" (Also known as Myrtus Communis in Latin.) / The word “SAZAK” is synonymous to the “MERSIN” tree, while its fruit is referred to as “MURT”. Provided below is a list of sources and translations for the word “SAZAK”. 

[attachment=5887] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 

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[attachment=5888] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Note 1: While drawing this plant, the author drew the stem of a sapling, the roots and branches of this plant, and the fruits, but did not draw the leaves.

Note 2: These images have no connection with the page on which they were drawn, but I have to give the following information; 


The author talked about subjects such as grafting different plants together and obtaining new products from them. In other words, the author seems to be breeding or trying to change the species by combining different plants. We know this from our VM reading studies. For this reason, some plants may possibly be referring to the author's expectations of the results obtained in these trials, mainly or entirely, what his or her estimated product will be about the trial outcome. Or the author is probably not a good illustrator. Moreover, she/he does not carry these plants with her/him while traveling and probably draws some of them as much as she/he remembers. Therefore, we do not expect all plant drawings in the manuscript to match. However, we predict that more than half of the plant drawings will have matched with their name/words and drawings.

Note 3: The author was not alone in this travel in Europe. If what we understand from our readings in the coded sections is correct, they must be 9 traveler/people in total (3 children, 3 adult men and 3 adult women).

We predict that 2 different people wrote the manuscript, and they were probably husband and wife, and they used a magnifying glass to write the manuscript. To think so, I should mention that there are some partial findings. (However, there are 4 separate hands in VM texts. Two of them are the people who write the content of the manuscript in general. The third person is the one who wrote the last page. The fourth person is probably the person who manipulated the first page and some other pages in around 1912. And wrote the name of the historical figure in first page to sell it easily, and this is probably the book-seler Voynich himself. But after a while, he gave up selling this VM book because he might be thought that he would be famous and the book looks like a kind of advertised his business too. Why  I'll explain later that we think so.)

The author must have produced this alphabet together with the person who will read it while embarking on the journey. In other words, the alphabet was specially created so that one or a few people could read the coded sections there (by using a similar lens). We think that this particular reader was Fatih Sultan Mehmet. Somewhere in the writing, the author addresses this reader in the form of PAŞAM. Therefore, may be the author could possibly be a teacher or one of the teachers of this particular reader. 

They must have written two of each page. Because with a messenger they must (probably) be sending the first copy to a certain reader. The second copy created the book you see today. There are no typos in today's second copies, as they were written by looking to the first one. The author always kept a copy to himself. This is the writing we all seeing today in the Yale reading room. There were probably typos on the first pages. These are not available today. But perhaps there may still be unsorted pages or manuscripts in the repositories of historical archives in Istanbul.

For example, the author talks about using a lens system tool in a particular sentence in VM. In addition, there are findings that we think were coding created by crushing the parchment in writing (without using ink, but by crushing certain numbers on the page). We will likely see many small numbers on the scrolls too. Here we guess that each number has an alphabetical equivalent. In other words, the sections written in ink on the main pages of the manuscript, while the narratives about the profession of the main writer, another story is told with two different types of coding. The first letters of each line are also coded from top to bottom and terminology is used here as if a diary was kept. Probably this coding must have been done for some military espionage job.

So far we have matched 81 matches, 100 sentences and 700 words. Our work continues in our free time.

I did some presentations to a number of linguists who working on about Old Turkic languages, and they were positively impressed with the results. I will talk about the subject in another university soon upon invitation. Now, we expect that this manuscript will be officially announced in some academies that "it has Turkish language content".

Generally, most of the academies and academics to whom we send files should be throwing that/our files in the trash. Because it is a family team study and I state in the cover letter of the files that I am an engineer and not a linguist by profession... etc. In this case, I think those who underestimate us must be sending our files to the trash without looking. But those who do not underestimate us and spare time for us are surprised to see the result. Of course, we are sorry for academia and academics who do not take us seriously. Because of such so-called academics, the Turkish language content of the manuscript will have taken longer to be understood by the masses.



Thank you for reading my broken English 

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[attachment=5889]

The author wrote this word in the form of ŞAILAK. Today we write in the form of ŞALAK.

The word ŞALAK is used as the names of different plants in regions where different dialects of the Turkish language are spoken. The word has meanings other than plant names. As a plant name, it is mostly used in the sense of "seedy cucumber" (“Cucumis Sativus) . But there are also communities that use this word as a name for fruits such as watermelon, melon and pumpkin.

If you look at the "Dictionary of Dialects of Turkey Turkish", you will see these meanings. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

1. Ungrown melon, watermelon.
2.Very ripe melon.
3. Raw pumpkin.
4. Cucumber (usually for overripe cucumbers)
...

Throughout most old Turkic-languages, two vowel letters in a word could follow each other (Such as: “ŞAILAK”). In modern Anatolian Turkish, generally, the second vowel in a side by side structure can be dropped while the first vowel still maintains its function (Such as: “ŞALAK”). 


The Turkish vowel harmony rule governs this concept. (Simply, vowel Harmony in Turkish means echoing phonetic value of the previous vowel in a word, that means the vowels of suffixes must mirror the final vowel of the root word being suffixed in a same phonetic value. Most suffixes must follow the rule of vowel harmony. (Such as: “ŞALAK”)) Synonymous to the word “ŞALAK”: “Salatalık”, “hıyar” (Cucumber, “Cucumis Sativus”), and “SALAK”. (SALAK: “salak” “aptal” – if directed towards a person – is defined as “idiot” or “stupid”. It refers to situations in which mental functions are not fully functioning because they are too old or too young. But if it is used for describing a plant, it also means “it is worthless to eat because it is unripe and-or very mature and watery despite being useful as a seed”. Thus, in different Turkish dialects, this word may describe either a “cucumber, zucinni, melon, watermelon or pumpkin”, as they are considered watery vegetables and fruits. However, some dialects employ the word to describe underdeveloped and-or overdeveloped “watermelon, pumpkin, melon, zuccini or cucumber”. In summary, the definition – accounting for the dialectic, geographical and cultural differences – for the word “ŞALAK” is suggested to be “an underdeveloped and-or overdeveloped watermelon, pumpkin, melon, zuccini or cucumber that is not good for consumption, for it is only used for its seeds”. However, a great majority of Turkic dialects employ this word to describe an “unconsumable cucumber that is used for its seed”.