The Voynich Ninja

(31-07-2020, 09:18 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(31-07-2020, 07:10 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is the small clues that make it so difficult to believe that it is Turkish.
Example:
Why is the Latin alphabet used when in the Eastern Roman Empire, Greek was normal.

Hi Peter,
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. mentioned Codex Cumanicus You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a few years ago.
From the Wikipedia page:

Quote:It consist of two parts. The first part consists of a dictionary in Latin, Persian and Cuman written in the Latin alphabet, and a column with Cuman verbs, names and pronouns with its meaning in Latin. The second part consists, Cuman-German dictionary, information about the Cuman grammar, and poems belonging to Petrarch.

The Codex uses the Latin alphabet and contains a mix of Romance languages (Latin and Italian), German, Cuman (a Turkic language) and Persian (which had a considerable influence on Turkish). I see no reason to exclude Turkish languages from the candidates. In his 2014 paper You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Stephen Bax mentioned reduplication in Turkic languages as a relevant feature. He also wrote:

Stephen Bax Wrote:the language in the VM could be borrowed in part from Indo-European languages such as Latin, and could be acting in part as an Abjad, like Arabic and other Semitic scripts, the underlying language could nevertheless be from a completely different language family again, such as Turkic.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also mentioned that Turkic languages are good candidates. She also pointed out some simple You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

Expanding on Emma's observations, Ahmet believes that the Turkish 'k' is represented by EVA:m m. He seems not to be aware that EVA:m almost exclusively appears at the end of lines: it looks like a special feature of the writing system. In my opinion, the best explanation is that it is an abbreviation symbol, but there may be other good explanations.
Anyway, EVA:m clusters at line ends while Turkish:k is an ordinary character. The idea that the two  are the same thing is obviously wrong.

I hope the attached image makes clear both the line-effect for EVA:m and the higher frequency of Turkish 'k'. 
EVA:m occurs in 2.6% of word-tokens, Turkish:k in 23.9% (I used the Zandbergen-Landini transliteration ignoring uncertain spaces and the Turkish file in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). The difference is huge, almost one order of magnitude. It's really strange that Ahmet did not notice.

Almost all (95.8%) Voynichese words which  include EVA:m have the character at word-end. Turkish 'k' has no preference for the word-ending position. Also from this side, things definitely don't work.


Turkish k words%: 23.9% word-final: 25.2%
Voynich m  words%:  2.6% word-final: 95.8%

We have seen so many people make the same mistakes that it's only natural to be put off. But Ahmet's efforts may still have the effect of stimulating more research on the Turkic-language hypothesis and maybe others with a greater interest for evidence will look at this. Not all evil comes to harm.

Hi,

Prof. Stephen Bax was the person who was closest to the real solution. I respect him very much. I also read his works and I thought that, Mr. Bax can claim that VMS is in Turkish just before me. That's why I explained my findings a little bit early.

However, his problem was that he did not speak Turkish or did not work with someone who knew Turkish well. But the bigger problem was that all of the existing transcriptions were wrong.

It does not matter how many times the 'K' sound you mentioned passes through the texts. Because there is no single and constant dialect language to called as Turkish in reality. In other words, when it comes to Turkish, it will be necessary to consider the differences in hundreds of dialects and sub-dialects. This is not an easy work. For example, we know that in many dialects, the sound of 'K' in some words does not change, but while in the same dialects, 'K' changed and become 'X', 'G', and 'H' sounds in some words in same dialects. In addition, the text you received for comparison was written in a dialect that uses Persian and Arabic words in large numbers. This is normal because the Ottoman empire spread over a very wide geography and Ottoman citizens were not only Turks. Also, if any person was studied Arabic at a Ottoman school, it was normal for him/her to use Arabic words more. So, The big problem is we do not yet know the author's dialect, and we have a lot of options to check and to scan. 

Probably linguists who know the Turkish language will continue to discuss different details on VMS for at least 100 years from now. However, There is no large awareness yet, of course, but it will in the future.

Thanks,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta

[quote="Aga Tentakulus" pid='39238' dateline='1596265461']


Thanks Marco and JKP for the nice examples.

What is also important, there is no color difference in the ink between the German and the VM text.
So it can be assumed that it was not written much later, and in a different place.

But the German is also supported by the crowns and merlons. There is no contradiction.
I won't even talk about the plant world.
Art style and clothing speak for themselves.

The syllable weave is seductive in Turkish.
As you wrote.
yapmak = basic form, "yap-yor-um" activity, time, person packed into one word.
yapyorum = to do-now-I = I am doing now.
yapyorsun= you do now.


Hello Mr. Tentakulus,

The words you marked by placing them in a red ring in the section of the image of the woman holding the surgical cut in her abdomen are not in German.

I think the top mark is a type of sewing needle for the surgical use. This is like a half moon and there is a hand grip. 
This also looks like 'ER' tamga sign. ER means husband, man and soldier. The word under it is written ANEĞ / ANAĞ and this is voiced as 'mother' in today's Turkish.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The word right next to the word ANEĞ is read as MUÇAN. It is voiced and written as MACUN in today's Turkish. According to linguists, the origin of the word is Arabic. So there is a very small voice change. I 
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Here in the sentence just above the drawing of a woman lying on the floor and holding her belly, it says:
OYÇCO SAĞN ÇYU ÜLCİEK ÇCK
If she/he wrote this sentence today, she/he would write: 
OYUCU SANCIYOR ÖLECEK ÇOCUK (mostly look like in Azerbaijani Turkish dialect)
Explanation: Her cut/cavity (surgery incision area) is in pain, the child will die.

We analyzed this sentence on our wen page. You can look there for more information.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

So, again, nothing in German.

The explanation note you wrote about Turkish is correct.
In other words, it is possible to translate a single Turkish word with one sentence in English. This makes difficult to translate most sentences, so it is difficult for Turks to learn for European languages and I think the same is true when Europeans learning Turkish language. I always appreciate when I see a Turkish speaking European, and I also think these people are smart people.

Your These notes are correct:
yapmak = basic form, "yap-yor-um" activity, time, person packed into one word.
yapyorum = to do-now-I = I am doing now.
yapyorsun= you do now.

Thanks,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta

(01-08-2020, 05:52 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am particularly obsessed by parallels and good parallels for features in the VMS are often impossible to find.
But in this case You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. pointed out a great one: the alchemical herbal Vicenza Bertoliana MS 362 (sample page from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). 

• The same word ("rot")
  
• In a similar manuscript (a one-plant-per-page herbal)
  
• In a similar position (annotating the plant illustration)
  
• From the same time-frame (XV Century)
  

I believe this particular piece of evidence adds immensely to the relevance of this detail. The parallel with the Vicenza ms was also published by Alain Touwaide in his 2015 paper "L'Erbario Voynich".


Moreover, the Vicenza ms contains other annotations that can be compared with the VMS: for instance 'g' for 'grün' inside green-painted leaves (see Rene's post I linked above).

I think this parallels have several possible implication:

• at least some members of the team that created the VMS spoke German;
  
• they were aware of this style of colour annotations;
  

• they were probably familiar with the "alchemical" one-plant-per-page layout.
  

But of course this evidence does not rule out the possibility that the underlying language of the main text is Turkic (though it certainly does nothing to support the idea).

Hi,

The last letter of the words you compare is different. Also, there are 3 letters in one and the other is 4. They seem to be similar at first glance, these are different words. The word written on the plant stalk on the VMS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. page consists of 4 letters. The three letters at the end are read as "-ORI". If we read the first letter in different words in a sentence, we can add it to transcription. This letter appears in very few pages in VMS. The letter resembles the ER tamga sign. Fakar is probably one of the derivative voices that have a vowel next to the 'B' sound. So there should be a syllable sign. It could possibly sound 'BA' or 'BI'. So this word probably can be read as BAORI or BIORI.

If we find many other words and sentences with the same letter, I can make a clearer conclusion. Just after that I can add this letter to our alphabet transcription too.

The '-I' sound at the end of the word is the word suffix.

“-I” / “-U” is an object specifier suffix. The object specifier is a form of suffix which is governed by the vowel harmony rules: “-I, -İ, -U, -Ü” are used with root nouns which end in a consonant, or used with extended (already suffixed) nouns which end with a consonant. (Direct Object Pointer suffixes “-I, -İ, -U, -Ü”)

This word now lives in some Turkish language dialects as the barı (bar-ı). In plant science, there is a value of 'giving a bar' (bar vermek), which is mostly used in the sense of giving fruit, fruit, and growing a new branch from the plant. It is quite possible that this word was used to mean 'sapling' in the Azerbaijani Turkish language sub-dialects. In other words, the word the author probably wrote in the form of BAORI or BIORI is the word BARI and means "the sapling". (I also think that the word 'sapling' in English is a loan derivative of the word SAP from the Pre-Turkish language/)

[See SAP (Güncel Türkçe Sözlük, sap anlamı: 1. Bitkinin dal, yaprak, çiçek vb. bölümlerini taşıyan, ağaçlarda odunlaşarak gövde durumunu alan bölüm. 2. Çiçek veya meyveyi dala bağlayan ince bölüm, sak > 1. The part of the plant that carries the branches, leaves, flowers, etc., which gets the body status by wooding in the trees. 2. The thin part that binds the flower or fruit to the branch, sak>) SAP > <https://sozce.com/nedir/271881-sap>]

[BAR: <https://www.azleks.az/online-dictionary/bar>]
[BARLI: <https://www.azleks.az/online-dictionary/barl%C4%B1>]

On the f-4r page in VMS, the first word of the eighth line is written as ÇNOR.
If the author wrote this word today, he would use one of the words ÇA+NOR, ÇA+NAR, ÇAA+NAR, ÇAĞA+NAR, ÇAA+NOR in different dialects. These words are not written as compound words today. This was written as a compound word in VMS.

Ç+ NOR / Ça + Nar / Çaa + NAR / Çağa + NAR

NAR (POMEGRANATE)

The words ÇA / ÇAA / ÇAĞA means 'baby' and 'child'. So it says 'baby pomegranate' here.

The word is used in 'NAR' phonetic format in Anatolian dialects. Today, in some Önbek-Turkish dialects, the same word is voiced as NOR.

[See: ça anlamı > Bebek, çocuk (baby, child) <https://sozce.com/nedir/67379-ca>]
&
[See: çaa anlamı > Bebek Çocuk (baby, child)<https://sozce.com/nedir/67381-caa>]
&
[See: Çağa anlamı > Bebek Çocuk (baby, child) <https://sozce.com/nedir/67615-caga>]
[NAR (pomegranate) <https://sozce.com/nedir/234491-nar>]

Thanks,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta

Pardon the introduction of a hair-brained hypothesis, but much of the interpretation for certain VMs illustrations has tended to be historically European; such things as the Oresme cosmos, the use of heraldry and the Genoese popes, Melusine, the Golden Fleece. This aligns to a time and place approximated to the Duchy of  Burgundy after circa 1430. 

Burgundy, at the beginning of this florescence would have been a polyglot of French, German, Portuguese, Dutch, English and Italian. Any linguistic choice is possible.

Burgundy had enough 'Islamic contact' in the Christian defeat at Nicopolis in 1396. Later, the Burgundian ambassador to Russia used the trade route south to the Black Sea and returned via the Mediterranean. Burgundy had naval forces in the Black Sea in the 1440s. The Genoese preceded them about a century prior. The counts of Flanders ruled the Latin kingdom of Byzantium. Flanders later became an early and essential part of Valois Burgundy. The VMs cosmos reveals an eastern influence, if the outer circle and the eight curved spokes can be attributed to the influence of Shirakatsi.

So, perhaps Voynichese is Turkish. And not necessarily good Turkish, as spoken by a native speaker, but Turkish as composed by a Burgundian. Just think of all the possible problems there. Good grief! But it is a possibility.

All of the 'yes, it is' - 'no, it isn't' discussion is going nowhere. There needs to be a convincing demonstration from the beginning that can be presented to those who maintain the contradictory opinion. And as a subject of the demonstration, I suggest the outer band of text from VMs White Aries, because it is marked and because it has internal structure.

(01-08-2020, 05:53 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I suggest the outer band of text from VMs White Aries

Better to offer the text of free choice, because I don't believe that the Turkish translation is sufficiently advanced, as indeed are several others, mine included.
Good luck for the exam! 

IMO, there are two essential parts to the investigative process. There is the method of investigation and there is the item that is under investigation. While the item in this case is the VMs writing, how is that selected? Is it a particular page, a set of statistics or whatever? The investigator already has the choice of methodology. Should the investigator also choose the text to be examined? That is how it always happens, and it seems that failed interpretations are what always result.

Why not use the contents of the manuscript to look for guidance contained in the VMs? White Aries holds a historical representation that acts like a text delivery system that puts a primary emphasis of the outer text band of f71r. It may not function in complete isolation, but you've got to go with what you've got.

Furthermore. the particular text segment by its specific nature may affect the nature of the investigative method to be used - potentially eliminating some choices and perhaps suggesting others. A good deal of sophisticated manipulation has been used to adapt certain historical details of armorial and ecclesiastical heraldry so they will function in an activated capacity. Unfortunately, the modern gap in the necessary familiarity with that relevant, traditional knowledge means that the intended visual guides generally do not register.

Starting with a line of text, and opening the choice of methodology to discussion offers a way for a solution to be developed from the bottom up, rather than being imposed from the top down. In such a situation, the choice of text may be critical. If much of the total text is filler, the analysis of filler will be futile. Having the manuscript put forth a specific text segment would be critical, if no useful determination can be made based of the nature of the text on its own.

(01-08-2020, 05:53 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Pardon the introduction of a hair-brained hypothesis, but much of the interpretation for certain VMs illustrations has tended to be historically European; such things as the Oresme cosmos, the use of heraldry and the Genoese popes, Melusine, the Golden Fleece. This aligns to a time and place approximated to the Duchy of  Burgundy after circa 1430. 

Burgundy, at the beginning of this florescence would have been a polyglot of French, German, Portuguese, Dutch, English and Italian. Any linguistic choice is possible.

Burgundy had enough 'Islamic contact' in the Christian defeat at Nicopolis in 1396. Later, the Burgundian ambassador to Russia used the trade route south to the Black Sea and returned via the Mediterranean. Burgundy had naval forces in the Black Sea in the 1440s. The Genoese preceded them about a century prior. The counts of Flanders ruled the Latin kingdom of Byzantium. Flanders later became an early and essential part of Valois Burgundy. The VMs cosmos reveals an eastern influence, if the outer circle and the eight curved spokes can be attributed to the influence of Shirakatsi.

So, perhaps Voynichese is Turkish. And not necessarily good Turkish, as spoken by a native speaker, but Turkish as composed by a Burgundian. Just think of all the possible problems there. Good grief! But it is a possibility.

All of the 'yes, it is' - 'no, it isn't' discussion is going nowhere. There needs to be a convincing demonstration from the beginning that can be presented to those who maintain the contradictory opinion. And as a subject of the demonstration, I suggest the outer band of text from VMs White Aries, because it is marked and because it has internal structure.

Hi,

Since my English is broken, I don't know the meaning of "hair-brained hypothesis" but I can guess that.

Politely, I would like to admit that you probably do not understand what I wrote, probably because my English is not good.

I have already explained that the author of VMS is a traveler in Europe. Therefore, it is quite normal that she/he drew what she/he saw. Did you understand this detail? Maybe it was inspired by a drawing she/he saw in Europe. Or it may be those who made the drawings you mentioned in Europe inspired by the author of the VMS. This issue can be discussed. However, there is no meaning for having this kind of discussion, because this issue is not connected with the language of the VMS.

The author wrote the word 'The Fortieth-Universe "(40.+OLAM / 40cc+OLAM / 40cc+alem) in Turkish on the VMS f-68v page (near 'the galaxy 'like drawing). According to the alphabet transcription, the word is also written as 'DOGOLAM'. It is a compound word and its root is the word DOG-. Today, this word is written as 'DOĞ'. You can see this word in the dictionaries with the '-mak' suffix only. 

[You can see the meanings of the word DOĞ / Doğmak in Turkish and English here: <https://sozce.com/nedir/97674-dogmak>]

[The suffixes “-mek/-mak”: these are suffixes of Turkish infinitive. They turn the root word into a verb as well as also a concrete noun. (Clauson, Guise)]

The word OLAM means 'all that has happened', 'all created/existed/ happen things' and 'galaxy'. The root of the word is 'OL-'. You can see this word in the dictionaries with the '-mak' suffix only such as 'olmak'.  [<https://sozce.com/nedir/241157-olmak>] In today's Turkish, this word is written as 'alem' and ' âlem'. It is known that in different dialects of Turkish (Uzbek and Azeri Turkish languages, 'A' sound is frequently replaced by 'O' sound. Some linguists think the origin of this word may be in Arabic, but this is probably not true. [<https://www.nisanyansozluk.com/?k=+%C3%A2lem>] 

(The word 40ccOLAM / 40ccALEM is located in the circular text on the outermost ring of the galaxy-like circle at 11 o'clock. You can see more information on this page: <http://www.turkicresearch.com/CodedWords>) 

I also found and review the "Oresme-cosmos" image on Google. There are parts that are similar to those drawn in this VMS. But there are parts that are not similar. So there is no complete overlap between this two images. (These are not exactly the same but partly similar.)

Thank you for the historical information you noted.

We do not know whether the author is Burgundian, German, Turkish, English, Genoese or Italian or Chinese. Because the VMS manuscript does not contain information about the nationality of the author. At least we did not find such information in the chapters we read. We don't know the author's name either. We also don't know if the author is a woman or a man. I personally guess that the authors may be two married couples, but this is only a guess. We don't have any claim that the author is Turkish anyway. The important thing here is that she/he/they wrote this manuscript in Turkish. The subject we are interested in is a language of the VMS, but the nationality of the author is not in our field of interest. Of course, if the writer is not Turkish, she/he/they may have a unique dialect or pronouncing words.

I think the author of VMS did not look at any galaxy with an advanced telescope, of course. However, she/he have been observed that by a circular air movement such as tornado, hurricane on the sky, or may be any circular structure found in some small plant parts, and she/he was thought may be that the whole galaxy might be in the same structure. But we know from the readings that the VMS writer uses lenses (like a magnifying glas structures). I think the author may have been written VMS under a magnifying glass. 

Because of the readings, we know that the VMS author is looking at the sky with a lens device. But this should probably be a primitive device. So we have no claim that she/he had observed the galaxies with this. 

Thanks for the information you share.

Best regards,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta

(01-08-2020, 10:08 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="-JKP-" pid='39235' dateline='1596249462']
This is germanic:





"rot" is also German for red (it occurs twice, once from left to right and once from top to bottom), and the "g" on f1v is probably green, and the "por" (Viola plant) is probably purple/violet.

. 

The latter one was posted by MarcoP on the annotations thread.

Since "rot" is posted in two places, in two directions, and one is painted brick red, it can probably be interpreted as "red".

Hi,

Sorry to say that, but the explanation you make right now is purely coincidental or a kind of anagram. 
I must say that these texts have nothing in German. Similar readings have been made for the last 100 years. If you prepare the alphabet transcription variants, you can find from 1 to 30 similarities in any language in the world. Anyway, one of the reasons for the VMS not being unlocked is that this kind of false inference is considered real. 

However, as I said before, we have not yet studied the last page of writing in detail. But in this section, the alphabet signs have partially changed. The writing is as if it had come from another hand. I think it is not possible to claim with based on a few analogy words. But, If you had read a sentence with some compound words, it might mean something.

Moreover, I think that many words in Proto-German language connected with Pre-Turkish languages and I am not the only one who thinks like that.

In addition, in VMS, some additions were made on many pages with a dark ink. Voynich probably did this himself. Just like on the first page. Here he used the dark ink over some original old-ink mostly. Probably, he was think that new ink looks not cover and it was looking new, than he think that the fake additions in most page can be work such as a kind of camouflage for his fake additions, because of the new (dark) ink was not match with that original color. So this probability is quite high.

I think that Voynich himself added some words throughout the VMS. For example, adding words such as like the words between the feet of goat figures. It doesn't matter what language they are in VMS with short text or some words. The important part is the language of the main large texts seen on every page throughout the manuscript. Which main part is in old Turkish.

It is known that many ancient manuscripts are written in mixed language. However, they usually have a main language, as well as words and some sentences in different languages. Writing on the basis of a few words cannot be indicate about VMS's main language such as German or any other language.

Thanks,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta

[Sorry for my mistake in this comment. I wrote that
"The writing is as if it had come from another hand." but I wanted to write; "The writing seems to have come from another hand."
Thanks,
Ahmet Ardıç]

(02-08-2020, 11:40 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

..
I think that Voynich himself added some words throughout the VMS. For example, adding words such as like the words between the feet of goat figures. It doesn't matter what language they are in VMS with short text or some words. The important part is the language of the main large texts seen on every page throughout the manuscript. Which main part is in old Turkish.

...

No, Voynich didn't add the month labels. They are in 15th-century script with 15th-century abbreviation conventions, and the spelling is from a specific region that Voynich probably didn't know about. I have palaeographic samples that can localize and provide a significant amount of confirmation for the regional and temporal origin of the month labels. I spent many years looking into this.

I don't think they were part of the original writing, I think they were added later, but they were not added in the 20th century. No one wrote like this after the 16th century.

Quote:Sorry to say that, but the explanation you make right now is purely coincidental or a kind of anagram. 

I must say that these texts have nothing in German. Similar readings have been made for the last 100 years. If you prepare the alphabet transcription variants, you can find from 1 to 30 similarities in any language in the world. Anyway, one of the reasons for the VMS not being unlocked is that this kind of false inference is considered real. 

Have you looked at all the annotations? There are many of them. There is "g" on a green leaf, "rot" on a reddish root, "por" on a violet/blue flower. They all make sense in western languages. There is no need to anagram them and you cannot anagram a one-letter annotation.

They are in plaintext using the Latin alphabet. They do not match color annotations in Turkish. They do not match color annotations in Arabic. They do not match color annotations in African languages. They do match color annotations in western languages.

The color annotations are not necessarily in the same language as the VMS main text, but you cannot deny that they are western in both slphabet and content.