The Voynich Ninja

(04-09-2022, 04:21 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....Turkish words can be read in every line of 240 pages, but the "unreadable" words make it difficult to read & interpret that sentences as a whole in a short time.

The possible presence of Turkish words does not exclude the possibility of another language in the same paragraph.

(04-09-2022, 11:05 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(04-09-2022, 04:21 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....Turkish words can be read in every line of 240 pages, but the "unreadable" words make it difficult to read & interpret that sentences as a whole in a short time.

The possible presence of Turkish words does not exclude the possibility of another language in the same paragraph.

Hi Ruby, 

Thank you for the comment. 

It is more likely that there are two different dialects than the content of this book, or that the author deliberately mixed different dialects. It may also be a mistake that some researchers claim that there are two languages in the book based on the statistical structure of the words. However, just because of the content is in Turkish, it is quite possible to assert these misleading results. Because Turkish words have word-suffixes. These suffixes can refer to the first, second and third persons, as well as contain information such as past, future, present tense etc. Therefore, when the subject person and tense described in some pages change, the phonetic value structure at the end of the word also changes sharply. Therefore, it is thought that "there is a different language in the content", but there is no different language.


On the other hand, there is a possibility that words from different languages were used in the sentence structure of the Turkish language by quoting them. The Turkish language, like other languages, borrowed many words from neighboring languages. These are completely normal. The main reason why researchers are wrong here is that they analyze VM-texts with the logic of examining the texts of Indo-European languages.

If the VM-word-structure will analyzed statistically and photographically, it is seen that they are the closest to the modern Turkish language and dialects. We have talked about all of them in these pages here in this voynich ninja page and I have also presented examples. First of all, those who want to advance with statistical and mathematical methods can see the situation more clearly if they proceed based on our ATA alphabet transcription. Because the content is in Turkish. Intelligent people who understand linguistics and know mathematics are the first to understand this fact, and this process has already begun and is progressing. In the near future, many linguists will begin to realize this fact. There is no doubt about it.

As a second-hand booksellers, Voynich was one of the leaders of a network that smuggled many manuscripts and rare books from Ottoman lands to the West during the last period of the Ottoman empire. His theft works resulted in the burning of many libraries in the Ottoman Empire. He probably smuggled over a million manuscripts and rare books to Europe and America. In doing so, they burned at least the same number of rare books and historical manuscripts, along with library buildings, (possibly min. twice as much as they could steal). Later, he also took some of the partially burned books/artifacts himself and smuggled them to Europe too. You can also see that during his lifetime he placed advertisements in many newspapers that he was selling partially burned manuscripts and rare books. Because of this impostor, there was an explosion in the number of oriental manuscripts (in terms of quantity) in Europe and America, coinciding with the same periods (the years he was in this "business"). 

Today, including the VM-manuscript, the reason why many manuscripts in Europe and America have missing pages & partially cut parts and pages is that these pages were torn or cut due to the presence of Ottoman library seals. They produced so-called European tales of ownership for the works, showing some of them as donations from certain people (sometimes as like from well-known rich people). Thus, institutions such as museums and universities, which acquired them, would not be under suspicion in the future, and "history" would be produced about the owners of an artificial past for each of their works in order to erase the dirty parts of their history. 

The dates of his "book seling works" in time and the dates of the building fires, which had a library in the Ottoman Empire, are very close to each other. We also studied fire cases within the same time range before and after that, being throughout his years of business. We examined this in the form of thirty-year periods and a total of 90 years of fire records. When Voynich's years of trading are compared with the periods before and after him, it is seen that the number of fires increased exponentially during his dirty work. We say that the so-called "well known history of the Voynich manuscript & his book business" written to this day, is utter garbage.

We have included many documents and information that we think prove these things in our book. The tales that you & others repeat to each other like as "this book was in the hands of ... such a king etc in the past is just one of the artificial history-making events that made up in Europe. However, produced artificial history through "European" academies are not new issue. 

So, try to look other side if you can. And, there are no different languages in the content. The content is old Turkish, but we often chose to call it TURKIC because we could not distinguish its dialect yet. But this is a temporary situation. 240 pages of the work will also be read, but this process will progressing very slowly.

Sorry for my broken English.

Thanks 

(05-09-2022, 12:17 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The main reason why researchers are wrong here is that they analyze VM-texts with the logic of examining the texts of Indo-European languages.

Not only Indo-European languages were tested to read the manuscript, but also Arabic, Hebrew, Nahuatl as well as Manchu.

(05-09-2022, 05:37 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(05-09-2022, 12:17 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The main reason why researchers are wrong here is that they analyze VM-texts with the logic of examining the texts of Indo-European languages.

[Not only Indo-European languages were tested to read the manuscript, but also Arabic, Hebrew, Nahuatl as well as Manchu.]

Yep. You're right.
I think, this issue should show the skeptics the area they need to look. 
No one saw and checked the Turkish language as a candidate before us, (which  language live together with European languages in the same geography or as a neighbor). 
So, we checked this area and found the facts.
Thanks,

The ATA is based on modern turkish script, all the samples that you show use the modern turkish script. 
Where is the old turkish script? Do you have samples of old turkish script of the VM times for every word you have found? Do you have tables to compare the 3 ones?: the VM script, the modern script and the old script. 
As the word spelling and writting change over time, how matches the modern turkish script with the old one? How the modern trasliteration of the VM matches with old turkish if both are different systems of writting? 
Where the minds of the VM creators thinking on a spelling-latin-like tranliteration? Does it have any sense? Even if it has a sense how an ATA based in modern turkish script can reproduce the witting/spelling of the VM?

What I write below is not largely about the VM, but is partially related. Those who do not want to read a long article in broken English, please do not read it.

The strange thing is, we can see the same photographic pattern when we look at the word structure of almost all of the old-texts/inscriptions that which have not been read before. (I've been working on some of these for years.) 

Writing signs, which Western linguistics call "Runic" typefaces, evolved from tamga signs older than ten thousand years. 

The alphabets, which are defined as the Cyrillic alphabet and the Latin alphabet today, evolved from the derivatives of various Runic signs. 

Their sound values have changed their phonetic value in certain geographies over time. But even if a tamga (tanım-ımga/imge) sign is more than 10 or 12 thousand years old, their meanings and sound values are still alive in our culture and language. In my book, I explain what I wrote here in a historical and logical order and with pointing some evidence.


The Turkish language and the ancient Turkic language remained a field that European linguists and historians almost and mostly did not know well in details and found it difficult for them to learn. 

For this reason, Europeans do not even know that the real origin of many of their words is Turkish, although they have lived close to the Turkish language throughout history and borrowed many words from it. 

Many Indo-European words, whose origin is called PIE, have equivalents in the Turkish language that provide close phonetic value and semantic overlap. Moreover, we can show that these words are used in old texts in Turkish. 

The science called "etymology" studies the history of words. 

While doing this, there must be some scientific criteria and these criteria should not be stretched by political or emotional choices. So it shouldn't matter which language you study the history of the word. The established criteria should be used in the same way when researching the history of words in all languages. 

The most important of these criteria is to refer to the oldest written source, which is close to the phonetic value and meaning of a word. 

Although European linguists have the oldest written form of Turkish language, they miss this fact and show many words as PIE origin. In fact, there is no proof that there is even a root language called PIE. This concept is a completely fictitious production. 

A society that does not know how to count may have learned numeral pronouns from a neighboring society. 

Thus, they may have borrowed the number pronouns from the neighboring language. 

If you say that languages with similarity in number pronouns come from the same common root, this would be an absurd inference. 

For example, Persian is an "Indo-European" language. The number that the Persians say in the form of "YEK" is the number 1. We call the same numeral noun as BİR in the modern Anatolian Turkish language. Do not be surprised if you see this word as VAR > BAR etc. in different Turkic dialects. But this number name also has a synonym as TEK in Turkish.


This is the word "ONE (1)" in Turkish as TEK, and that meanin is both "singular" and "1" . 

As you can see, the first number of "Persian language of YEK" (آ /  یکی) and the Turkish word "TEK" overlap both phonetically and in meaning. We can establish similar examples between the number pronouns in English and the number pronouns in Turkish too. Etc. ...

For example, VAR (BAR/BİR) > ONE sound conversion should probably have passed from one of the Tatar-Turkish dialects to English as ONE. (VAR > ONE) are words that are close in sound value and overlap in meaning. 

The word THREE (3) in English is the sound form of the word DİRİ/TİRİ in old Turkish. This word can be use as the name of the third finger in our hand in Turkish and one of its many meanings in Turkish was (UZUN/DİRİ/İRİ) "longer than the others (it was said for the longer finger)".

The number 2, TWO, means "adjacent finger of to the first finger". It is named as like "the finger which attached to the first finger" in Turkish. The root word is -TU in Turkish and this word is the root word of the verb to hold/attached on in Turkish (TUT-mak). The word, which is a synonym for this, lived in Turkish, but this word did not live long as noun in time. It still lives in our language in action form es a verb only. (TU-TUN-MAK / TUT-MAK).

However, your so-called "linguists", (who introduced the concept of Indo European linguistic root about 300 years ago) said that "if there is an overlap between the number pronouns of the two languages, they must be from a common root." It is also said that the overlap in the names of the parts/organs in body, this indicates the unity of origin of those languages. However, this is also nonsense.

Because, a group of people just learning to speak may have borrowed these words from the neighboring group and are not privileged at this point from other words including numbers.

In addition, there are examples that are similar between Turkish organ names and "organ names called from the PIE language".

I do not want to write a longer article with my broken English by prolonging the examples here. Because my articles provide more than thousand examples. There may be those who think that these have nothing to do with the Voynich book. But if you don't know the origin of your language and are forced to read your 1000-year-old texts, you can take unrealistic paths in the name of science and get lost there. I don't just show read keys for VM texts with our work, and I will start to shake a whole pile of crap to spill out for PIE linguistics with using linguistic methods.

I don't expect to be understood right away. A step-by-step understanding will suffice. First of all, everyone will understand that the VM texts have Turkish content. Then, after reading my articles about other thinks in the area, over time some linguists (who are sober-minded) will begin to perceive what I have said.

Western linguistics has built many imaginary names and towers. Accepting that is same as saying million of articles written in the past by referring PIE roots are garbage. That's when the real Etymology studies will begin, everyone will see and understand this all (in the future). So, This part is not about VM.  

I will go step by step

without haste

the smartest linguists will understand first

then after may be many others but not all



Finally, I would like to quote an old and concise saying that I shared on my own page. This phrase was said by the famous thinker Rumi.



(But please don't be offended. So when Mevlana said this, me and all others living now weren't in this world yet. So, he couldn't have told all of us. So, I think I don't need to apologize because this quote is not about you or me or another people here. It's about science and people in general.)



'You can beat forty scholars with one fact, but you can't beat one idiot with forty facts.' 

... Mevlana Celaleddin-i Rumi (1207 - 1273)...



I say these succinct words to many academics before I tell them about the subject. The only effect of this actually is that it makes them listen to me more carefully. I also help them understand how wrong it is to throw the results of a family project away without reading it.


Thus, they understand that it is wrong to underestimate those who do not have an academic linguistics degree and give family project, and they perceive that they should not throw away the articles we sent them 5 years ago before they have read them.

(06-09-2022, 01:26 PM)Juan_Sali Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The ATA is based on modern turkish script, all the samples that you show use the modern turkish script. 
Where is the old turkish script? Do you have samples of old turkish script of the VM times for every word you have found? Do you have tables to compare the 3 ones?: the VM script, the modern script and the old script. 
As the word spelling and writting change over time, how matches the modern turkish script with the old one? How the modern trasliteration of the VM matches with old turkish if both are different systems of writting? 
Where the minds of the VM creators thinking on a spelling-latin-like tranliteration? Does it have any sense? Even if it has a sense how an ATA based in modern turkish script can reproduce the witting/spelling of the VM?

Regardless of the alphabet, the main issue that needs to be emphasized here is the phonetic values of the words and whether they form a semantic integrity when they come together. The rest are details. Moreover, you are confused and here I have answered all of these questions for others before. If you go back to the beginning and read it again, you will understand better.

Thanks

(06-09-2022, 12:38 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No one saw the Turkish language as a candidate before us

Doubtful. Quite a few people on this forum have seen Turkish as a candidate language for many years, as this thread itself shows, as well as that earlier Turkish theory thread I linked to in one of my previous replies.

(06-09-2022, 01:26 PM)Juan_Sali Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The ATA is based on modern turkish script, all the samples that you show use the modern turkish script. 
Where is the old turkish script? Do you have samples of old turkish script of the VM times for every word you have found? Do you have tables to compare the 3 ones?: the VM script, the modern script and the old script. 
As the word spelling and writting change over time, how matches the modern turkish script with the old one? How the modern trasliteration of the VM matches with old turkish if both are different systems of writting? 
Where the minds of the VM creators thinking on a spelling-latin-like tranliteration? Does it have any sense? Even if it has a sense how an ATA based in modern turkish script can reproduce the witting/spelling of the VM?

Dear Juan_Sali,


By that, do you mean that the Ottomans used the Arabic alphabet and we switched to using the Latin alphabet in Atatürk's time? So are you saying that "you Turks only used the Arabic alphabet before and during the period when VM was written?"

If this is the question, I have shown by presenting many evidence in my previous comments that these are unscientific generalizations in that way and the evidence we wrote by pointing that there were people who wrote Turkish by using the Latin alphabet before and during the Ottoman period.

You can see it in previous comments.

In this case, I wonder why you keep asking the same questions without reading and trying to understand what we are saying. 

If this is not was your question and if I do not understand the question correctly, please ask again with using a clear example of the problem. 
But if possible, please don't ask again about the details we've already answered. We compose an article from our personal ideas that are not based on evidence. Whatever we say, we show the evidence. To understand this, you must first look at what we say and what evidence we show. Otherwise, we will be wasting our time around the same questions.

Where is the old turkish script you call? 
This has been answered before. There are many Turkish inscriptions and manuscripts written in both the Latin alphabet and the Runic alphabet. Some of them are also older than the VM. For example, the Codex Cumanicus manuscript. This manuscript was written in the Kipchak Cuman dialect of the Turkish language. So, they are not using only Arabic one is not it?

In addition to that, It is also known that there were creeds (which calling as "itikatnameler" in Turkish) written in the Latin alphabet during the Fatif Sultan Mehmet time. In other words, you are making unrealistic evaluations in your mind by generalizing unscientific false teachings. Please see all that documents and evidence, then think again.

To answer your other question;
Modern Turkish and Old Turkish overlap to a certain extent. There is nothing surprising in this. The roots of Turkish words are usually monosyllabic and sometimes monophonic. It is not possible for them to change in much area in phonetically. In the so-called "Indo-European" languages, words are quoted and used in their entirety. Phonetic shifts are more numerous and versatile when words extend as syllables.

I never understood your this question too: "How the modern trasliteration of the VM matches with old turkish if both are different systems of writting?" Who told you that both are separate writing systems? 
We didn't say anything like that. Both are the same language, but one is 600 years old and in an as yet undetermined dialect. This dialect issue will be resolved in time, but both are the same language. Old Turkish and New Turkish.

Your question; --"Where the minds of the VM creators thinking on a spelling-latin-like tranliteration? Does it have any sense?" 
I did not understand your that questions either.
More precisely, it seemed like a baseless question to me and maybe I didn't understand it because my English is bad. 
The Latin alphabet, the Runic alphabet, the Hebrew alphabet and the Greek alphabet, and the Cyrillic alphabet and the Arabic alphabet were all used to write Turkish throughout history. See here the author probably created this alphabet herself. It was mostly based on the Latin alphabet when creating it and added some Runic alphabet signs to it. Do you want to ask, how did the author do this? There is nothing to be surprised about. Turkish works written in the Latin alphabet from the fourteenth century already exist. Also, if the author himself/herself developed this VM alphabet, are you examining how it was developed with this question?

If it is, we go back to the past with the first time machine and ask this question to the author. "An Indo European" can be develop an alphabet themself, but how could you develop an alphabet yourself as a Turkish language writer as like an idiot?" shall we ask this to the author?

Your question; --"Even if it has a sense how an ATA based in modern turkish script can reproduce the witting/spelling of the VM?" 
Sorry but, your this question is also pretty meaningless. People can write texts in any language they want, even by creating a new alphabet after 5 minutes now. 

I'm not writing to break your heart. So don't take my answers personally. Answering the same questions over and over with the same evidence is tiring and frustrating for me. I hope you will receive it with understanding. Because the problem is not that you have asked them, but that you have asked them again after being asked and answered several times and maybe I am not understanding your questions correctly too. I do not know. But my answers are not about you. The content of the questions is not answered to personal but about the content.

Thanks

(06-09-2022, 06:48 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(06-09-2022, 12:38 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No one saw the Turkish language as a candidate before us

Doubtful. Quite a few people on this forum have seen Turkish as a candidate language for many years, as this thread itself shows, as well as that earlier Turkish theory thread I linked to in one of my previous replies.

Dear Tavie,

Considering Turkish as a candidate is another matter, but has anyone checked for VM-texts, doubting whether Turkish can be a candidate academically in terms of Turkish language, especially by including the lexical structure of the Turkish language in statistical ... etc analysis?


If even a single person has done this, then I am making the wrong conclusion for sure.

In one of the Prof. Stephan Box most recent articles (as a scientist who does valuable work), he was described that name of some Turkish dialects (as if they were separate languages) and pointing Turkish in general as an areas that can be look in the future. Because it can be said that all other areas have already been looked at. Unfortunately and sadly, he was not live long enough to look into this area. Therefore, ours is the only study that has examined Turkish as a candidate for VM in detail.

So, When I said "No one saw the Turkish language as a candidate before us", I wrote it in the sense of pointing out the possibility of Turkish and deepening the research in this direction after comparing it with the VM-texts and working on etc. In this case, I would like to correct my explanatory question and make it more understandable. Here, I was talking about going into detail in terms of Turkish as a candidate.

Thanks