The Voynich Ninja

Dear researchers,

Please, as much as possible, let's try to review the simple basic data before attempting complex calculations.

> How many different sounds can there be in human spoken/written language?

> How many different sounds are there in European languages?

> How many different sounds are there in Hebrew and Arabic?

> How many sound signs were there in all these languages (including capital letter images) in the scripts and alphabets they used throughout history?

> How many sound marks are there in VM texts?

If your puzzle base frame plate has 50 or 60 special places, can you fit 350 or 360 pieces in there?

I think a researcher should not attempt to transcription the alphabet for VM content without even approximately answering these questions because it is not possible to get results by proceeding with irrational approaches.

From the Syllable Character List, 39 symbols have been selected by myself here in this comment. Although about 89 symbols are shown in this (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) list, only 39 different types of symbols have been selected from this list because some of them are included in other tables.

The same situation applies to the tables below. In some tables, symbols that appear similar to each other (which I consider different) may be considered the same by others. For this reason, the number of writing symbols selected in these tables may be more than the numbers noted in the same table.

Across approximately 240 pages of the VM work, primarily Latin alphabet letters/symbols as well as Turkic-Runic alphabet letters, a few Greek-like alphabet symbols, some Turkic tamga symbols, and numerical symbols up to 9 are blended to create syllable characters, thereby forming the VM writing alphabet.

In addition to the VM alphabet, there exists a second alphabet and language within the content, but I have not yet deciphered it. The number of words written with this secondary mentioned alphabet is so few that their total would only amount to the length of a single sentence within the 240-page manuscript. For this reason, I can state that I do not find this second language and alphabet worth examining at this stage. However, I have included some words written in this alphabet in the tables below. Because these are also available in the VM content.

In the tables below, the numbers of different writing symbols found in the VM have been noted.

The basic letter signs in VM is > 24 pieces
See: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

Syllable 39 characters in our list can be seen here in this link.
(There are a total of 89 signs in the list at the following address " You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. " 39 of them were selected in number because they are not included in other tables.)
Additionally, I only add 8 of the 16 tamga signs to the calculation below (to the total number of sound signs) because some of these are already shown in other tables.

The total number of different signs in the Tables below = 90 + 71 + 38 + 25 + 60 = 284 different writing signs. When we add 24 basic fonts and 39 of the syllabic characters listed on our page to this figure, there are a total of 284 + 24 + 39 = 347 fonts in the VM content, which are different from each other. When you add 8 of the tamgas signs to the number, this total number becomes 355.

Although I chose this "355 different VM fonts" figure by quickly looking at approximately all 240 pages, assuming there are approximately 5 scripts/letters that I may have missed from being in this entire book, there are about 360 different scripts/letters within the VM.

Of course, a few calculation errors, which may include those arising from excessive ink leakage from the pen, natural distortions in the author's manuscript over time, changes in the writing styles of more than one author/writer, and/or situations where I mistakenly interpreted two similar appearances of the same sign as different letters, may have been effective in this count while I was calculating the numbers.

If I still assume that these calculation errors are 20 scripts/letters in total, then it can be said that the VM content was created with approximately ( 360 - 20 = ) 340 different letter/sound signs.

{Of course, if another researcher could help me count exactly by listing (to find some errors or 20 or more than the 20 errors of similarly different-looking letters and writing signs / if there are any mistakes), It will be at least have a chance to check this my count.}


PLEASE SEE THE TABLES:

[attachment=8846]
[attachment=8848]
[attachment=8849]
[attachment=8850]
[attachment=8851]
[attachment=8852]
[attachment=8854]
+ "Syllabic Combine Characters Transcriptions" here > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


A long time ago, by counting the marks on a certain number of first pages in the VM content, I thought there were about 170 fonts in the content, based on a probability calculation in a ratio/proportion way. And I wrote about this in various places. This idea gave me the first clue that there might be syllable-sound images in the VM content when I first started researching VM texts.

Later, when I repeated this calculation with the same method, I assumed that the number I was looking for was over 180 units. But for a while, I looked at all the pages in the content again and brought together the signs I saw differently in the images I created in tables.

Today, as a result, we can say that there are approximately 340 letter/sound signs in total in the VM content (or maybe max. 360).

Although the number of human speech sounds differs for speakers of each language group, they are essentially a very limited number. In this regard, many languages have between 24 and 33 letters in their alphabet. This number may increase if syllable and word signs are involved.

In other words, while the basic phonetic alphabet signs corresponding to human speech sounds are very limited, the number of writing signs naturally increases when signs that can be called syllabic signs (all different types) are included. This is the case for all languages and cultures throughout history.

In this numerical case; Will reading VM articles using EVA variations or other similar sound-matching-transcription tables, engaging in scientific calculations, or writing articles with a statistical approach for VM, allow & help you to get accurate results?

When the puzzle you have is 350 pieces, even if you match 50 pieces correctly, it would not be possible to get accurate results from the measurements you make.

If such inscriptions or manuscripts are to be read, it is necessary to first check whether the written signs on hand are more than the known alphabets. No one has done this in the last 100 years, or if they did, they did not come to the right conclusion.

So, can you see why we can't talk about a table of 24 or 33 letters (or, can we say let's take capital letters into account and try to verify a 66-letter text-sign or alphabet image?)

Therefore, studies that did not take syllabic characters into account could not reach results, and so it was.

The articles written so far with the assumption that they are academic and scientific (even all the so-called academic level produced in universities with more than one participant) and the tables produced in the field of comparative linguistics for the phonetic structures created with the statistical approaches shown in them did not serve to make accurate measurements.

As a result, the ATA alphabet transcription is the most consistent alphabet transcription made throughout the history of VM studies in that it shows in which direction and how all the written signs are to be read and covers the whole. As can be seen, syllable signs are formed by combining the more familiar Latin letters. With our study, we have shown how to read syllable signs. Thus, we were able to reach correct conclusions by making correct inferences.

See the table "syllable signs are formed" here: [attachment=8853]

The best alphabet transcription is the one that allows us to read the largest number of words correctly.

(12-07-2024, 03:48 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The best alphabet transcription is the one that allows us to read the largest number of words correctly.

I'm starting to understand that when you talk about your ATA transcription, you mean just your alphabet, not transcription of the entire text of the manuscript?
Is that why you never give the number of occurrences of the words examined, because, quite simply, you don't know it?
And yet, if you have your alphabet, you can easily match it with a transcription /transliteration of your choice, to allow your readers to read the manuscript in Turkish.

(12-07-2024, 08:44 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(12-07-2024, 03:48 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The best alphabet transcription is the one that allows us to read the largest number of words correctly.

[I'm starting to understand that when you talk about your ATA transcription, you mean just your alphabet, not transcription of the entire text of the manuscript?
Is that why you never give the number of occurrences of the words examined, because, quite simply, you don't know it?
And yet, if you have your alphabet, you can easily match it with a transcription /transliteration of your choice, to allow your readers to read the manuscript in Turkish.]

Dear Novacna,

I don't understand exactly what you mean by your question. I don't understand what you mean by the term "your alphabet". In linguistics, an "alphabet transcription" refers to the process of representing the sounds or symbols of a writing system using the letters of another alphabet, typically the Latin alphabet. I wrote that VM text signs can be at least 340 and at most 360 and shared the images. There is no "my alphabet".

When I say ATA alphabet transcription here, I am talking about the table of sound value correspondences of VM script signs (representing the sounds or symbols of a writing system of VM to Latin letters) with Latin letters.

All syllable signs appearing in complex forms are read from the direction where the handwriting begins to the direction it ends. The letter signs, which appear intertwined with each other, are read from the outside to the inside. If one sign is above the other, they are also read from bottom to top. The writing direction throughout all pages is from left to right, and when these texts are read from left to right when a syllable character arrives, you will continue to the left to right by voicing it from outside to inside and from bottom to up. If you follow our previous reading examples carefully, you will already understand what I am talking about.

The most important detail here is to understand how to read compound characters (syllable signs). When this is understood, you will see that all these syllable signs are read as 24 simple sound images, a few tamga signs, and the sound values of the forms of the numbers (as shown in the ATA tables). There is no need to memorize the sound values of 340 different signs to read these texts. Because compound/syllabic characters have already been derived from a small number of signs, we have understood how this derivation is made. This being the case, you can write any word with simple signs or syllable signs. So much so that the author has already done this in the writing of certain words.

In other words, there are no capital letters here. The strange and long-looking signs are multi-syllabic signs and some of them are even just one complete word.

If what you want to say to me is something like "Now you have transcribed these signs, you should complete the readings quickly"; I have written before why texts cannot be read quickly. I also mentioned how the task of translating these texts into today's language could be accelerated. I won't repeat it here.

Old English and original Shakespeare texts were written with the 26 letters of the Latin alphabet, but the orthography and some characters (like thorn "þ" and eth "ð" in Old English) varied. Ordinary people can't read old original Shakespeare texts easily because the varying orthography and occasional use of unfamiliar characters like thorn "þ" and eth "ð" make it difficult to understand. In addition to the varying orthography and occasional use of unfamiliar characters like thorn "þ" and eth "ð" in Old English, other factors that make reading old Shakespeare texts difficult include archaic vocabulary, syntax differences, and the evolution of word meanings over time. These elements combine to create significant challenges for modern readers attempting to understand the original texts.

Even any linguist whose main subject is Old English cannot read Shakespeare's texts as if he were reading a newspaper, and cannot understand them immediately. Their translation was a process that took years, with long discussions over each sentence. Even today, some linguists continue to debate the meaning of some words used at that time.

So, if you can read an original Shakespeare text that is approximately 400 years old and written in 26 simple letters and understand it immediately, and if you can quickly translate these old texts into today's English (that is, at least if you have such an ability), I guess you can also understand what process and how long it takes to translate VM texts. You can try to empathize a little with how it can be read. Of course, it will take some time to translate the agglutinative language texts written with 340 to 360 script signs using abbreviations in a local dialect of Turkish 600 years ago into today's language.

But actually, you can speed up this whole process if you want. First of all, perhaps one in 10 thousand linguists working in the field of Turkology is aware of the existence of this VM manuscript. So they don't even know this manuscript exists yet.

Anyway, I don't want to waste time rewriting the troubles in this process. First of all, the following processes will not accelerate that much until the common misconception that VM content will be in one of the European languages is eliminated. We will continue to carry out translations in our spare time, through the efforts of me or three or four others. You can be sure that the content is mainly in Turkish and one day the entire book will be translated into today's. 

When you look at the quality and number of evidence we have presented carefully and scrutinizing the details, even if you do not know Turkish, if you have some logic and some mathematical probability awareness, you will understand that we have deciphered the language of VM texts. 

Or, without understanding this, you will continue to search IE languages in VM content for the next hundred years. I think some of you may want to leave the task of decoding VM texts in one of the European languages as a legacy to your grandchildren, considering that you may not live to live that long.

(13-07-2024, 06:39 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When I say ATA alphabet transcription here, I am talking about the table of sound value correspondences of VM script signs (representing the sounds or symbols of a writing system of VM to Latin letters) with Latin letters

Thank you, Ahmet, for your answer, finally it's starting to become clearer. 
When I talk about transcription, I mean transcribing the entire text.
Your table of phonetic values that you give to the glyphs of the VM is in image format, if I am not mistaken, can you do it in text format, and add, in parallel, another transcription of your choice?
This way readers could better understand your translation of f33v, for example.

P.S. Shakespeare has nothing to do with our misunderstanding.

(13-07-2024, 07:16 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote='Ahmet Ardıç' pid='60504' dateline='1720892365']
When I say ATA alphabet transcription here, I am talking about the table of sound value correspondences of VM script signs (representing the sounds or symbols of a writing system of VM to Latin letters) with Latin letters

[When I talk about transcription, I mean transcribing the entire text.
Your table of phonetic values that you give to the glyphs of the VM is in image format, if I am not mistaken, can you do it in text format, and add, in parallel, another transcription of your choice? This way readers could better understand your translation of f33v, for example.]



Dear Novacna,

We have already done exactly what you are talking about in our article on page 33v which is maned as "READING OF THE PAGE 33v OF VOYNICH MANUSCRIPT".

We have shown the alphabet transcription of an entire page in both its original form and today's form as text in the form of photographs and sentences.

If you remember, this article was presented at an international symposium and published in the symposium booklet. Moreover, the scientific committee of the symposium I mentioned consisted entirely of Turkologists and experts in the Old Turkish language. These experts are Turkish language professors at different universities around the world.

I now write my articles only in Turkish to send to academies, symposiums, and Türkologists. Anyone curious can translate and review it using their means. However, it is enough to look at the basic and concrete evidence already presented to understand that the VM content is Turkish. Turkish language experts in many time in different academies have already looked at the remaining details and saw that the content is in Turkish.

One of the Turkologist and Old Turkic languages experts who was the president of the symposium I mentioned, (Prof. Dr. A. B. Ercilasun) described our work for a newspaper in his article as "Ahmet Ardıç's declaration on the Turkish solution was among the important papers of the symposium".

Prof A. B. Ercilasun is one of the most well-known and knowledgeable linguists who trained many of the expert professors on Old Turkish in Turkey. He wrote the following about our work: "The Voyniç manuscript, dating back to the 15th century, has been considered one of the mysterious books of the world since 1912, and code breakers, as well as scientists, are trying to decipher the writing and language in the book. Ahmet Ardıç's declaration on the Turkish solution was among the important papers of the symposium."

Prof. Dr. A. B. Ercilasun wrote newspaper text here: >
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The article "READING OF THE PAGE 33v OF VOYNICH MANUSCRIPT" is also at this address: > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

In short, we have already done exactly what you are talking about in our article for the international symposium.

(13-07-2024, 09:00 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In short, we have already done exactly what you are talking about in our article for the international symposium.

Thank you for the link. However, I only asked for the summary of your 33v translation, not a 29-page article. 
I will try to do this using your article and the transcription found on the voynich.nu site:
<f33v.1,@P0> <%>tar,ar.daiin<->ydain.cthey.dols<->sheky.ar,aiin.{cs}

Iyararsağn usaın çiycü söpr çuclu orağn çn

Now all I have to do is find a good free Ottoman dictionary online, which one will you recommend?

[quote="Ruby Novacna" pid='60507' dateline='1720906698']
[quote='Ahmet Ardıç' pid='60506' dateline='1720900812']
[I only asked for the summary of your 33v translation, not a 29-page article. 
I will try to do this using your article and the transcription found on the voynich.nu site
Now all I have to do is find a good free Ottoman dictionary online, which one will you recommend?]


Dear Novacna,

You don't need a good Ottoman dictionary. Because there is no language called Ottoman. The language that people today (and even some linguists ignorantly) call Ottoman Turkish is a "language" that was common in the Palace and is a mixture of Old Turkish, Persian, and Arabic, and is widely used in public speaking. What you need are dictionaries that contain the vocabulary in Old Turkish and its dialects. However, a linguistic study/book in which you can find every word in a single dictionary does not seem possible for Turkish. Because it is practically never possible to find a key that can open all doors with a single dictionary without using many dictionaries. You can only do this for modern Turkish. It would be misleading for you to recommend just one online dictionary to you, but I will make some suggestions.

First of all, just trying to decipher the first line of page 33v and the relevant section (or any line or sentence) by reviewing our article would be a good start. At least it can help you understand the method and how we read an Old Turkish text. For this reason, I must say that I appreciate your effort. Also, thank you for taking such an initiative. If possible, I can say that you can make a more realistic review if you can proceed without deviating/relying on the previous knowledge you already have in your mind about VM while looking at our article (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

First of all, I must say that the entire 29-page article contains information that will enable you to read page 33v as well. For this reason, the correct method is to read the whole thing, but if you still want to skip to the last section and look at just one line, reminding you of the following information may help you.

1- My suggestion is that you examine the entire article without rushing. If you do not have time to do this, at least read the article at least once, taking some notes, to learn the details you need to pay attention to during the readings.

2- When you see the / (split) sign in texts, remember that the phonetic forms of the words on both sides of this sign show the possibilities that can correspond to a single word.

3- Try to understand syllabic signs logic first. In syllabic characters, go to our ATA alphabet transcription and find the sound equivalent of these syllabic characters first. For example in some cases, if the author's pen might have written the U sound, which is the second component of the CU sound, to be pronounced like IV, go to our ATA alphabet transcription and find the sound equivalent of this syllabic character, and proceed accordingly for phonetic variants.

4- There is no single dictionary where you can find all the words as they are written. I use many dictionaries but mainly 68 different dictionaries. A significant part of these are dictionaries compiled from colloquial speech. Most of these are paper-printed dictionaries. Sometimes I find words that are not in dictionaries in the articles of linguists (because they talk about different phonetic forms of many words in their articles) on translations of old manuscripts. Dictionaries generally show the phonetic forms of words in the majority dialects, which can be called Main Turkish or Türkiye Turkish. However, they do not mention the phonetic forms of the same words in local dialects. However, I can recommend you acquire the 5-volume "Ötüken Turkish Dictionary" (in paperprint format, ISBN 978-975-437-624-1). It would be helpful if you get this. However, you cannot find this dictionary as a PDF file online. Additionally, the dictionary named "Türk Dilinin Kökeni" (The Dictionary of The Origin of the Turkish Language) was written by Arif Cengiz Erman (ISBN 978-625-7647-54-0). Apart from these two dictionaries, you can obtain the ones I have marked in the table below from TDK dictionaries. (Some of these are available online as pdf on the TDK page.)
See this >

But you can search for more words on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. This page includes the contents of many dictionaries in its database.

However, we have already mentioned our dictionary resources for many words in our article. For this reason, it will be useful to read the article with its footnotes.

5- Do this with the 33v-related paper by reading & and following the ATA alphabet transcription tables on our homepage (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Using tables from other sites.

6- As an agglutinative language, learn how to look up words in Turkish dictionaries before looking at any dictionary. For example, you should know that by searching for a word as it is in English, you will not have the same experience as if you found it in the dictionary. Many words are formed only in their root form or with the suffix -mek/-mak or with a single specific word suffix.

For example, you should pay attention to the following:
(To use Turkish dictionaries effectively, here are some key points to consider)

A. > Root Form: In Turkish dictionaries, words are typically listed in their root form. This means that nouns are generally listed in their singular, nominative case (e.g., "ev" for "house"), and verbs are presented in their infinitive form (e.g., "yazmak" for "to write").

B. > Suffixes: Turkish is an agglutinative language, which means that many words can have various suffixes attached to indicate tense, mood, person, number, possession, and more. When looking up a word, you may need to strip it down to its root form if it includes any suffixes. For example, to find the word "yazıyorum" (I am writing), you would search for "yazmak."

C. > Reasons why some words may not be found in dictionaries as they are spoken:

C1. > Colloquial vs. Standard Language: Spoken local Turkish can include many colloquial or slang expressions that may not be included in standard dictionaries. For this reason, it should not be forgotten that it is necessary to look at the dictionaries of word root meaning contents.

C2. > Dialectal Variations: Turkish is spoken in various dialects across different regions. Some regional words or pronunciations might not be present in standard dictionaries that focus on the Istanbul dialect (considered standard Turkish). For VM texts, it is useful to look at the Black Sea, Trakya, and Istanbul Region Dialects dictionaries. I have printouts of these on paper, but if I find them in pdf, I will also share the address links.

C3.> Compound Words and Idioms: Turkish often employs compound words and idiomatic expressions. These combinations might not be listed in their entirety in dictionaries, as they usually focus on individual root words.

C4. > Phonetic Changes: Pronunciation in informal speech can differ substantially from the standard written form. Such phonetic variations may lead to difficulties in locating words if they are not written as they are pronounced.

C5. > Linguists know that in ancient languages and dialects, the habit of writing words with the sound form spoken by the writer was common. We know that in the Middle Ages, states/governments did not publish spelling rules. For this reason, the most important method used by comparative linguistics when comparing words in unknown local dialects with words in any language is to scan words that are close in phonetic value to the reference word. To do this, it will be useful to know the sound changes between dialects in the language you are examining, at least in their common phonetic transforms.

Conclusively, when using a Turkish dictionary, it's crucial to consider these factors and often simplify the word to its basic root or search using common, standard spellings. In other words, someone who does not know Turkish may need to search for or look up the phonetic forms of word roots and word suffix variations separately. Therefore, read the entire article and proceed by looking at the footnotes. If some word suffixes and roots are explained at the beginning of the article, they are not referenced again in the last section explaining the relevant line or sentence. After all, they are not repeated because they were explained in the previous pages.

An additional list of the dictionaries we use most can be seen in the references section below our relevant article.

Thank you for your interest.

My success in learning Turkish is really slow: I found the first obstacle to reading your article: I cannot find the translation of the word Türeşkoşum that you use.

(14-07-2024, 09:27 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[My success in learning Turkish is really slow: I found the first obstacle to reading your article: I cannot find the translation of the word Türeşkoşum that you use.]

Dear Novacna,

I assume that you have studied the Turkish content in the article to try to understand the content, and I appreciate your effort.

You can see (and I think you did) in the second footnote of the first page of the same article the meaning in which the word "tureşkosum" is used.

To put it briefly, the word "türeşkoşum" is used instead of "transcription". So much so that the phonetic form and semantic content of the syllable "TR-", which is the first syllable of the word in English, and the root word "TÜR-", which has the same meaning in Turkish, may attract the attention of some linguists.

The purpose of including this word in this article is to announce and suggest the use of the word to linguists and readers. The root of the word is the word "TÜR-". This word generally means "a set of objects or units that are distinguished from others by certain angular features, features-similar-varieties/species".

If we write the meaning of the word "TÜR" (TÜR-ep / type) in English, it means the following:
1) kind
2) type
3)species
4) sort
5) sort of
6) genre
7)breed
8) Variety
9) strain
10) class
11) race
12) genus
13) first
14) stripe
15) persuasion
See the meaning of the word TÜR: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The first connection of the word is the word "-EŞ". The word "eş" as an adjective means "equal, identical, matching, similar, duplicate, corresponding, fellow, correspondent, coequal". You can look at the meaning of the word "EŞ-" on the following dictionary page: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The last component of the word is the word "-KOŞUM". This word is the form of the word "KOŞMAK" and means "to combine, add/connect" and in linguistics it means "using two words with the same meaning side by side (added)".
See: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Therefore, "TÜREŞKŞUM" is a compound word. This word means the bringing together of "sounds values, letters, or words that have similar phonetic and semantic features".

(15-07-2024, 10:54 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The purpose of including this word in this article is to announce and suggest the use of the word to linguists and readers.

Do I understand that this term was just invented by you and that is why it does not appear in any dictionary?