The Voynich Ninja

Thanks Marco
I was just looking inside. In fact, Turkish written in the Latin alphabet from left to right.
Latin explanations in between.
The Turkish-German translations are also easy to read.
I'll have a closer look at it later. Especially the book description.
After the Turkish wars after 1550 there were some books like this.
Did not find the book description.

(30-07-2020, 10:42 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(30-07-2020, 10:15 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, you can use that kind of word repetition to make any word plural in old Turkish. Which of the old European languages has such a characteristic seen? If you only think about this particular issue of diversity and frequency in this respect, you would not even want to compare with English. No way.

That is indeed the kind of systematic reduplication we are looking for. But how often does it appear in a text? Do they always say "book book" for "books", or is this use exceptional?

Hi Koen G,

In my opinion, Repetitions to make words plural were already about to disappear in the Old-Turkish period. Normally these would be expected on every page of VMS. However, the author of VMS uses both plural words and plural-suffixes together. However, we encounter these repetitions in every few pages. Of course, the only reason for word repetitions is not to make words plural.

However, of course, to make such a claim, I cannot only present my own personal opinions or inferences. For this reason, I give some sources here and you can get an idea of the reason and frequency of word repetitions.

Obviously, it is generally known that Turkish word repeats are more common than other languages. However, I have not yet come across a study comparing word repetitions between any Old European language and Old Turkish. One reason for this type of study not being is that word repetitions are not common in Old European languages. 

> So, are there two different examples available to compare in same scale? <

Please think that, if binary repetitions were used to make words plural in any language, is it necessary to investigate the frequency of word repeats in that language?

But the resources I have shared here can give you an idea of this issue.

It is logical and wise to assume that binary repetitions of words are  probably more than 10 thousand years old in our spoken language. Because this structure is based on a very primitive logic, probably the same word was repeated twice to express the plurality before the plural suffixes of words existed in any language of the first humans who are starts speaking with sentences.

In today's Turkish, our suffix, which makes the words plural, is the suffix '-ler', '-lar'. I can say that this structure was also seen in the Old Turkish period. However, when we consider the Pre-Turkish languages, here we see the 4 different word suffixes, which had been essentially makes any word plural.

The linguist Arif Cengiz Erman wrote the following article on this subject and stated: "There are four plural suffixes in Turkish language. These are suffixes -r, -n, -t and -z plural. Some linguists say that -gün / -ğun and -s are also plural suffixes. So that, there are six plural suffixes in total together. But it is obvious that -gün / -ğun plural suffix is a kind of spelling of -n plural suffix and -s plural suffix is a spelling of -z plural suffix." In other words, some of these are forms of living with derivative sound values in different dialects.
[Source: <https://www.turkcenindirilisi.com/akademik/turk-dilinde-cogul-ekleri-arif-cengiz-erman-h6797.html>]

In other words, we know that the '-S' word-suffix, which makes the plural in English today, lives in the Pre-Turkish languages as '-Z' and as like its sound derivative '-S'. Although English and Turkish are languages of different structures, there are many common aspects that Western linguists do not realize.

Another problem is that the sources of information we have are mostly in Turkish. My English is insufficient to translate them correctly into English, but still the resources are diverse and I can give Turkish links to those, for who want more information.

For example, you can look at these sources too.
[<https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/658a/65c3f1a32c168a1838c9bd7e85d46d8be6ef.pdf>] &
[<http://turkoloji.cu.edu.tr/ESKI%20TURK%20DILI/2.php>]

Reinforcement with word repetition also constitutes an important aspect of Turkish. Much work has been done on this reinforcement, which is met with repetition, renewal, twin words and similar terms. The repetitions used since the oldest texts of Turkish are still widely used in all dialects of Turkish today. Word repetitions undertake functions such as strengthening meaning and ensuring continuity in the sentence. In Turkish, repetitions are used to strengthen the meaning of the sentence and to provide the expression of plurality and continuity.

[Please see page 28 to 32 in this source "DOCTORATE THESIS
By Birol İPEK / Fırat University Institute of Social Sciences Turkish Language and Literature Department 2009, Page: XV+809": <https://openaccess.firat.edu.tr/xmlui/bitstream/handle/11508/14622/240118.pdf?sequence=1>] ... etc...

Thanks,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta


Note: In Turkey, linguists compare the word repetitions in manuscripts between Turkish dialects. I could not see a comparison with European languages.
Some other sources about the issue: 
[<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>] &
[<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>] &
[<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>] &
[<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>] &
[<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>] &
[<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>] &
[<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>] &
[<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>] &
[<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>] &
[<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>] 
... etc ...

(28-07-2020, 03:25 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I lived in Azerbaijan for 25 years and did business there. Also my wife is Azerbaijani. One part of our family members live there and I try to go to Baku city at least once a year. Of course, I also work with Azerbaijani linguists during my trip.

That's what I figured.

Quote:Professor Dr. Firudin Celilov approved our work. But there are other linguists who confirm that the VM manuscript is written in Turkish. Some of them have repeated this fact verbally in some Turkish TV newsletters. Such as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You don't have a link to a version with English subtitles by any chance? Until then (at the very earliest), I have only your word that the guys in the clip you linked are qualified to assess your solution.

Quote:But many linguists never look at the files we send them. I think they throw the files into the trash without opening them.
Many people do not even know that this VM book exists.

The VMs is definitely not a subject nearly all linguists (or any other type of scholar or expert) would take an interest in, so that's not too surprising. Good thing then, as you mentioned, "there are other linguists who confirm that the VM manuscript is written in Turkish." Have you noticed any patterns in which linguists are receptive to your theory, and which are not? What do the academics who entertain your idea have in common? And what do the ones who ignore or dismiss your idea tend to have in common?

(31-07-2020, 10:53 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks Marco
I was just looking inside. In fact, Turkish written in the Latin alphabet from left to right.
Latin explanations in between.
The Turkish-German translations are also easy to read.
I'll have a closer look at it later. Especially the book description.
After the Turkish wars after 1550 there were some books like this.
Did not find the book description.

Hello Tentakulus,

Please let me give some more additional information. 

As an additional explanation; Before 1500, and also before VMS was written, there were other manuscripts that were written in Turkish with Latin alphabet, such as Codex Cumanicus. As you remember, in my previous note, I mentioned other examples by referring to their sources. 

In addition to that, The Turkish Runic alphabet was used before the Ottoman period.

It is a fact with scientific evidence that various alphabets were used among the people during the Ottoman period (before and after 1500) for sure.

In the Ottoman Empire, the sultan was also the Caliph. In other words, Ottoman Sultans also represented Islam, (which was come as the religion of the Arabs). For this reason, the official alphabet was the Arabic alphabet. To me this was just a political decision.

However, this decision was not reflected in all period among the public in Ottoman time. Some of the people preferred to use different alphabets instead of Arabic alphabet. This should include the Greek or Hebrews alphabet. For example, we know that some of the Turkish texts was written with Greek Alphabet. Because these are present on some ancient monuments and on some ancient tomb stones.

In addition, I have studied many other manuscripts which cannot be written (as like VMS) too. They have same patterns as VMS. These are not in the Arabic alphabet either, but written in Runic alphabet. I am thinking to write about them in the future.

I also planned our VMS book as (min.) 3 chapters, because the reading progresses continues, and new full pages will be read and I am thinking that writing about them. Those books will also contain information about other old-time texts I have read.

Our first book is ready for publication, but it will be in Turkish because this is my native language. But, if we will agree with an expert translator in the future, we would like to publish our books and articles in English too.

I will write the mistakes of the known VMS story in our first book. Our findings strongly show that this VMS and other manuscripts could have been stolen from Anatolia and Istanbul from 1890 to 1923 mostly. I am talking about 1 million different manuscripts.

There is also a lot of evidence that the antiquarian Voynich was a liar. His work was illegal and probably protected by the British state at that time. This person probably used multiple names and passports. I can say that Voynich probably did not give any correct information in his life about his business. 

These stolen manuscripts were offered for sale in almost every country in Europe. Sales have been made for more than 30 years and sales have been made in America too. After this dirty work by Voynich, there was an explosion in the number of manuscripts in Europe and America. Old ownership stories were also made up for almost all of the works sold to cover this dirty work.  

Voynich also add or produced some stories about like some manuscripts "have been donated" for buyers. These are the real facts about Voynich. This person also burned many of old manuscripts too. He also tore off the pages of manuscripts that were the Ottoman library seal.

Manuscripts are therefore incomplete and the same pattern applies for many manuscripts in Europe. We will write and talk about them and show some evidence about it.

The one of the reason I want to join this group is because I think\ may be we can cooperate on many issues.

Best regards,

Ahmet Ardıç

ATA Team Alberta

(31-07-2020, 10:14 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(28-07-2020, 03:25 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I lived in Azerbaijan for 25 years and did business there. Also my wife is Azerbaijani. One part of our family members live there and I try to go to Baku city at least once a year. Of course, I also work with Azerbaijani linguists during my trip.

That's what I figured.

Quote:Professor Dr. Firudin Celilov approved our work. But there are other linguists who confirm that the VM manuscript is written in Turkish. Some of them have repeated this fact verbally in some Turkish TV newsletters. Such as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You don't have a link to a version with English subtitles by any chance? Until then (at the very earliest), I have only your word that the guys in the clip you linked are qualified to assess your solution.

Quote:But many linguists never look at the files we send them. I think they throw the files into the trash without opening them.
Many people do not even know that this VM book exists.

The VMs is definitely not a subject nearly all linguists (or any other type of scholar or expert) would take an interest in, so that's not too surprising. Good thing then, as you mentioned, "there are other linguists who confirm that the VM manuscript is written in Turkish." Have you noticed any patterns in which linguists are receptive to your theory, and which are not? What do the academics who entertain your idea have in common? And what do the ones who ignore or dismiss your idea tend to have in common?

Hi,

One of these people Dr. and Faculty of Arts and Sciences Dean (expert in coding issues), other person Asst. Prof. Dr. and Faculty of Arts and Sciences Department of Turkish Language and Literature Head of Department. And Prof. Dr. Celilov is a well-known linguist in his work. He did many alphabet transcription studies. There were other experts, and these are from different universities. 

So, all of them have studies in the field of linguistics. Professor Celilov was retired. But he is still writing his new books. He read that many Etruscan inscriptions. He has written almost forty books about his working area. He was the former education minister of Azerbaijan Republic. Moreover, he gave us a reference in writing. 

Over time, we will share more information on our website and in our books. 

Other experts verbally approved yet, but we never ask any reference letter too. Because it is not logical to ask for a reference letter for a study that mathematics itself has approved. Of course, awareness will increase over time. Moreover, we are not in a hurry in any matter. I can say that we are moving slowly but confidently. 

Linguists mostly looked at the sound and sentence structures. None of the linguists I have presented our study have said that VMS is not in Turkish. But on the contrary, they said that VMS is in Turkish.

However, there were linguists on whom we could not reach consensus on the meaning of some words about 600 years ago. However, they disagree among themselves about the meaning content of some words about 600 years ago. I am sure that the details we have written about this will be approved in time. Anyway, such gray areas are very few in number.

A linguist did not agree with our view of the VMS author on dialectics. He suggested that this issue should be explored with different aspects, and only then the dialect will be known after more work he said.

So basically no one refused our main opinion. But there was also no return from many more academics that I sent files by post and e-mail. For this reason, I think that they probably don't read. But I must say that, I will strongly criticize those who do not open the file I sent.

Best regards,

Ahmet Ardıç

ATA Team Alberta

(31-07-2020, 07:10 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is the small clues that make it so difficult to believe that it is Turkish.
Example:
Why is the Latin alphabet used when in the Eastern Roman Empire, Greek was normal.

German is available. In one place there is a word even in the plant. If you want to interpret the "rot" as red.
And it is not simply German, it comes from the South German language area. Dialect form.
That also makes it difficult for me to believe that they are travellers.

Why should one write a book so detailed about medicine when Arabic medicine is years ahead.

Until now I have only seen that a 1 to 1 was applied. But I like to be surprised what follows.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

Hi,

The results could be difficult to believe as you are saying. But there are many scientific data and these are not personal implications to determine the outcome. I can both say and prove that all the data support what we write and say. 

Those who have been working on this subject for a long time will of course not be able to break their fixed ideas in one day. But this is not a problem because every mistake will corrected one day.

We don't want to interpret the "rot" as red as you said. But I must say that if you do not mind, this point of view is a personal view away from scientific foundations only.

Where did you see German dialect or any single German sentences in VMS? There is no any single German word in VMS.

Mr. Tentakulus, you please believe or not that but they are travelers for sure. In addition They are 9 person with 3 family, and children are included in this number. (This is clear information read in coded sections.)

Probably the second-hand in VMS texts is wife/husband of the author. (This is our estimate, And this is probably the right guess. Because there are some reasons that make us think like this, but I will not go into detail here because of my limited English.)

Thanks,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta

This is germanic:

[attachment=4624]
[attachment=4625]


"rot" is also German for red (it occurs twice, once from left to right and once from top to bottom), and the "g" on f1v is probably green, and the "por" (Viola plant) is probably purple/violet.

. 

The latter one was posted by MarcoP on the annotations thread.

Since "rot" is posted in two places, in two directions, and one is painted brick red, it can probably be interpreted as "red".

I am particularly obsessed by parallels and good parallels for features in the VMS are often impossible to find.
But in this case You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. pointed out a great one: the alchemical herbal Vicenza Bertoliana MS 362 (sample page from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). 

• The same word ("rot")
  
• In a similar manuscript (a one-plant-per-page herbal)
  
• In a similar position (annotating the plant illustration)
  
• From the same time-frame (XV Century)
  

I believe this particular piece of evidence adds immensely to the relevance of this detail. The parallel with the Vicenza ms was also published by Alain Touwaide in his 2015 paper "L'Erbario Voynich".


Moreover, the Vicenza ms contains other annotations that can be compared with the VMS: for instance 'g' for 'grün' inside green-painted leaves (see Rene's post I linked above).

I think this parallels have several possible implication:

• at least some members of the team that created the VMS spoke German;
  
• they were aware of this style of colour annotations;
  
• they were probably familiar with the "alchemical" one-plant-per-page layout.
  

But of course this evidence does not rule out the possibility that the underlying language of the main text is Turkic (though it certainly does nothing to support the idea).

[attachment=4627]

Thanks Marco and JKP for the nice examples.

What is also important, there is no color difference in the ink between the German and the VM text.
So it can be assumed that it was not written much later, and in a different place.

But the German is also supported by the crowns and merlons. There is no contradiction.
I won't even talk about the plant world.
Art style and clothing speak for themselves.

The syllable weave is seductive in Turkish.
As you wrote.
yapmak = basic form, "yap-yor-um" activity, time, person packed into one word.
yapyorum = to do-now-I = I am doing now.
yapyorsun= you do now.

It's not the word repetition but the syllables.
I wrote about this years ago.
Turkish is seductive.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

(01-08-2020, 03:37 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is germanic:





"rot" is also German for red (it occurs twice, once from left to right and once from top to bottom), and the "g" on f1v is probably green, and the "por" (Viola plant) is probably purple/violet.

. 

The latter one was posted by MarcoP on the annotations thread.

Since "rot" is posted in two places, in two directions, and one is painted brick red, it can probably be interpreted as "red".

Hi,

Sorry to say that, but the explanation you make right now is purely coincidental or a kind of anagram. 
I must say that these texts have nothing in German. Similar readings have been made for the last 100 years. If you prepare the alphabet transcription variants, you can find from 1 to 30 similarities in any language in the world. Anyway, one of the reasons for the VMS not being unlocked is that this kind of false inference is considered real. 

However, as I said before, we have not yet studied the last page of writing in detail. But in this section, the alphabet signs have partially changed. The writing is as if it had come from another hand. I think it is not possible to claim with based on a few analogy words. But, If you had read a sentence with some compound words, it might mean something.

Moreover, I think that many words in Proto-German language connected with Pre-Turkish languages and I am not the only one who thinks like that.

In addition, in VMS, some additions were made on many pages with a dark ink. Voynich probably did this himself. Just like on the first page. Here he used the dark ink over some original old-ink mostly. Probably, he was think that new ink looks not cover and it was looking new, than he think that the fake additions in most page can be work such as a kind of camouflage for his fake additions, because of the new (dark) ink was not match with that original color. So this probability is quite high.

I think that Voynich himself added some words throughout the VMS. For example, adding words such as like the words between the feet of goat figures. It doesn't matter what language they are in VMS with short text or some words. The important part is the language of the main large texts seen on every page throughout the manuscript. Which main part is in old Turkish.

It is known that many ancient manuscripts are written in mixed language. However, they usually have a main language, as well as words and some sentences in different languages. Writing on the basis of a few words cannot be indicate about VMS's main language such as German or any other language.

Thanks,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta