The Voynich Ninja

This is getting embarrassing now. You're not crushing anybody with your linguistic knowledge, and least of all actual linguists. The walls of text aren't obscuring the weaknesses in your arguments but amplifying them.

(12-05-2022, 07:33 PM)Pepper Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is getting embarrassing now. You're not crushing anybody with your linguistic knowledge, and least of all actual linguists. The walls of text aren't obscuring the weaknesses in your arguments but amplifying them.

None of the Turkologist linguists who can speak Turkish language and who have studied our work have been able to say that the content is not in Turkish, and they will not be able to say so in the future. On the contrary, some Turkish language experts themselves began to say that the texts contained Turkish. In other words, although the developments in this direction are progressing slowly, the process is developing in a positive way.

I think I have answered all the specific questions asked about what appear to be weaknesses in our study. If there are areas that are not understood, we explain them separately if there are specific questions to be given.

I don't know if there are questions or weaknesses that you think are still unanswered.

Could you please list of the weaknesses and/or unanswered ATA study arguments?

If you are going to list the questions that have been given before and have found the answer, it would be better if you could write clearly and in specific content about at which point the answer given before was not considered satisfactory.


At this point, let's leave personal opinions aside and talk about the way, methods, and evidence used by linguistics only.

Thanks

Reading the words between the pictures at the top of the page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:

[attachment=6539]

[attachment=6540]

You can find the meaning content of the words mentioned here on the following dictionary pages:
(The words that are closest in phonetic value to the way the author wrote in her/his dialect, which is about 600 years old, are taken as basis, and linguistics uses the same method in comparing old and new words.)

ORAPU/ARAPE > ARABE / ARAPE (waterway)> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
                                      ARABE (relative)> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

OPÇSU/APÇA-SI or ABCA-SI > APÇA (friend or friends)> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
                                            ABCA (sister)> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

OLAFU/OLAPU = ALOPA or O LAF-I > ALOPA (tribute received before the wedding) > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
                                       O (third person singular) > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.    
                                              LAF >  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

OLOFO/OLOPO = ALAKA or ALAFA > ALAFA (people who come to see if the bride is a virgin or not)> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

OL ERÜ/ÖLERÜ = OL ERİ or ÖLÜRÜ = OL (o) OL > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  
                                                        ER-İ (her man, her husband)  ER> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
                                                        ÖLÜR-Ü> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   
                                                            ÖL-mek > the root word is ÖL  > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

OYOR/OIYOR = AYAR (ayartmak / ayarmak > to seduce / work of seduction) = 
                         AYAR-mak = You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  =   Ayartmak > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

ÖFLÜ/ÖFİLÜ = EVLİ or ÖFLÜ or AFİLİ = (EVİLİ / EVLİ  is the word that is close to the phonetic value) 
                        EVLİ (married)>  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  
                                   ÖFLÜ (ünlü)>  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
                                                 AFİLİ (çalımlı, gösterişli > playful, flashy)> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

OYAPÇUÇCSU/OIYAPÇUÇCSU = O YAPÇA ÇOCU-SU = O yapça çocu-ğu (o dedikoducu çocuğu = that gossipy child) > 
                                              O (third person singular) > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
                                                 YAPÇA (söz taşıyan/dedikoducu, ara bozucu > gossip, disruptive) > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
                                                                 ÇOCU > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
                                                                                                                             
ALAR/AILAR/EİLER = ALIR/EYLER/ƏYLƏR = ALIR (almak > hold, get, take)>  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
                          The word EYLER/ ƏYLƏR appears in dictionaries as "eylemek" ve "əyləmək". 
                          The word has meanings such as "make, stop, stall, distraction/diversion, lingered", ... etc. 
                          The word is still using in Azerbaijani dialects and in some regions of Anatolia.
                          You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
                                                                             and   
                                              You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

OLAN / OILAN = OLAN / OĞLAN Bakınız; OLAN (oğlan > boy)> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  

                                     OĞLAN (boy) > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

There may be some errors in my translation from the 600-year-old Turkish language, whose dialect is unknown, to modern English, due to my broken English. My English is not at a good level anyway, but I still think the translation can be understood.

The author is talking about some of the practices among the people, which should probably be the practices that the author witnessed (observed) in the places she/he visited. We also understand from this that about 600 years ago, before or after marriage (probably in Europe where the author was observing), a group of women controlled whether the bride was a girl or not.

Thank you for reading

THE [attachment=6566] & [attachment=6567] ISSUE 

I will now point some likewise quote from another 15th century Turkish manuscript from some academic works. Even if you can't read or understand them, I share them to you to see text patterns footographically so that you can see their structural status and sound endings.

Please note that the dialect of the texts I shared below is fully known, and their analysis and translation into today's language by linguists was completed a long time ago. Even if we haven't been able to determine the dialect in VM texts yet, the sharing below will provide some information for researchers who have studied VM word- structures well and will allow them to see overlaps.

Academician Ms. Gülnaz Çetinkaya, in her academic article titled “Symbols in Dede Korkut Stories” published in 2015 (on page 246), has written the following, by referring to the D. Yıldırım's 2002 study and write that;

"The frequencies of the words used in Dede Korkut Stories represent the cultural understanding of the period when the stories were created or written down. D. Yıldırım gives the following information about the creation period and environment of the stories: "It is understood that the texts of the copies that we have received were known or were written in the field of Turkey between the second half of the 15th century and the first half of the 16th century. However, the archaic copy, which is the source of these texts, is dated to the earliest V.-VIII. It can be assumed that it was written between the centuries. The old bottom copy is dated IX.-XIV. it was changed from a copy written in Uyghur script to a new script [to Turkish alphabet with Arabic letters] between the centuries, in the fields of Khwarezm or Kashgar; we can save. XIV-XVI. I think they were copied in the centuries.” (Yıldırım 2002: 164-165)

The Dede Korkut Stories and informations that researchers working on are mostly collected from the Vatican and the Dresden copy of this manuscripts. (Yetişkin 1997)

(It was not known how the manuscripts in Ottoman libraries were smuggled to Europe and America until today. As I mentioned earlier, we can now predict how they were lost, and we will show clues and-or some evidence to support our strong predictions in our own written book (using the methods used by science and referring to historical events and dates). Why would the Vatican want to have a manuscript of Turkish folk tales? Moreover, there is no evidence that the bookseller Voynich or any other booksellers sold these works to the Vatican. However, there is no evidence that the Ottoman libraries and-or the sultans donated them to the Vatican too. The available data will show that the trade of second-hand booksellers can reach far beyond the numbers, volume and area estimated today.)

So, I am sharing some paragraphs from that Turkish manuscript of the 15th century, and my aim is to illustrate word reduplications (repeat spellings of the same word and end-of-line and end-of-line phonemes, and frequently used structures such as SAM/SEM, etc.) by pointing them with different colors to see easy. The following paragraphs are excerpted from different pages of this 15th century manuscript containing the Dede Korkut Stories.

And you can see the sound forms at the end of the last words at the end of the line. Moreover, if you examine these paragraphs quoted from different pages of the same old manuscript, just as you examine the Voynich texts, you may also think that some of them were written in a different language. However, they were written in the same language (in Turkish). You may think that some of them were written in a different language is just because the suffixes have changed due to the change in the form. So, for example, when you write in the third person singular aorist tense instead of the first person singular past tense, the word suffixes change accordingly. The same is true of the Voynich texts. Probably, some researchers may have mistaken and think those parts looks like different languages. All these are not easily understandable for those who do not know the lexical structure of the Turkish language, that's for sure.

Now look at the texts. And please pay special attention to the parts which marked by myself with different colors. For example, pay special attention to the sections where the letters SAM/SEM, [attachment=6566] and-or SAIIN/SAIN/SEİN (SAN/SEN) come together, the end-of-line sounds and word repetitions, and the frequency of the words SU/SÜ [attachment=6567] in the texts. 

(Note 1: Seeing SU/SÜ as SI/Sİ in some dialects is common among different Turkish dialects both in the ancient period and today.) 

(Note 2: SUM/SUM sound change can take the form of SIM/SİM according to the phonetic harmony of the vowel in front of the word. Likewise, the form of SUN/SÜN can take the form of SIN/SİN according to the vowel harmony before it. they change their sound forms according to their harmony. This is known as the vowel harmony rule in Turkish. These are already present in the natural harmony of the language and are generally familiar.)

(Note 3. Additionally, I have shown the first letter Y of words starting with the Y sound in a different color so you can see the diversity of these words and the frequency of words starting with Y in the texts.)

(Note 4: Some of you will remember that by showing a modern Turkish text here, I marked the parts containing the SAM/SEM [attachment=6566] sound with a blue mark. 
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In other words, I showed a similar situation in a modern Turkish text before, and now we make similar markings in one of the 15th century manuscripts.)

Here are the 15th century texts I mentioned:


Sam yilleri esmedin Kazan kulağum çınlar
Sarımsak otu yimedin Kazan içim göyinür
Saru yılan sokmadın ağça tenüm kalkar şişer    (Ergin 1997:164)
 
Ağaç ağaç dir isem sana erilenme ağaç
Mekke ile Medinenün kapısı ağaç
Musa Kelimün asası ağaç
Böyük böyük suların köprüsi ağaç
Kara kara denizlerin gimisi ağaç
Şah-ı merdan Alinün Düldülinün eyeri ağaç
Zülfikarun kını-y-ile kabzası ağaç
Şah Hasan-ile Hüseynün bişigi ağaç
Eger erdür eger avratdur korhusı ağaç
Başın ala bakar olsam başsuz ağaç
Dibün ala bakar olsam dipsüz ağaç…..      (Ergin 1997:109)
 
Karşu yatan kara tağı sorar olsam yaylak kimün
Sovuk sovuk sularını sorar olsam içit kimün
Tavla tavla şahbaz atları sorar olsam binit kimün
Katar katar develeri sorar olsam şölen kimün
Karalu göklü otağı sorar olsam kölge kimün      (Ergin 1997:138-139)
 
Karşu yatan kara tağları
Senden sonra men neylerem
Yaylar olsam menüm gorum olsun
Sovuk sovuk sularun
İçer olsam menüm kanum olsun
Altun akçan harcayur olsam menüm kefenüm olsun
Tavla tavla şahbaz atun menüm tabutum olsun
Senden sonra bir yiğidi
Sevüp varsam bile yatsam
Ala yılan olup meni soksun      (Ergin 1997:183)
 
İti kibi güv güv iden Çerkez hırslu
Küçücük tonuz şölenlü
Bir torba saman döşeklü
Yarım kerpiç yasduklu
Yonma ağaç tanrılu
Köpegüm kafir……     ( Ergin 1997: 238)
 
Mere kız ne ağlarsın ne buzlarsın ağa diyü
Yandı bağrum göyindi içüm
Meger senün ağan yok olupdur
Yüregüne kaynar yağlar koyulupdur
Kara bağrun sarsılupdur
Ağa deyü ne ağlarsın ne buzlarsın
Yandı bağrum göyindi içüm
Karşu yatan kara tağı sorar olsam yaylak kimün
Sovuk sovuk sularını sorar olsam içüt kimün      (Source: Ergin 1998:138)
 
[Source: Çetinkaya, Gülnaz. “Symbols in Dede Korkut Stories”, Hacettepe University Institute of Social Sciences Department of Turkish Language and Literature. Ph. D. Dissertation. Ankara,2015. <You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>]


Thanks,

  2 Tamarix (2 ILGA) plant on the page 99r

[attachment=6569]

Although we do not know why only the root or stem of the plant is drawn, it is possible that the name of this plant is written in the form of ILGAX or ILGAF/ILGAP. So much so that the letter at the end is a little unclear and maybe faded / faded over time, but this could be a P/F or X. However, it can be said that (after about the 600 years that have been passed), the sound (-X or -P/-F) at the end of this word in our modern Turkish language has dropped/disappeared. 

Today we call this plant ILGA. But in some dialects in Turkish it is also called as ILGIN too. 
In other words, it can be considered as a possibility that the last sound may have turned into the IN sound in some other dialects.

To see > ILGA = ILGIN >  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

To see meaning of the ILGIN (ılga) >  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  

I quoted the photos from these sources:

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There are different types of Tamarix (ILGA / ILGIN) plant as well. May be, botanists will interpret the root structure in the drawing more clearly. 
For example, you can see the "Tamarix bonsai" plant in this images.  


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From the folio 78v:

XÇCSU OF (kıçcığını ov)
or
XÇC SU OF (Kıçcığı suyla ov / kıçı su ov)
may translate in English:

1> Rub your little/young ass (poop/butt)
2> Rub your/their-own small ass with water

[attachment=6570]

We have said before that the author deliberately wrote some words separately, but they should not be written separately in Turkish. Moreover, we have shown examples of this. Likewise, the author sometimes combines separate words. Nor are they expected to be normally joined together. However, we think that the author deliberately did this job of splitting or concatenating words. We can probably say that the author himself wanted the texts he wrote to be as difficult to read as possible.

For this reason, two or three words written by the author can be mentioned here. In the author's spelling: "XÇCSU OF" or "XÇC SU OF" is written. Here, in the first variant (XÇCSU OF), it can be evaluated as the -SU word-affix at the end of the first word. In the second variant, we can treat SU as a word. So, if "SU" is a word, it means "water" and "aqua".
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In writing "XÇCSU OF", the root of the word is written in the form "XÇ-". This is an abbreviated spelling. The first sound, "X", has turned into "H" and "K" sounds today in Anatolian-Turkish. Here, we write the word "XÇ-" by the author today as "KIÇ" (ass & poop & butt). A very small sound change can be counted in the 600 years that have passed since then. It is known that today, in dialects of the Turkish language, X > H > K sounds are constantly transforming into each other. 
Please see the meaning content of the word KIÇ here; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Here, the first word-suffix adjoining this root word is -C-. This suffix is also a diminutive and polite preposition written in abbreviated form.

The author used to write kıçcı (XÇC-) > kıçcık/kıçcığı" (small-ass/young-ass) instead of "kıç" (XÇ- > ass). I don't know the exact meaning of this in English, but I can say that it means "little/younger ass" in a sense. Here, this word suffix adds the meanings of "small, little, minor, young, younger, petty" to the root word. So it is possible to translate it (XÇC-) as "small ass", "young ass" or "petty ass" in English.

See this -C- (cıı/cığı/cık/... etc) > source about this suffixe: Miandoab, N. Z. "The concept of reduction in Turkish language and reduction suffixes: (a comparative study with modern Oghuz dialects)". Journal of Turkology 22 (2018): 213-237 /  Mıandoab, N. Z. "Türk dilinde küçültme kavramı ve küçültme ekleri (modern Oğuz lehçeleri ile karşılaştırmalı bir inceleme)". Türkoloji Dergisi 22 (2018 ) : 213-237

And see this: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

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&
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In this case, the "-SU" suffixe at the and as (XÇC-SU) is English equivalent of "the, that, their, his/her". Also, this suffix "-si/-su/-si-/-su" can sometimes indicate a reinforcement function in the language and sometimes a relation of belonging too. 

In this case the word XÇCSU means "your/their young ass" & "your/their-own ass" in English.

But if "-SU" at this end is evaluated as not suffix, but as a word, it means "water". See: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The word "OF" at the end is now written as "OV".

F > V sound transformation is a situation that is frequently seen both in Old Turkish period and today between different dialects. Also, this sound conversion is often recorded in VM-texts too in same way. (So this is not the only example, we have seen the same sound change while reading other words.)

You can see the semantic content of the word OV in dictionaries in the form of "OV-MAK" with the word-suffix "-mak". (I have explained why this is so and the function of the -mak suffix earlier in these pages.)

Meaning of the word OV / OV-mak are: 
1) rub
2) scrub
3) scour
4) rub down
5) massage
6) knead
7) scour away
8) scour off
9) to stroke (okşamak)
Please see this OV (OVmak):  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

In this case, the translation difference between the author's writing of XÇCSU OF (kıçcığını ov) or XÇC SU OF (Kıçcığı suyla ov / kıçı su ov) may translate in English as:
1> Rub your little/young ass
2> Rub your/their-own ass with water

In both cases we see a clear match between the drawing and these words. Because the author has drawn female figures bathing on page 78v, and all of the women drawn here are drawn as if massaging or washing their ass with one hand.

Hello Ahmet!

Do you have any idea why the root of "tamarix" looks like an animal?

(29-05-2022, 07:38 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello Ahmet!

[Do you have any idea why the root of "tamarix" looks like an animal?]

Dear Novacna,

No, 
I had not even considered the possibility that the roots of this tamarix plant could be compared to some animals. 
I would like to know if you have any information or opinion on this subject. 
Thank you.

On page 82v, two words are written consecutively at the top. 

[attachment=6580]

Here, the author may have written these words separately as like SAM OYU or adjacent it like as SEMOYU. However, whether they are written as a compound word or not, their meaning content will be the same in Turkish. In other words, in this case, this has not created an element or difference that can change the meaning.

In the manuscript dictionary named "Dîvânu Lugâti't-Türk", (which was written by Kaşgarlı Mahmud in between year1072-1074), some of the meaning content of the word SEM shown that "ilâç, ilâç-yapmak / ilâç etmek, sağaltmak". Which means in English; "medicine, to cure, medicine-making, heal, to medicate, madicine-making".

I have previously stated about the function of the suffix -U/-I at the end of the word OYU/AYI and what meaning it adds to the root word. The word, which was written in the form of OY, is now written in the form of AY in Turkey Turkish. However, still in some dialects, there are groups that pronounce this word as OY today. 
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The English equivalent of the word OY/AY is "moon", and "month". In addition, the word OY-U/AY-I is a word that expresses a certain time period. For example, the word ORAK+AYI means "the crops reaping period".

So, the word "SEM AY-I / SEM OY-U" (the month of SEM) means "the period in which the drugs are made" and "the madicine-making month".

SEM > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
AY > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

[attachment=6582]

The words 8 ÇUCSU / 8 ÇOCU-SU (8 çocuğu > 8 CHILDREN / 8 JUNIOR) mean "that eight children", and "the/that/their/those eight children".
Because that "-SU" ("-si/-su/-si-/-su") suffixe at the and is English equivalent of "the, that, their,... " .

The word ÇOCUK means boy/girl, child, kid, infant, juvenile, youngster, junior, ... etc
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The word ÇOCU-ĞU / ÇOCU-SU was written by the author in its abbreviated form. Here it is written by the outhor by dropping the -U- vowel sound in the middle of this word , or the way it is pronounced in the author's dialect as is. And today it can be said in different ways in different dialects such as çucug, çocu, çaa, çağa etc. You can see some of them below.
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The word "child" in Turkish does not contain gender. 

In other words, it is not possible to express them with different words in the sense of "boy" or "girl" as in English. If you want to indicate the gender of the child, you can use the expressions as girl-child (kız çocuğu) or boy-child (er/erkek çocuğu). But if you just type ÇOCUK (CHILD) then this can be both a girl and a boy.