The Voynich Ninja

(30-07-2020, 08:39 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Basically:
On page f116 in the VM I see a text, probably written in a romanic dialect.
At different places I have German text.
Why should I assume that a third language is suddenly in play.
At the same time there is the change of the writing direction. left-right, right-left.
There is also no hint in the drawings to an origin in the Middle East.
Your explanations about prefixes and suffixes would ( example ) also work in German.
E.g.: (go) gehen: auf-gehen, zu-gehen, vor-gehen, ver-gehen, aus-gehen. Endings like -heit , -keit, -ung, -nis, -tum are also not uncommon.
If I would take the VM-sign "o" at the beginning of a word and use it as "a", it would even have a multiple function.

So why Turkish ?
The same applies to all languages where writing is from right to left.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

Hi,

In my opinion there is no any sign or material to say that "the text on page f116 written in a Romanic dialect". The text on f116, some alphabet characters has been drawn differently, such as 'B' and 'L'. The text on the F116 page probably was written with a different hand. On this page, we only read a few words in Turkish. 

For example, the second word from the beginning (the second word in the first line of the triple lined paragraph) is the word OLAŞABAŞ (or OLASABAŞ). In this word, the first 'Ş' has become somewhat dimmed over time, or the page 116 writer separated the letter 'S' and letter 'Ş' in her/his writing.  

This paragraph may have been written by the recipient of the post when the author completed the VMS, possibly sending VMS pages to a specific address. I think the author of the VMS made two copies of each page of this book. When the author has been found the opportunity, she/he sent this work to the receiver (the author call receiver as 'paşam' (my phasha)) part by part with using a private messenger. 

I don't think the author did or saw the work of merging and/or binding the book. Or maybe she/he might have seen the work combined as a whole book at the end of the job (after a while). In other words, I think that an officer in the Ottoman Palace may be wrote f-116 to create a kind of registration note about this work. 

I haven't had the opportunity to analyze page 116 in detail yet. However, a new transcription must be made for the articles here on f116. 

OLAŞABAŞ (ola + şabaş) is a compound word. The word is a combination of the words 'OLA' (ol-a) and 'ŞABAŞ'. The root of this word is 'OL-'.

In dictionaries, you can only see this (ol) word with the -mak / -mak word suffix (such as 'olmak').
(The suffixes “-mek/-mak”: these are suffixes of Turkish infinitive. They turn the root word into a verb as well as also a concrete noun.) [You can see the root OL in OL-MAK: <https://sozce.com/nedir/241157-olmak>]

The word 'ŞABAŞ' is about to be forgotten in Anatolia. This word is still widely used in Azerbaijan Turkish. In Azerbaijani Turkish dialects, this word is still used in the meanings of 'donating', 'giving money', 'tipping'. Some linguists write that the origin of the word is Persian, but there is no clear evidence for this, and in my opinion, the word origin is Pre-Turkish language.

[See the word 'Şabaş' in Anatolian Turkish; <https://sozce.com/nedir/293789-sabas>] & [The word 'Şabaş' in Azerbaijani Turkish; <https://www.azleks.az/online-dictionary/%C5%9Faba%C5%9F>]

Briefly, translation of the word 'OLA + ŞABAŞ' should be; "whether this is a gift", "donated" or "presented as a donation".

Anyway, I can't see any German text or word in VMS. So, It is not a third language as you assume, but may be it is the text with similar (but little different) alphabet in other Turkish dialect.

Changing writing direction (left-right, right-left) issue is not important information. There are ancient texts written in Runic alphabet in Turkish language and some of them are written from top to bottom. In other words, there is no connection between Turkish language and writing direction. Those who used the Arabic alphabet wrote from right to left. Or those who used the Runic alphabet wrote from right to left (mostly). We also know that those who use the Latin alphabet write from left to right and in Turkish. There are many sources and evidence on this subject. I shared some of them in my previous comment.

Could you please give me a specific drawing example from VMS which give us hint as in the drawings to an origin in Europe? And, Why Europe and why not from Anatolia or other area?

In addition, to interpret or compare the drawings of Voynich manuscripts, you must have knowledge about Middle Eastern and/or Turkish manuscripts too.

I think we should focus on specific evidence not personal ideas.  I can also write my personal opinion on this subject. For example; In my opinion, there is no any scientific evidence to describe or connect as the VMS drawings from European origin. On the contrary, there are many signs about it will not from European origin. In Early 15th century, weren't there any people who were accused of witchcraft and burned down by the Christian inquisition court just because of nude women drawings, or because of unknown plants and some liquids drawings? In the same time period, the area of personal  freedom in the Ottoman land probably was more developed than Europe. 

However, please note that we are saying that the author of VMS is a traveler in Europe. In our opinion, the author must have written this work while during a trip from Southern Italy to Constantinople (Istanbul).

The fact that the author is a traveler in Europe, it shows that she/he made the drawings according to what she/he saw in Europe. However, in reality, VMS drawings does not contain information about the language of writing or the nationality of the author. 
Our claim is about the language of VMS only. We know the author is a traveler because we have partially read the coded chapters.

As you are saying that; Our explanations about prefixes and suffixes can be also work in German for sure. So, what is the point of this info? VMS is not written in German language, because the text that appeared in VMS is following many Turkish phonetic and morphological structures. In addition I am reading VMS in old Turkish as like as my Russian newspaper which language I am currently learning.
 
If you will read VMS, please feel free to take the VM-sign "o" at the beginning of a word and use it as "a", for having a multiple function as you are saying. Than you can read VMS in German or may be in any other language. This is a situation where linguists have tried many times around the world but have not been successful. 

Because mathematical probabilities account allows them to read only 1 or 30 words from a 240 page VMS book in any language with using any alphabet transcription but not much. Any person can do this type of reading in any language of the world in VM. 

We have read more than 600 words and about hundred complete sentences. Moreover, more than 70 words match the drawing/image on the same page. These numbers will increase as readings continue because I haven't had time to focus on the majority page of the VMS yet. 

If you read 600 words and 100 sentences in this type of writing, it announcing that mathematics itself has confirmed the transcription of your alphabet. For this reason, no other evidence is sought. 

Let me inform you that we read the sign 'O' as 'O' and 'Ö', but we never read sign 'O' as 'A'. [<http://www.turkicresearch.com/docs/BaseAlphabetTrancription.pdf>]

The author wrote 'OY' instead of 'AY'. This is a dialectal difference. So there is no situation to be confused. For example, the word, which is write and read (voiced) as 'OY' (moon & month) in the Uzbek Turkish language, and it is 'AY' in most Anatolian dialects.

In our ATA transcription for VMS, we reflect that sound 'A' and the sound 'E' with the same sign. Because the author did this 600 years ago. It is not a situation we produce. Moreover, the same situation has been observed in many historical texts too. So this is not just a case specific to VMS. There are other examples in history. We wrote them with all the details in our book. We also presented the evidence with its details.

Sorry, but saying "The same applies to all languages where writing is from right to left" is an unscientific generalization or personal opinion only.

So, your main question was "why Turkish ?"

For the past 100 years, VMS has been trying to read, but no one has been able to read it. Because incorrect conclusions were made about VMS consistently, including all recommended alphabet transcriptions before. 

Therefore, it can be said that the European centered perspective could not solve this lock. 

We made an alphabet transcription for it, which transcription is working for read VMS. If we proceed on specific examples, you will easily understand that VMS is in Turkish.

Using ATA alphabet transcription in VMS in many cases, different readings of a word in the same sentence can be found without breaking the integrity of that sentence. Because this is not our preference, but we can say 600 years ago that the VM author found it appropriate to do so. 

In Turkish double, triple, quadruple, and quintile repetitions of the same word (for different purpose and/or functions) are also seen (as same as in VMS). Can you please say us that same thing is found in any other European language?

Thanks,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta

(30-07-2020, 08:39 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Basically:
On page f116 in the VM I see a text, probably written in a romanic dialect.
At different places I have German text.
Why should I assume that a third language is suddenly in play.
At the same time there is the change of the writing direction. left-right, right-left.
There is also no hint in the drawings to an origin in the Middle East.
Your explanations about prefixes and suffixes would ( example ) also work in German.
E.g.: (go) gehen: auf-gehen, zu-gehen, vor-gehen, ver-gehen, aus-gehen. Endings like -heit , -keit, -ung, -nis, -tum are also not uncommon.
If I would take the VM-sign "o" at the beginning of a word and use it as "a", it would even have a multiple function.

So why Turkish ?
The same applies to all languages where writing is from right to left.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

Hi,

In my opinion there is no any sign or material to say that "the text on page f116 written in a Romanic dialect". The text on f116, some alphabet characters has been drawn differently, such as 'B' and 'L'. The text on the F116 page probably was written with a different hand. On this page, we only read a few words in Turkish. 

For example, the second word from the beginning (the second word in the first line of the triple lined paragraph) is the word OLAŞABAŞ (or OLASABAŞ). In this word, the first 'Ş' has become somewhat dimmed over time, or the page 116 writer separated the letter 'S' and letter 'Ş' in her/his writing.  

This paragraph may have been written by the recipient of the post when the author completed the VMS, possibly sending VMS pages to a specific address. I think the author of the VMS made two copies of each page of this book. When the author has been found the opportunity, she/he sent this work to the receiver (the author call receiver as 'paşam' (my phasha)) part by part with using a private messenger. 

I don't think the author did or saw the work of merging and/or binding the book. Or maybe she/he might have seen the work combined as a whole book at the end of the job (after a while). In other words, I think that an officer in the Ottoman Palace may be wrote f-116 to create a kind of registration note about this work. 

I haven't had the opportunity to analyze page 116 in detail yet. However, a new transcription must be made for the articles here on f116. 

OLAŞABAŞ (ola + şabaş) is a compound word. The word is a combination of the words 'OLA' (ol-a) and 'ŞABAŞ'. The root of this word is 'OL-'.

In dictionaries, you can only see this (ol) word with the -mak / -mak word suffix (such as 'olmak').
(The suffixes “-mek/-mak”: these are suffixes of Turkish infinitive. They turn the root word into a verb as well as also a concrete noun.) [You can see the root OL in OL-MAK: <https://sozce.com/nedir/241157-olmak>]

The word 'ŞABAŞ' is about to be forgotten in Anatolia. This word is still widely used in Azerbaijan Turkish. In Azerbaijani Turkish dialects, this word is still used in the meanings of 'donating', 'giving money', 'tipping'. Some linguists write that the origin of the word is Persian, but there is no clear evidence for this, and in my opinion, the word origin is Pre-Turkish language.

[See the word 'Şabaş' in Anatolian Turkish; <https://sozce.com/nedir/293789-sabas>] & [The word 'Şabaş' in Azerbaijani Turkish; <https://www.azleks.az/online-dictionary/%C5%9Faba%C5%9F>]

Briefly, translation of the word 'OLA + ŞABAŞ' should be; "whether this is a gift", "donated" or "presented as a donation".

Anyway, I can't see any German text or word in VMS. So, It is not a third language as you assume, but may be it is the text with similar (but little different) alphabet in other Turkish dialect.

Changing writing direction (left-right, right-left) issue is not important information. There are ancient texts written in Runic alphabet in Turkish language and some of them are written from top to bottom. In other words, there is no connection between Turkish language and writing direction. Those who used the Arabic alphabet wrote from right to left. Or those who used the Runic alphabet wrote from right to left (mostly). We also know that those who use the Latin alphabet write from left to right and in Turkish. There are many sources and evidence on this subject. I shared some of them in my previous comment.

Could you please give me a specific drawing example from VMS which give us hint as in the drawings to an origin in Europe? And, Why Europe and why not from Anatolia or other area?

In addition, to interpret or compare the drawings of Voynich manuscripts, you must have knowledge about Middle Eastern and/or Turkish manuscripts too.

I think we should focus on specific evidence not personal ideas.  I can also write my personal opinion on this subject. For example; In my opinion, there is no any scientific evidence to describe or connect as the VMS drawings from European origin. On the contrary, there are many signs about it will not from European origin. In Early 15th century, weren't there any people who were accused of witchcraft and burned down by the Christian inquisition court just because of nude women drawings, or because of unknown plants and some liquids drawings? In the same time period, the area of personal  freedom in the Ottoman land probably was more developed than Europe. 

However, please note that we are saying that the author of VMS is a traveler in Europe. In our opinion, the author must have written this work while during a trip from Southern Italy to Constantinople (Istanbul).

The fact that the author is a traveler in Europe, it shows that she/he made the drawings according to what she/he saw in Europe. However, in reality, VMS drawings does not contain information about the language of writing or the nationality of the author. 
Our claim is about the language of VMS only. We know the author is a traveler because we have partially read the coded chapters.

As you are saying that; Our explanations about prefixes and suffixes can be also work in German for sure. So, what is the point of this info? VMS is not written in German language, because the text that appeared in VMS is following many Turkish phonetic and morphological structures. In addition I am reading VMS in old Turkish as like as my Russian newspaper which language I am currently learning.
 
If you will read VMS, please feel free to take the VM-sign "o" at the beginning of a word and use it as "a", for having a multiple function as you are saying. Than you can read VMS in German or may be in any other language. This is a situation where linguists have tried many times around the world but have not been successful. 

Because mathematical probabilities account allows them to read only 1 or 30 words from a 240 page VMS book in any language with using any alphabet transcription but not much. Any person can do this type of reading in any language of the world in VM. 

We have read more than 600 words and about hundred complete sentences. Moreover, more than 70 words match the drawing/image on the same page. These numbers will increase as readings continue because I haven't had time to focus on the majority page of the VMS yet. 

If you read 600 words and 100 sentences in this type of writing, it announcing that mathematics itself has confirmed the transcription of your alphabet. For this reason, no other evidence is sought. 

Let me inform you that we read the sign 'O' as 'O' and 'Ö', but we never read sign 'O' as 'A'. [<http://www.turkicresearch.com/docs/BaseAlphabetTrancription.pdf>]

The author wrote 'OY' instead of 'AY'. This is a dialectal difference. So there is no situation to be confused. For example, the word, which is write and read (voiced) as 'OY' (moon & month) in the Uzbek Turkish language, and it is 'AY' in most Anatolian dialects.

In our ATA transcription for VMS, we reflect that sound 'A' and the sound 'E' with the same sign. Because the author did this 600 years ago. It is not a situation we produce. Moreover, the same situation has been observed in many historical texts too. So this is not just a case specific to VMS. There are other examples in history. We wrote them with all the details in our book. We also presented the evidence with its details.

Sorry, but saying "The same applies to all languages where writing is from right to left" is an unscientific generalization or personal opinion only.

So, your main question was "why Turkish ?"

For the past 100 years, VMS has been trying to read, but no one has been able to read it. Because incorrect conclusions were made about VMS consistently, including all recommended alphabet transcriptions before. 

Therefore, it can be said that the European centered perspective could not solve this lock. 

We made an alphabet transcription for it, which transcription is working for read VMS. If we proceed on specific examples, you will easily understand that VMS is in Turkish.

Using ATA alphabet transcription in VMS in many cases, different readings of a word in the same sentence can be found without breaking the integrity of that sentence. Because this is not our preference, but we can say 600 years ago that the VM author found it appropriate to do so. 

In Turkish double, triple, quadruple, and quintile repetitions of the same word (for different purpose and/or functions) are also seen (as same as in VMS). Can you please say us that same thing is found in any other European language?

Thanks,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta

Ahmet Ardıç wrote:
"In Turkish double, triple, quadruple, and quintile repetitions of the same word (for different purpose and/or functions) are also seen (as same as in VMS). Can you please say us that same thing is found in any other European language?"

This is probably not quite what you meant, but yes, repetition like that can occur in English :
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

"Words, words, words."—Hamlet
"O horror, horror, horror."—Macbeth
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

to record record profits
to address address problems 
to refuse refuse charges
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(30-07-2020, 01:46 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Ahmet,
thank you for the additional information!
Since a few years, I believe that labels may be a good way to test a proposed solution. So I had a look at your analysis of the Libra roundel in f72v1 (discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

For comparison, I paste here Takahashi's and Zandbergen-Landini's transliterations of these words:

TT  otalal.dalal.ykeols.oteos.aiin.yotoam.oteey.saiin.oteoos.am.

ZL.r otalal.dalal.ykeols.oteo,r,aiin.yotoam.oteey.saiin.oteeos,am

ATA1 OYAPAP SAPAP ÜLCÖP 2 ÖYCÖ ZAĞN 9 OYOEK OYGU ZAĞN OYGÖZEK
ATA2 AY+AHBAP SAPIP ÖLÇÜP 2 ÖLÇÜ-SAĞIN 9 AYA+EK AYGI SAĞIN AY+GÖZEK
ATA3 AY+AHPAP SAPIP ÖLÇÜP İKİ ÖLÇÜ-SAĞIN DOKUZ AYA+EK AYGI SAĞIN AY+GÖZEK

English Translation: “Hey friends, with using the deviating measurement (scale), to make two net-right-measurements for clearly expressing that period over nine months, let's count the months and observe the moon with the tool.”

Comment:

Quote:From here we understand that the author's message is for pregnant women.

I don't see any great difference between this translation and other similar attempts, e.g. Cheshire's proto-romance or the recent Hebrew solution by Rainer Hanning.

Here are a few observations and suggestions. I am not a linguist nor any kind of expert, it's just the point of view of a Voynich amateur.

*A*
From how it is presented, the above translation appears to be a word-salad which does not strike me as very meaningful.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. about Hanning's Hebrew solution come to mind:

Quote:The overwhelming feeling is that Hannig, having extracted Hebrew letters for a Voynich word, then scoured Hebrew dictionaries for any word, archaic and rare as it may be, for anything that will match or semi-match.

Your Turkish-English translation is notably a-grammatical, e.g. it only includes impersonal verb forms (present participle, infinitive, imperative). The approach seems to be: 1) map to Latin characters, 2) browse a dictionary to get a word salad, 3) get some sense out of it. This is the most widespread Voynich translation approach. It works with any language, but it requires renouncing to grammar.
Suggestion: provide more details about verifiable grammatical structures, showing that your approach is very different from those of other "solvers".

*B* 
"Hey friends" sounds like a strange thing to write in a short text at the centre of a page for a central sign in a several pages long zodiac section. I must say I don't think I have ever read anything similar in a medieval manuscript. Is this formula something that is often found in Turkish medieval scientific manuscripts?
Also, the two different meanings of saiin in a single sentence should be supported by parallels in actual documents.
Suggestion: attach examples from other Turkish manuscripts for all the constructs for which parallels exist. Expect anything that is not clearly documented to be considered unconvincing.

*C* 
In the German You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Libra is called "die wag" ("the scales" in German). In the Latin You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it is called "Libra" ("the scales" in Latin).
This is totally normal in European manuscripts. I don't think that "the deviating measurement" is the normal way to say "the scales" in Turkish? Isn't there a simpler word?
Also, the words that should point to pregnancy ("nine months" and possibly the moon), are:
1. the immensely frequent voynichese glyph y which is arbitrarily detached from yotoam and interpreted as the Arabic number 9 (rendered with the Turkish word "dokuz")
2.  oteoos.am which is arbitrarily re-arranged as ot-eoosam;  eoosam is read as GÖZEK, of which it is said:  "The word '+ GÖZEK' is used for observing the sky with a tool and for counting months/days. (Which mean looking to the moon/sky with binoculars or with a lens-observation-tool.) From the handwriting written here, we understand that the author observed the sky with using some kind of lens instrument. (We think at the same time that the author carefully wrote this manuscript with using a magnifying glass. The author should probably have also looked small creatures with using magnifiers for seeing those which creatures invisible with looking naked eye...)"
I would like to see a dictionary entry for GÖZEK, but even if there actually is an entry for "observing the sky with a tool and counting months", I don't think that translating as "nine months" is legitimate. y (nine) and eoosam (counting months?) are separated by four other Voynichese words: it seems implausible that they are closely connected.
Suggestion: always link specific entries in an online-available dictionary or add quotes of a specific Turkish-English dictionary. And, again, make clear the grammatical relationship between words. Maybe parse-trees could help?

*D*
It seems you are not familiar with what others have found about the  Voynich manuscript. For instance this is your comment about the "octe(m)bre" annotation: "This word should have been added in a later period by a different person by using a different pen. We think that this addition was added by the antiquarian Voynich or one of his workers at the time period." Researchers substantially agree on dating the month names to the late XV / early XVI Century; there is no reason to believe that they are as late as the XX Century. But this is just a minor example, you don't seem to be aware of Currier's languages, line effects, low character entropy, reduplication and quasi-reduplication, Grove words etc.
Suggestion: read what others have written about Voynichese (Rene's voynich.nu site is a great resource) and show how your Turkish hypothesis can explain the phenomena that other researches have pointed out in the past decades.

---

There are many people who published translations which are similar to yours in both method and results. If you are not satisfied with Turkish TV and you want to reach a wider, unbiased audience, your best hope is being more rigorous than your numberless competitors.

You wrote:

Quote:I am very confident in saying that "in the future, no linguist will be able to prove that VMS writing is not Turkish if her/his professional knowledge of Turkish language is not weak" for sure. 

Things don't  work that way. If you claim that the VMS is written in Turkish, the burden of proof is on you. Linguists are totally free to ignore your claims. On the contrary, you should provide solid evidence in support of your ideas. The translation you propose appears to be comparable with other Voynich translations written in different languages. Of course it is impossible to prove that the VMS is not Turkish (or Latin, or Hebrew etc). This does not show that your hypothesis is better than others, it only shows the current state of Voynich research.

Hi MarcoP,

Thank you for your suggestions. Yes, you are right in some of your suggestions. Our web page is still in the testing phase and you are right, we should share more dictionary links for more words and we nee to share more information for sure. I think I have some carelessness problem and I accept them and I will complete the shortcomings in our web-page as I find time.

I can say that I am currently focusing on reading new sentences in my spare time and I am ignoring the shortcomings temporarily.

Since my English is not good, I cannot fully understand long texts and texts that are not written in simple words in English.

May be researchers are wrong about the calendar issue.

There is no lunar calendar in VMS. Here in VMS, there is a farmers calendar. Farmers follow nature and divide a year into 12 parts. For example, there are definitions such as (orak / orak ayı ) "when (time) they mow cereals in the field".
For example, in the farmers calendar ORAK is a month period. The author wrote this word in VMS as 'ÇAĞI ORAK' (harvesting time).

ORAK (Temmuz = July / See 'Türkiye Türkçesi Ağızları Sözlüğü'
orak anlamı 1. Ekin biçme zamanı = Crop mowing time)  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

ORAK AYI (Temmuz = July)  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

ÇAĞI mean time and period (the root is ÇAĞ and '-I' is the word suffix) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
“-İ/-I”: these are an Object Pointer Suffixes (Turkish Direct Object Suffix (accusative) such as “the” in English). (Clauson, Guise) There is a construction in Turkish which means "belonging to". In English generally only the possessor is marked as in Ahmet's car. The 's tells us that the car belongs to Ahmet. The possessed (Formation of the Possessed) item in Turkish is suffixed with -i, -ı, -u, 

So, 'ÇAĞI ORAK' mean 'harvesting period' and 'July time'.

In other words, this is not a moon calendar for sure.

I have not studied the Hebrew claims much, but I have only partially read them. If you see both studies (our claim and the Hebrew claim) at the same level, or you think our claim is weak than any other possibility for VMS, you may be really far from linguistics. But this is normal because trying to understand Turkish deeply is a very demanding job.

There are linguists who have confirmed our study. Over time, their number will increase because there is still no awareness about this issue in the Turkish language geography.

I read this VMS texts in Turkish like my daily Russian newspaper, so there is no other area (such as Hebrew) for us.

Unfortunately, you don't know old Turkish or any of the current Turkish dialect therefore, my advice to you is to start with simple sentences if you want to test our work. Believe me, Turkish is a very difficult language to learn structurally. For this reason, it is best to start with simple and short sentences, even if you want to get into this issue a little.

My suggestion you first start to find a short complete sentence, especially working on VMS which book "nobody read before".

As you know, when writing VMS texts the author never use any punctuation marks that indicate that the sentences are over. So, How do we know where a full sentence begins and ends? And how can we separate short sentences? My suggestion is to find a complete short sentence first in VMS writing in order not to be confused in Turkish. Because this issue is very, very important. This question should be asked to everyone who works on VMS. Where do the sentences start and where do they end? Any sentence analysis can not start without knowing this in any language. I have not met anyone before who has thought deeply about this detail. But if we can't analyze a sentence, how do we prove the claims? So we need to separate the sentences for beginning. 

It would be a more logical approach for those who do not speak Turkish to enter the subject with short sentences.

Let me help you with this. We know clearly that the VMS f-65r is written in a full sentence. Because there is only one 3-word sentence on this page. That is why it is a complete sentence.

Please see VMS f-65r:  
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

My advice to you is not to try to understand everything suddenly. Let's start with this page, which we are sure it is a short sentence. Moreover, there are only 3 words and it is simpler to discuss.

Here is the sentence in Folio 65r; OYAIK SAK APAK

Old Trk. / Modern Turkish
OYAIK   / AYAK  (foot) >  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
SAK      /  SAK  (and 'SAP') (stalk) > 
[please see the dictionary link
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
to see the section 'Güncel Türkçe Sözlük' area for in the dictionary page; 'sak(II)' / (sa:k) Abbreviations; bit. (bit = bitki = plant) sak = sap, esk. (esk = eski Türkçe = Old Turkish) ] 
APAK    /  APAK  >  (Apak means Tombul, gürbüz, sevimli in Turkish and fat, chubby, cute in English). 

See this link for APAK
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

This Sentence in old Turkish:        OYAIK SAK APAK
Same sentence in todays Turkish: AYAK SAK APAK
(and also "AYAK SAP APAK" is same think)

In this sentence, the author refers to the roots of the plant with the expression (ayak sak) mean 'the stalk foot'/'stalk foot' in English.

AYAK SAK APAK means "The stalk foot is fat (and/or) cute"

As you can see, the spelling of 2 words in this sentence has never changed in 600 years. 

In the first word (OYAIK), the first voice changed when compared with today's Anatolian Turkish. The 'O' sound changed as 'A' in time and this is the dialectal issue only. There are still sub-dialects in Uzbek Turkish that speak this word as OYAK. In addition, the second vowel in the word OYAIK fell next to each other as '-AI-'. The sound '-AI-' turned into the sound '-A-' in time. There are many examples of this in Turkish. 

As a result, there is a very minor difference between the word OYAIK in the dialect of the author became AYAK today, and these are the closest words. In 600 years, this little voice change seems incredibly clear. There is no linguist who can deny these writings in the world. In other words, I think if any Turkish linguist who can say that "this 3-word sentence is not Turkish" I can say he/she probably has a mental problem.

Thanks,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta

For more information for this sentence analysis please see this link You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(30-07-2020, 09:01 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ahmet Ardıç wrote:
"In Turkish double, triple, quadruple, and quintile repetitions of the same word (for different purpose and/or functions) are also seen (as same as in VMS). Can you please say us that same thing is found in any other European language?"

This is probably not quite what you meant, but yes, repetition like that can occur in English :
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

"Words, words, words."—Hamlet
"O horror, horror, horror."—Macbeth
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

to record record profits
to address address problems 
to refuse refuse charges
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Hi RobGea,

Thank you for this comment. Word repeats are of course can seen in many languages. Maybe it's in all languages around the world.

However, comparing any two language with their frequency and diversity of word repetitions among in texts, the difference should be scientifically viewed. In VMS, there are many repetitions on many pages and some pages have many repetitions within the same page. Please you gave me a same example in English. Please show us the similar example in any old manuscript in English. Structurally, in terms of the repeating words frequency in the text and their quantitative diversity, there is no any European language that can compete with the old and/or current Turkish.

If you want, you can create repeating words in any language. But this is not the important thing. We are comparing old languages. The important thing is to present the facts that can be compared scientifically. There are no examples similar to Turkish in terms of language.

Did you see any similar situation (same as in VMS) for this issue to compare? Is there any other text seen in any European language in from same time period? Or compare this issue with English and German (or Italian) texts of any time period. 

There are many duplicate and multiple word repeats in Turkish. That kind of the repetition was written to make the plural of a word in Old Turkish. 

In Turkish and Old-Turkish, triple, quadruple, and quintile repetitions of the same word (for different purpose and/or functions) are also seen. 

So, you can use that kind of word repetition to make any word plural in old Turkish. Which of the old European languages has such a characteristic seen? If you only think about this particular issue of diversity and frequency in this respect, you would not even want to compare with English. No way.

Best regards,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta

(30-07-2020, 10:15 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, you can use that kind of word repetition to make any word plural in old Turkish. Which of the old European languages has such a characteristic seen? If you only think about this particular issue of diversity and frequency in this respect, you would not even want to compare with English. No way.

That is indeed the kind of systematic reduplication we are looking for. But how often does it appear in a text? Do they always say "book book" for "books", or is this use exceptional?

Quote:Anyway, I can't see any German text or word in VMS. So, It is not a third language as you assume, but may be it is the text with similar (but little different) alphabet in other Turkish dialect.

The words on the bottom right on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are normal German words. Only the grammar is strange. The first line, at the very top may also be German, but some of the letters are faded, so it is difficult to know.

That does not mean there is German in the rest of the VMS, but we have to remain open-minded about the possibility.

(30-07-2020, 09:26 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am currently focusing on reading new sentences in my spare time and I am ignoring the shortcomings temporarily.

As you said "we are in no hurry". I will wait a few years and see if you develop an interest in fixing problems.

It is the small clues that make it so difficult to believe that it is Turkish.
Example:
Why is the Latin alphabet used when in the Eastern Roman Empire, Greek was normal.

German is available. In one place there is a word even in the plant. If you want to interpret the "rot" as red.
And it is not simply German, it comes from the South German language area. Dialect form.
That also makes it difficult for me to believe that they are travellers.

Why should one write a book so detailed about medicine when Arabic medicine is years ahead.

Until now I have only seen that a 1 to 1 was applied. But I like to be surprised what follows.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

(31-07-2020, 07:10 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is the small clues that make it so difficult to believe that it is Turkish.
Example:
Why is the Latin alphabet used when in the Eastern Roman Empire, Greek was normal.

Hi Peter,
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. mentioned Codex Cumanicus You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a few years ago.
From the Wikipedia page:

Quote:It consist of two parts. The first part consists of a dictionary in Latin, Persian and Cuman written in the Latin alphabet, and a column with Cuman verbs, names and pronouns with its meaning in Latin. The second part consists, Cuman-German dictionary, information about the Cuman grammar, and poems belonging to Petrarch.

The Codex uses the Latin alphabet and contains a mix of Romance languages (Latin and Italian), German, Cuman (a Turkic language) and Persian (which had a considerable influence on Turkish). I see no reason to exclude Turkish languages from the candidates. In his 2014 paper You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Stephen Bax mentioned reduplication in Turkic languages as a relevant feature. He also wrote:

Stephen Bax Wrote:the language in the VM could be borrowed in part from Indo-European languages such as Latin, and could be acting in part as an Abjad, like Arabic and other Semitic scripts, the underlying language could nevertheless be from a completely different language family again, such as Turkic.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also mentioned that Turkic languages are good candidates. She also pointed out some simple You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

Expanding on Emma's observations, Ahmet believes that the Turkish 'k' is represented by EVA:m m. He seems not to be aware that EVA:m almost exclusively appears at the end of lines: it looks like a special feature of the writing system. In my opinion, the best explanation is that it is an abbreviation symbol, but there may be other good explanations.
Anyway, EVA:m clusters at line ends while Turkish:k is an ordinary character. The idea that the two  are the same thing is obviously wrong.

I hope the attached image makes clear both the line-effect for EVA:m and the higher frequency of Turkish 'k'. 
EVA:m occurs in 2.6% of word-tokens, Turkish:k in 23.9% (I used the Zandbergen-Landini transliteration ignoring uncertain spaces and the Turkish file in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). The difference is huge, almost one order of magnitude. It's really strange that Ahmet did not notice.

Almost all (95.8%) Voynichese words which  include EVA:m have the character at word-end. Turkish 'k' has no preference for the word-ending position. Also from this side, things definitely don't work.


Turkish k words%: 23.9% word-final: 25.2%
Voynich m  words%:  2.6% word-final: 95.8%

We have seen so many people make the same mistakes that it's only natural to be put off. But Ahmet's efforts may still have the effect of stimulating more research on the Turkic-language hypothesis and maybe others with a greater interest for evidence will look at this. Not all evil comes to harm.