The Voynich Ninja

In this case for my equal-comparison-related questions (detailed in the study); 
"I don't care AI" & "You don't need to give me a lecture." kind of answers are not an answer created with a scientific approach as I believe.

Just give an example. It shouldn't be that difficult.

I don't want justification, I just want a picture.

"I don't want justification, I just want a picture" said Mr. Tentakulus. 

Dear Tentakulus,

You said "I don't want justification, I just want a picture", but this type of sentence may have value at most in a bar conversation at a drinking table, not in a scientific discussion. Please let's stop acting like children.

In the photographs you shared, the word structures you claim do not contain the quadrilateral or pentagram structures, and there are not even three identical words written side by side. It is very thought-provoking and sad that you read different words thinking they are the same word. I think any careful researcher who looks at the photographs of the texts you shared can understand this. Therefore, you should not mislead people and primarily yourself here.

Even though you have not been able to provide evidence to refute my claim, you still suggesting that I re-present the evidence in the format you want, by mistaking a photo containing similar words that look like makaroni in a non-existent IE structure.

Therefore, there is a situation like this: I showed two different structural overlaps and presented my evidence. Moreover, the artificial intelligence also wrote the same things differently and mentioned additional evidence. So, I now have two units of structural matches. But you seem to have nothing more than an unproven claim, inconsistent and repeated over and over again, with a zero-value photo that does not include quadruple and quintuple-word repetitions. I can do nothing but suggest that you turn this claim into an article, as I said, and submit it to the service of Indo-European linguistics.

Some people keep writing the same things without understanding the answers, demanding, and continuing to be exhausting. It would be more beneficial for our work to get the opinions of linguists and scientists who can evaluate the presented evidence and understand what it means.

Evidence may not always be in the format you envision or appear in the order you desire. However, there are formats of scientific evidence, and I have presented some of them here. The AI also mentioned other evidence in addition to what I discussed and shared here.

Today, hundreds of thousands of manuscripts have not been digitally scanned and published, but we learn about their existence and the details within them from linguists and historians who have worked on these texts for many years.

Nevertheless, it is possible to find the visuals and ask someone who knows the Arabic alphabet to publish these details as photos. I am not that person, but when the right researchers are found, I hope we can fulfill Mr. Tentakulus' additional request as well.

In any case, you should know that evidence is varied, and in our work, we have presented multiple systematic overlaps and hundreds of words matching dozens of sentences, and the words in question are clearly shown in well-known dictionaries. Additionally, some full pages of the VM texts have been presented at an academic level (at international linguistics and history symposiums) with evidence to linguists for criticism. So far, I have not received a single simple criticism from linguists specializing in the Old Turkish language except for congratulatory messages.

Even if we have not received a single congratulatory message addressed to us on the Voynich-ninja page, I can understand that. It is difficult to break the entrenched wrong thoughts in the human mind, and others have expressed this before me. However, I expect the criticisms you will bring to my comments and shares on this page to not exceed the limits of logic and the customary scientific level in academic practices.

Thus, criticisms should not be advanced to satisfy personal fantasies, thoughts, or expectations. Criticisms should remain within the framework of linguistics and be consistent and detached from personal expectations. I expect criticisms at this level, but I prefer you not to direct insufficiently thought-out and inconsistent or scientifically unconventional criticisms or questions to me here. Because these can be confusing for the readers and exhausting for me. Please understand this preference of mine and try to guide scientific comparisons with scientific evidence and findings, not with personal opinions, or unproven claims, or unproven illustrative visuals. While doing this, only refer to academic-level information and articles. There are many other topics here on this web page where you can share your personal opinions. If we are going to discuss our VM-Turkish study findings here, let's try to stay within the field of linguistics, please.

Regards,

Hi, Ahmet,

If I understand correctly, you are claiming that the word repetitions are exclusive Turkic grammatical feature. There are many repeated letters, syllables, words and phrases in Slovenian folk songs, which were composed before the language was even written. For example:

Mi se imamo radi, radi, radi, radi,
mi se imamo radi, radi, radi, radi,
mi se imamo radi, radi, radi, radi,
mi se imamo radi, radi, prav zares!

Zakaj se ne bi imeli radi, radi, radi,
zakaj se ne bi imeli radi, radi, radi,
zakaj se ne bi imeli radi, radi, radi,
zakaj se me bi imeli radi prav zares.

Še se bomo imeli radi, radi, radi,
še se bomo imeli radi, radi, radi,
še se bomo imeli radi, radi, radi,
še se bomo imeli radi prav zares!

Saj smo sami mladi, mladi, mladi, mladi,
saj smo sami mladi, mladi, mladi, mladi,
saj smo sami mladi, mladi, mladi, mladi,
saj smo sami mladi, mladi prav zares.

The song could be find on the internet.  I am sending you some more in the pdf forms so not to overcrowd your post.

There are not that many repetitions in the Voynich Manuscript, because of  the transliteration, because it is often difficult to differentiate the letter forms. There is one word that consistently appears in the Slovenian medieval books, which was used in liturgical rituals.[attachment=8674]

As for the other exclusive Turkic proof you are offering, regarding which letters can not appear at the beginning or at the end of the words, this is relative to the was you designed your alphabet. By using slightly different letter-designation, I can read several thousand different Slovenian words without the dictionary. The way to prove the alphabet is right is to find the old Turkish book where the text is written in Latin letters, where the letter-forms are listed along with the sounds they are used for in Turkic language, to compare that to your ATA alphabet. Researching medieval Turkish for my comparison, I have never seen 100 different letter-shapes or combination of Latin-Turkic letters. 
The other more logical proof would be to take 100 words that occur most frequently in the Voynich Manuscript and show us the words in Turkic/Latin writing. If you cannot find the copies of any of the most frequent words, how can you convince anybody that your translations of the words that occur only once are correct. 
Believe me, I know your frustration. I suppose the scholarly article (not just a letter of reference) of Turkish linguists in English would be much better defense of your theory than Chat AI.

[The song could be find on the internet.]



Dear Cvetka,

You definitely didn't get it right. I am saying that we need to compare song with song, the slogans in the stadium with the slogans in the stadium, and old manuscripts with old manuscripts. If we were to compare songs, we can find similar repetitions in almost all languages.

If possible, find an old single manuscript or written material in Slovene or any other Indo-European language and show in it the quadruple and pentagram repetitions. AI couldn't find it. If one of you finds this, he should definitely write an article because that person will point out a new finding in Indo-European linguistics in history. So this can be a good example for those who want to write their name in history.

The other general Turkish proof I am offering is regarding which letters can not appear at the beginning or at the end of the words, this is not relative to the way about the designed alphabet. This is one of the Turkish main phonetic structures.

If we are to talk about 100 different simple (single sound character) letters, they do not exist in any world language, including Voynich. But syllabic characters have been recorded both in Voynich and other languages. More than 100 fonts are present in VM texts, including syllabic characters.

I have no disappointment with people. In my work, everything is clear, clear, evidence-based and concrete. With my demonstration of structural overlaps found only in Turkish and Voynich texts, the candidacy of other languages has completely collapsed. My disappointment is that some people have difficulty understanding this simple and well-established finding. But that's not my problem, of course. A researcher who does not know how to evaluate the evidence cannot come to any conclusion anyway.

I wish you success in your work on VM texts. From now on, do not take a break from your VM-studies. You should definitely continue this work uninterruptedly in your lifetime, and maybe you will even want to pass on your work to your grandchildren, and they may want to continue searching for Indo-European languages in VM texts.


Thanks

Would you mind translating three lines of Voynich, for a new page, with letter by letter mapping and translation of each word?

(10-06-2024, 07:52 PM)Pardis Motiee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Would you mind translating three lines of Voynich, for a new page, with letter by letter mapping and translation of each word?

I would also be interested to see this. It would help the discussion a lot.

@Cvetka
I wouldn't worry about that.
At the end it is 4th year learning material.

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Dear Pardis Motiee,
Dear Koen G,

I already translated 11 lines of Voynich, which is the page 33v. We also wrote an article on this subject, and our article was presented at a symposium where international Turkology expert linguists constituted the scientific committee and was published in the symposium booklet.
You can read the translation of this full page in this article:
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After the article was published, we received congratulatory messages from many Old-Turkic language experts. To date, no linguist Turkologist has share a single criticism of our article. We also identified more than 100 complete sentences and more than 1000 words and over 110 drawing word matches. We have taken a break from translations for a long time due to our current works, but I will continue when I have free time.

Many full-page translations are left incomplete because of one or two words in a line. In addition to the fact that these words are written in an abbreviated script, I also think that words and names from European languages (like probably old Italian or Greek) are used in Turkish sentences. For this reason, a faster translation will still be a collective work and many participating researchers may be needed. The main problem of Turkologists is that they do not have information about the European languages of 600 years ago. For this reason, I expect help in this detail from this group and the researchers who follow the comments here. Of course, in order for this assistance to begin, it would be much more beneficial if it was widely understood that the VM content is mainly in Turkish.

Thanks,

Dear Tentakulus,
Dear Cvetka,

We can compare words produced for humorous purposes or in the form of nursery rhymes with Turkish nursery rhymes, and I'm sure I can find many more word repetitions. But what's the point of doing this? If you want to compare Apples with Apples, find an Indo-European medieval manuscript and show that it contains quadruple and quintuple word repetitions. Even if we assume that you have done this, it is necessary to compare how many of them are found in every 100 words (in what percentage), and you probably
will still have difficulty in proving that a special case that does not exist in the old Indo-European spelling is used frequently.

If possible, please find such an old manuscript, so that I can see the material that can compare VM and Turkish with the manuscript you found, in terms of the frequency of use of these types of words. As I said, if you make this discovery, be sure that you will make a contribution to Indo-European linguistics. But be careful, some Italian manuscripts contain Italian/Latin translations of Old Turkish words and sentences. So, if you find such a structure in an Indo-European manuscript, you should first try to understand whether it comes from Turkish.

Thanks,