The Voynich Ninja

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You shouldn't have cut the sentences apart. Or you should have inserted the whole sentence as a pattern.
Now it looks as if you have put the sentence together yourself as you need it. Which you can also see.
How am I supposed to understand this as a translation?

[quote="Aga Tentakulus" pid='60037' dateline='1718107799']

Dear Aga Tentakulus,

First and foremost, I would like to thank you for trying to understand the transcription I made for a sentence on this voynich.ninja page and for being the first person to ask a question about this matter.

I certainly did not cut off the sentences from anywhere. As you know, our author does not use period marks at the end of sentences, but most often each line is a separate sentence. However, in some cases, the sentence continues on the second line. For example, the continuation of the 10th line on page 33v can be seen on the 11th line. So how do we understand where the sentences end? In Turkish, the position of the subject and predicate within the sentence indicates where the sentence ends. In most dialects of the Turkish language, the predicate is at the end of the sentence. However, this rule is broken in poetic/literary writing styles and some dialects. For instance, this is not the case in Gagauz-Turkish.

The author seems to have used literary language in a poetic rhyme form on many pages here, and she/he also uses inverted sentences so as not to disrupt the integrity of the sentence. However, all these structures are in perfect harmony with the nature of Turkish as expected.

In the image you shared, the first line immediately following the original image line (the section starting with "Türeşkoşum") is the transcription line corresponding to the original letters in the Latin alphabet. In this line and the following line, the "/" (division) sign separates different pronunciations of the word. For example, as OLAR/ÖLER. You may remember from my previous posts that there is a vowel harmony rule in Turkish. Accordingly, O, A, U, I vowels are one group, and Ö, E, Ü, İ vowels are another group. These two groups never mix within a word.

Such a mix is not common, and it can seen in some dialects, minority dialects, and words that have passed from Arabic and Persian into Turkish. Therefore, the word we are giving as an example can never be OLER or ÖLAR. For instance, the word OLER disrupts the phonetic harmony of Turkish with the vowels O and E. Therefore, this word only has two forms of writing. Sometimes, and usually in words of 2 or 3 letters with only one vowel inside the word, there can be three different readings of the word. But let me say that all of these have corresponding meanings in Turkish. Just as the word OLAR (becomes) and the word ÖLER (dies) have meanings in Turkish.

Here, the VM author has set up so many different word plays that he has chosen each word in detail and with a plan. Because, we can see that the meaning of the sentence changes with the combinations of differently read words within the sentence, but the logical integrity and meaning of the sentence's integrity do not break.

Here, our author writes the texts to a special reader whom she/he addresses as "my pasha." The person the author addresses as "my pasha" is most likely Fatih Sultan Mehmet himself. Because, in a sentence on the map page, she/he conveys the message that a woman in a fortress kissed the armpit of the kaftan worn by "the pasha," which means offering verbal respect and allegiance to the sultan. Additionally, "kaftan" is the name of a special garment that is mostly worn by the sultan.

Anyway, to not stray too far from your questions, I will return to your question. I do not bring sentences together or divide them as I wish. Even without punctuation, it is understood where the sentence starts and ends when reading, and I read by maintaining the same word order. Also, due to the different readings of words, I write how these will change the meaning of the sentence in the explanations section. If you notice, I almost find and show every word in current and old Turkish dictionaries. Linguists working in Turkology will probably claim for many years to come that the different forms of sentences due to these types of word plays by the author should be correct. But in my opinion, the author definitely did this consciously and must have wanted to show his intelligence to the sultan (since he is a special reader) in this way.

You can translate my related article into any language you want using artificial intelligence and examine it.

Remember that this alphabet was created for a special purpose. Time by time, the author used the writing advantages provided by this special alphabet and performed a narrative as powerful as two separate sentences with one sentence without breaking away from the narrative content valid for the topic he described by playing with words.

So I'm not selectively taking words, but I'm indicating all the alternative reading forms, and I'm indicating all accordingly, the different forms of sentences.

This is quite a special book in Turkish, and I suppose the author must have thought and designed each sentence for minutes, sometimes hours, and then constructed it.

So, much so that the first letter of each line in the content is also coded from top to bottom.

I can engage in discussions with experts in the Old Turkish language who review my article about the dialect of the author and which sentence will be read with which meaning by choosing which words, and these are already happening. However, we are not having a discussion about whether the VM content is Turkish or not. Every Turkologist who examines the VM content with our ATA transcription can already see that the content is Turkish.

Remember that there are still controversial translated sections among linguists in Shakespeare’s texts, which are about 400 years old. Although linguistics still debates different forms of transcription for almost every ancient inscription, they have been able to identify the language in the content. We not only defined the language in the VM content, but we believe that we made the most accurate translations possible, and we can discuss this at an academic level.

Thanks,

(06-06-2024, 07:07 AM)Rustandi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you ahmed for your reply. But what i asked was not the translation word, i need the voynich words such as example below which i believe appear only once in the manuscript. So, If you have the list of the voynich words that appear once or twice in the manuscript, would you be able to share with us (especially me ) here? 

Thank you.

Hello Rustandi, I have a question, so if you can, please answer me!
Are there repetitions and where of the following word?
It is from Q2f14v, row 6, last word on the row.
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 The last letter  of the word is not encountered so frequently, so me thinks it is some sign and does not belong to the word. What do you think about it?

Also :
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The third row last word.

To BessAgritianin,

As i mentioned here before, i don't have the tools to check every single word exist in the manuscript. That is why i asked Ahmed for help here. So, i don't know whether the word has any repetition or not.

For the second word, i think it has two words. If you look at my translation on the first page of VM about G. Aurispa, you can see the translation word " Glossa " has the same horizontal line that connect the letter "B" And "L". So, in my opinion the first word might be " Subluas ".

Thank you.

@Rustandi
Maybe you don't know it. Otherwise try this programme.
I have entered ‘8g’ once as a pattern. You'll find a lot there.

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It would be much simpler to handle one of the transliterations of the manuscript in Latin letters, available on the internet, than the images.

[quote="BessAgritianin" pid='60045' dateline='1718167160']
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Dear friends,

I would like to say that we can read most of the words you speculate about by sharing images with each other here time by time. However, thinking that the word readings we make may lead to speculations, I usually examine the meaning of these words in the sentence. So to explain a word, I often have to go through a full sentence, and that takes quite a long time. For example, it took me approximately 1 year to translate page 33v, which consists of 11 lines, and write the article about it. If I had proceeded at the same pace and, for example, all pages had almost the same or similar number of words and sentences, it would have taken me approximately 240 years to translate this book of approximately 240 pages into today's language. Of course, the reason for this is that three people in my family (myself and my two sons) make an effort to do the transcription & translation work that should be done by researchers with many different disciplines and language knowledge, in their spare time. (I hope that when there is wide awareness that the content is in Turkish, there will be more researchers who can support us in the future.)

When you think that you are asking a simple question here, behind these questions that seem simple to you, there is usually an article-sized amount of information compilation and research involved. This is usually why my quick explanations may mislead Turkologist linguists who read this later about my level of knowledge. I generally favor sharing less speculation and more evidence in various forms. For this reason, explaining the meaning of any sentence in the text without fully examining it may cause controversy. That's why I don't do this very often. But there may be exceptions from time to time. Because if a word has 2 close phonetic forms and both of them have equivalents in Turkish, I do not think there is any harm in explaining them.

Now, the alphabet transcription of one of the words you pointed out in your previous comment and the explanation below about what it might mean (together with its before word) may be of interest to some of you. The reason why I make such explanations is to state that we have examined the words in the texts with both their roots and word suffixes.

Also, the last written sign of one of the words here is a syllabic character, and this gives the NN / NiN sound. The writer could have written these letters side by side and as a base/single sound sign (by using the letters N two times side by side), but here the writer seems to have used (as her/his preference) to write them on one top of other (as turning them into syllabic characters by placing two letters N on top of each other).

In this/same way, we can see a large number of syllabic characters throughout 240 pages. You do not have the chance to read all syllabic characters with EVA transcription variants or transcription variants made to date for VM.

Here, throughout 240 pages, there are approximately 24 simple sound characters and approximately 146 to 156 syllables and tamgas characters and alphabet-sound images where numerical images are used with their sound value. You can read all of these only by using the ATA alphabet transcription, and there is not a single academician or linguist who has done something similar in the VM reading history. At the same time, I have not seen a single transcription table (except for speculative phonetics or queries for pointing out some letters) criticizing EVA variations or other transcriptions of VM texts at an academic level by pointing out this deficiency for all these syllabic characters.

Since this special syllable sign is used in this particular word, I can share the following information about these words to give more info about how the syllable signs should be read:
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Here, the -i / -ü suffix at the end of the word ÇEÇİL-İ / ÇEÇİL-Ü written by the Author is the word suffix equivalent to "the" in English. (I have previously explained how this is explained in linguistics by pointing to multiple sources and evidence. For this reason, I will not write about the same details again.)

Here, the word ÇEÇİL is the name of a type of cheese with long and thin fibers in the form of hair strands. This word also means "cheese fibers". 

[The author wrote this on the page where he drew a sesame flower. We have already mentioned that the author wrote the word sesame (SUSAM) on the same page. I can express it more clearly when I analyze the whole sentence, but here the author either likens a certain part of the flower to a fringed hair structure or refers to the use of sesame seeds with chechil (çeçil) cheese. (As I said, I can say this more clearly when I analyze the whole page or these sentences.)]

The English translation of the words ÇEÇİLÜ SAÇISUNIN (ÇEÇİL HAIR) written by the author means "the hair-strands of the Cheçil-cheese". Or it may mean "chechil hair-fibers".

Here, another phonetic value similar to the word ÇÇİLÜ (ÇEÇİLÜ) is the word "ÇEÇLİ". The word root here is ÇEÇ. This root word has different meanings in the dictionary. The suffixes LU/LÜ/LI/Lİ at the end of the word give the meaning of "in" or "with it". (As I said before, I can say this more clearly when I analyze the whole page or these sentences.)

For LU/LÜ/LI/Lİ suffixes, see:
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Note about these suffixes:
> The suffixes "-lı, -li, -lu, lü" in Turkish originate from the process of converting nouns to adjectives to indicate the state or quality of a noun. These suffixes are known as "sıfat eki" (adjective suffix).
> Certainly! The suffixes -lı, -li, -lu, -lü in Turkish serve various functions and have diverse roles in the language.

A speaker or reader who thinks in Turkish or knows Turkish well can instantly understand to which word this suffix is added and in what semantic context this word and suffix change in the sentence, and knows which of the following functions it is used for.

The same applies to the sense in which words are spelled the same but read differently, and words that are written the same but have different meanings too. It should be perceived naturally by the reader too. For this reason, the meaning of the word in the sentence will give us information in which sense it is used.

I explain these details because, even if you read a word in the same way on different pages and sentences, this does not mean that this word will have the same meaning in every sentence in which it is written.

For this reason, before you start asking questions such as whether these words are written here or on such and such a page, I would like you to know that each sentence should be analyzed separately and the meaning of the words should be shown here.

Now the other functions of this word-suffix "-lı, -li, -lu, lü" are:
(Here is a list of their functions translated into English)
Possession/Affiliation:
Forms adjectives indicating possession or affiliation with a noun.
Derivation:
Creates new words from existing ones by attaching these suffixes to the roots.
Nationality:
Forms adjectives or nouns indicating nationality or ethnic identity.
Related to a Place:
Indicates association with a specific location.
Quality/Characteristic:
Conveys a particular quality or characteristic of the noun.
Belonging:
Implies ownership or belonging to a specific group or category.
Association:
Indicates a relationship or connection with the base noun.
Descriptive Function:
Adds a descriptive element to nouns or pronouns, specifying a particular attribute.
Demonstrative Relationship:
Establishes a demonstrative relationship with the noun it attaches to.
Abstract Relations:
Represents abstract relationships such as similarity, partnership, or belonging. 
These suffixes play a crucial role in forming a wide range of words in Turkish, adding depth and specificity to the language.


For the word ÇEÇ, see:
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&
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For the word ÇEÇİL, see:
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It is written on the sixth page of this article that the words SAÇININ and SAÇISININ mean the same thing, you can see it from there (I also included the part of this page in the image I shared here):
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You can see the Google Translate translation page shared You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

In the image below, you can see ÇEÇİL cheese and its hair-like stringy/fibrous structure. It is widely known that this cheese (and some other cheeses) is eaten mixed with sesame or black cumin in Anatolia and Turkish-speaking regions, and this way of eating is a part of the food culture of certain regions.
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Note: I obtained this image from the link below. However, I have no financial relationship or dealings with the companies that sell this cheese.
But I like this cheese. It is among my favorite cheeses. It becomes more delicious when you mix this cheese with black cumin and sesame seeds. I'm not surprised that the author mentions this on the page where he draws the sesame plant.

The source of this ÇEÇİL photo: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Adding another note to one of my previous comment where I shared information about Artificial Intelligence would be useful.
You can see my previous comment on this page:
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The part I want to add is:
Before Cahit Arf, A. Turing wrote an article on a similar subject but with different content in 1950. 
See: A. M. TURING, I.—COMPUTING MACHINERY AND INTELLIGENCE, Mind, Volume LIX, Issue 236, October 1950, Pages 433–460, 
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[Note 1: Unfortunately, A. Turing did not live very long. It can be said that he fell into a psychological depression due to the British Government's efforts to castrate him because of his homosexual preferences and in a sense, he died unable to overcome the devastating effects of this. Alan Turing was a brilliant mathematician and computer scientist. He was also gay, and this was considered a crime in the UK at the time. Turing was prosecuted and sentenced to chemical castration, which he successfully resisted. Despite his persecution, Turing's legacy lives on as a pioneer of modern computing logic and a champion of LGBTQ+ rights. I would like to remember him with respect on all these occasions.

Note2: Europeans' different approaches to different aspects of human rights reminded me of a memory. I went to the British Library in London in 2019 as part of my research on VM. Here I determined that the questions asked to create this library's membership card were racist. It is very sad that England, which is trying to teach civilization lessons to countries it sees as inferior, can still take such approaches in this century.]

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(13-06-2024, 07:58 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[Note 1: Unfortunately, A. Turing did not live very long. It can be said that he fell into a psychological depression due to the British Government's efforts to castrate him because of his homosexual preferences and in a sense, he died unable to overcome the devastating effects of this. Alan Turing was a brilliant mathematician and computer scientist. He was also gay, and this was considered a crime in the UK at the time. Turing was prosecuted and sentenced to chemical castration, which he successfully resisted. Despite his persecution, Turing's legacy lives on as a pioneer of modern computing logic and a champion of LGBTQ+ rights. I would like to remember him with respect on all these occasions.

Note2: Europeans' different approaches to different aspects of human rights reminded me of a memory. I went to the British Library in London in 2019 as part of my research on VM. Here I determined that the questions asked to create this library's membership card were racist. It is very sad that England, which is trying to teach civilization lessons to countries it sees as inferior, can still take such approaches in this century.]

I am sad to say that this is not the first time I see you take unnecessary potshots at Europe or western civilization.
There is a time and place for everything, and I don't see what this has to do with the topic.

I think we all can agree here that AI is pretty nice. But the way you use AI to promote your theory is not scientific.
ChatGPT is a fun tool to play around with, but that's pretty much it. I think this has been demonstrated pretty well in the other thread about ChatGPT.

(13-06-2024, 07:58 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I went to the British Library in London in 2019 as part of my research on VM.

Ahmet, if you kept this memory for several years, the situation probably did not correspond to your worldview. But it's a problem of all humans: we discover sooner or later that the world is not as we imagined it in our childhood.
Coming back to our topic, I hope that the research on the manuscript will allow us all to put our ideas in order, to be off-topic as little as possible.