The Voynich Ninja

(08-05-2022, 12:19 AM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi, Ahmet,  how do you know the picture is a peach or plum tree? Also, you keep referring to OY and AY (EVA-ot) as if the author of the VM gave you permission to change all the letters around. Since you challenged me last time to show you the language where this syllable would be used so frequently as in the Turkic language, I did some checking and except for the few words where AY is translated as month or a moon, I could not find any words starting with AY in any Turkish text. Did you know that there are about 2500 words in the VM that start with ATA-OY or EVA-OT?  In the first 50 pages, where there is no picture of the moon, the root AY occurs over 200 times, as a free standing word, as a prefix, and as part of the other word. Do you want to convince us that all those words relate to the 'moon' or 'month'? 
Explaining this is very important, since your entire translation alphabet is based on this. It should be easy: translate at least those words that you listed in your table. And show us some Turkish text where this syllable appears, not as an ancient Etruscan word discussed in the works of the Turkish scholars, but in the text written in Latin letters in Turkish Language.

I don't know if it's the plum or the peach in the drawing. I don't know if the author could draw like a realist painter or not. Also, you'd better ask and learn the spelling language of this book from the author yourself. Because I spoke to her yesterday and she wouldn't let me talk about it to a few people in this group. One of them is you.


I'm kidding of course. But I wanted to answer your question only on this level because I am in a cheerful mood today.

Out of nearly 100 drawing word matches, this is just one of them. From your comment, I understood that you did not understand anything about inter-dialect sound change events. It would be better if you ask this to linguists. Because here I explained before that, the old word OY in the dialect of the author has turned into the form of AY phonetically today. Moreover, even today, in some Turkish dialects, there are those who pronounce the word OY instead of AY. I wrote this in my previous comments. I guess you may not like to read my long comments, especially if they are written in bad English.

If you are looking for information about Turkish, I always recommend that you try to find and use real dictionaries. Very few of the online dictionaries are reliable and do not try to study Turkish with google translater if possible. Because the result will often be misleading.

I understand from your comment that your inference that my Turkish translation alphabet is based on the word AY is wrong and that you have understood almost nothing about what we have written about old and todays Turkish. If you can, please get a real Turkish dictionary and see dictionaries that start with the sound AY, in the content. Do the same for English. In other words, find dictionaries that start with the sound AY- in the English dictionary. Simply count both. Then numerically compare the resulting total number with words starting with AY- in the VM. When you do this, the result will give you an idea.

Moreover, in some dialects of Turkish, compound words may change their order. This situation does not change the meaning of some names and pronouns. For example, ORAK+ÇAĞI or ÇAĞI+ORAK can be written and both will mean JULY.

Soon (possibly within this year), a Turkologist (as a linguist doing academic studies in the field of old Turkish) professor, who will write about VM Turkish content in an academic article. (He changed the sound value of only a few letters in the transcription I made and he said that more and more accurate readings could be made. In the current situation, we are comparing our sentence readings with him, and although there are some differences between us in terms of reading and interpreting the words, but he clearly understood that the VM content is in Turkish.) He is currently translating only one whole page in VM yet. When that article comes out, I will share the link and if you are interested, you can read the content yourself. 

Thanks,

(08-05-2022, 04:32 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Of course, there is no peach or its flowers in the picture.
The look doesn't even come close.
It is possible that the local name of the plant has something to do with peach (example: downy appearance), but the picture does not.

What you see in the picture is the lungwort. A classic medicinal herb.
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But to make it a little more precise, (without spots) it is Pulmonaria kerneri.
It is found in the limestone Alps (Dolomites). Which brings me right to the heart of all the other clues. Zinnen, Kronne, German......
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When you cannot read the content, you interpret the pictures by repeating what has been done for the last hundred years. You are very successful, I think there is no harm in continuing this your way for the next hundred years too. Good luck to you.

(24-04-2022, 05:04 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(22-04-2022, 09:28 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(22-04-2022, 01:22 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What does it have to do with the Voynich manuscript?

Dear Cvetka,


Only people of Etruscan times were not genetically mixed. Today, people all carry different genes. In this sense, I think that it is not possible to clearly say that someone is of a certain race or nationality by making a racial approach. It doesn't matter what nationality both the VM-author and you or I adopt for it. I approach the issue from a linguistic point of view. People from all over the world live in Canada these days. Their common language is English and/or French. Same situation here. Our author can be Chinese, German, Italian, Arab or Turkish or of any other nationality. But she/he probably be able to speak the language of the dominant culture adopted in that society.

I brought up the Etruscan issue. Because we touched on Turkish Runic signs and writing. Genetically, a dominant gene trait can still be seen in a group of people. Naturally, in which groups that feature is seen today, this information should be taken into account when looking at the past language and writing of that group of people. So, considering that the Etruscan language may have a Turkish language connection, there is little point in trying to match Etruscan writings with the language of the indigenous people of an island in the Pacific.

There is no inconsistency in our theory. Everything is just where it should be. We explain the points where you say there are inconsistencies. In doing so, we present the evidence. If there are places that are still seen as inconsistent, we recommend that you ask about the places that are seen as inconsistent in specific details and not to bring up the topics in general titles so that we can proceed more clearly. Now I have given an example of reading a line on this page. Can you see any inconsistent about this reading example?

As for the Etruscan RASENI issue. Did any linguists ever occur that the word read as RASENI might be a compound word that should be read as "ARAS+ENİ"? There are other reading suggestions as well. However, not all of them will be understood without knowing Turkish.

ARAS (name of a geographic region): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

ENİ (sister): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

ARASENI can mean a name given to itself by a group of people. For example, "ENI (younger sister) from ARAS region". Of course, if there are linguists who read the sign R that should be read in the form "AR" or "ER", they would of course draw a completely different conclusion. 

(Another possibility here is that the word ENİ may have been used in the sense of İNME/İNİ (LANDING), that is, to come. In this case, the word is understood as COMING / LANDING FROM THE ARAS REGION.)

Actually, it's not about this RASENI or other reading recommendation anyway. You are repeating the information you have been taught and you have no idea what is written and what evidence is presented on the same topics in our geography. We, on the other hand, think that we can make clearer inferences by reading all the different explanations. Pretty much the same is true in the case of the Voynich manuscript. To this day EVA etc. you did multiple transcriptions and often saw almost everything in the content related to European culture. We show you the different possibilities. There's no point in being bothered by it.

Now I will try to answer your questions.

1. The information you have obtained from the internet about Tamga symbols is incomplete. You can learn about tamgas and how they evolved into syllabic writings and how alphabet characters were born from syllable writing signs by reading the resources I shared in my previous comments. I also write my own conclusions on these issues.

Tamga signs are clearly present in ATA transcription. The author also used them between texts with their phonetic values. However, these signs appear in several places throughout the entire manuscript, and the presence or absence of a few words read with them does not affect the result. I don't make up Tamga signs myself to make my reading job easier. If doing so will make it easier to read, here you go, give the phonetic values you want to the sign you want creatively in the language you want and read it. As I said, these signs are in the VM content.

Also, we did not use all of the phonetic variations we showed against certain signs in both syllabic and Tamga transcription. Probably most of these will be eliminated as the reading work progresses. As I have stated many times, we are talking about an unfinished and ongoing work. We proceeded by trial and error in transcription by reducing all sound possibilities back from the Whole. So we do the hard thing and keep doing it. Please look again at the transcription table in our video we published on Youtube in 2018. We showed more sound values against the same sign there. But if you look at the table on our website today, you'll see that the phonetic equivalents of the signs have been drastically reduced. This is related to the method we follow in our work. However, although we reduced the sound equivalents in the tables we published in 2018 by at least half in 2022, we read twice as many sentences and words.

2. Eight (8) is written as "SEKİZ" in Turkish. The first sound of this is the S sound. 4 is written as "DÖRT" in Turkish. The first sound of this is the D sound. The same is true for all numbers from 1 to 9. The author has used all of these to write with sound value.

3. We have not yet read any prefixes in the Voynich manuscript. The claim that there are prefixes in the texts is based entirely on anagram similes with useless transcriptions. Scientifically, no consistent and repetitive evidence of this claim has been demonstrated. What you and others think of as a prefix consists of parts of words and root words that the author wrote by dividing. In fact, these can be written largely without adjoining any word. That is, the prefixes are not written separately because there is no point in writing the prefixes separately. Voynich author, on the other hand, was able to write what you call prefixes as a stand-alone word. Moreover, even on a single page, it can be seen photographically that very different suffixes are brought to the same root word and new words are produced in these forms. We wrote about this in detail in our book.

Let's show examples from a page and please think about it from that perspective. The word OY is the word AY in today's Turkey Turkish. Now here is a table. There word root is this word. This word can be written on its own. It can also be written on the same page with the root AY- and its additional variations. Now please show us a text in any Indo-European language in Europe where this happens with the same frequency. I could not find a similar example in old or new texts. For example, look at the words that start with the sound AY- or the word, how many different words will you find in the dictionary? In Turkish, they exist in the same frequency and form on the page read.



The word OY (month & moon) can also be written in root case. Because it is a root word. If it were a prefix, it would also not be written alone without any word-suffix or component.

This is a good example to show the variety of word components that begin with the same root and are quoted from a single page.

At the same time, the number of examples of adding the same suffixes to different roots is many throughout the writing.

Examples that are similar to these examples and the abundance of examples where the same root and same word-affixes can be observed, as here, will not be seen in the same number and frequency in an Indo-European language, for example.

The variety of word-suffix affixes, which is already seen in less number in Indo-European languages, can be clearly observed.

In the image, the word in the upper left corner is OY and OIY. This word is mostly pronounced as AY in Anatolia today, but still lives in the form of OY in different Turkic dialects.

Different derivative words seen adjacent to this root-word and quoted from the same page are the other words starting with the same root on this calendar page.

4. All of the Turcologists we worked with clearly saw and understood that many Turkish words and complete sentences were read on all pages and all lines in the book. When I give the transcript, they read it themselves, and we don't direct it. Here, it will be necessary to work on the words written by abbreviation and division, but when these are understood, a translation of the entire work into today's language can be obtained with the words that can already be read in every sentence. Getting to this stage is a teamwork job. That's why we can get faster results if we get support.

Already for a hundred years, inconsistent comments were made because the texts could not be read. Most of these comments did not go beyond personal views and interpreting the illustrations in the content. Wait for the explanations of linguists who are experts in the Turkish language. Among the linguists who tried to read the Voynich manuscript with our ATA transcription, no one could say that the content was not Turkish. It won't. If it does, it may result in that person being ridiculed in the academic environment in the future, and I don't think anyone will take such a risk. Linguists have not been able to pinpoint the author's dialect. There are sharp differences of opinion on this issue. I don't think they'll make a statement until they clear this up. They are currently trying to understand the unknown. That's why they're still silent. But this will not always be the case.

We did not name the plant drawn on page 33v as a sunflower. However, we offered one of our multiple reading suggestions for the article in the content. The characteristics written there indicate that it may be a sunflower or a plant similar to a sunflower. However, the last word on this issue should be given by botanists who will work with linguists. The issue of when the sunflower came to Europe and in which way is not yet certain.

5. I have been saying and writing for a long time that the texts are written by more than one person. I don't remember when I wrote it for the first time, but in 2018 I officially registered the first version of our book in "Azerbaijan State body (the state body that protects the property rights of authors)". I already say there and in our various articles and emails and speeches/presentations that there has been more than one person's writing in the content since 2018. At first, I thought there were 3 hands on this subject and I wrote. I said that as the work progressed, there could be 4 or 5 hands. If you want to know the latest situation, I definitely think that there are 6 to 8 different people's writings right now.

Ms. Lisa Davis offered advice on how to write our article and devoted some of her time to helping us. I respect her.

I understood what you were implying and if I understood correctly, it is very disturbing and I did not like it.

We think that at least one person in the time of the book-seller Voynich (probably between 1909 and 1912) interfered with writing using a different alphabet and with a different pen. As we mentioned before, this person could probably be Voynich himself.

But in addition to this, there is another hand in writing. This could be someone like the librarian who received the manuscript during the period of the author's life in the Ottoman palace, or a high-level manager or commander. This person may be someone waiting to read the coded sections in the writing or another officer of the palace. Probably, this person's handwriting (folio 116v) is also the notes on the back page, and we can say that these notes added to the writing by just making notes on the back page, right after the author, around 1453.

Ms. Lisa Fagin Davis is probably someone who worked on these issues even before we were aware of the Voynich manuscript. Since she examined this subject in this detail at an academic level, not an amateur way like us, she probably determine how many different hands were in VM, and those numbers should be more accurate.


If we ignore the additions that we think were made by Voynich to this work and the additions made with different alphabets on the last page. As another possibility, we estimate in 2022 that there may be at least 6, at most 8 different hands on other pages of the book and throughout this work. Of course, these estimations are based on our amateurish reviews only. 

Despite all this, we assume that there is only one main author who designs how the main texts will be written. A single author must have decided what to write in the main texts, if we exclude the appendices on the front and back pages and the touches made by Voynich.

The texts written by this main author, probably have been copying by other hands.

Moreover, the people who rewrote the second copy by looking at the first one , may be have been chosen from those who could not read the first texts they justified. All this is possible.

Please see this:  

For example, the number 3 appears throughout the writing in different forms. The 3 numbers that we have quoted here in the picture, are 6 from the left, probably a syllable character, and the 7th from the left should probably have been added as a tamga sign. If we remove these two, we are left with six different 3 number formats. Considering the additions that we think were made by Voynich and the additions on the last page (in folio 116v), it can be said that 8 different hands touched to this VM writing. But, as I said, we may actually be wrong in the possibilities we put forward here. Presumably, experts like Lisa Fagin Davis explained them more accurately and scientifically, and they must have identified the issue before we did.

I have already explained why we use the ATA manuscript name. I will continue to use it this way. You can find the reason in my previous explanations.

Kind regards

A. Ardıç

(08-05-2022, 09:46 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(08-05-2022, 12:19 AM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi, Ahmet,  how do you know the picture is a peach or plum tree? Also, you keep referring to OY and AY (EVA-ot) as if the author of the VM gave you permission to change all the letters around. Since you challenged me last time to show you the language where this syllable would be used so frequently as in the Turkic language, I did some checking and except for the few words where AY is translated as month or a moon, I could not find any words starting with AY in any Turkish text. Did you know that there are about 2500 words in the VM that start with ATA-OY or EVA-OT?  In the first 50 pages, where there is no picture of the moon, the root AY occurs over 200 times, as a free standing word, as a prefix, and as part of the other word. Do you want to convince us that all those words relate to the 'moon' or 'month'? 
Explaining this is very important, since your entire translation alphabet is based on this. It should be easy: translate at least those words that you listed in your table. And show us some Turkish text where this syllable appears, not as an ancient Etruscan word discussed in the works of the Turkish scholars, but in the text written in Latin letters in Turkish Language.

I don't know if it's the plum or the peach in the drawing. I don't know if the author could draw like a realist painter or not. Also, you'd better ask and learn the spelling language of this book from the author yourself. Because I spoke to her yesterday and she wouldn't let me talk about it to a few people in this group. One of them is you.


I'm kidding of course. But I wanted to answer your question only on this level because I am in a cheerful mood today.

Out of nearly 100 drawing word matches, this is just one of them. From your comment, I understood that you did not understand anything about inter-dialect sound change events. It would be better if you ask this to linguists. Because here I explained before that, the old word OY in the dialect of the author has turned into the form of AY phonetically today. Moreover, even today, in some Turkish dialects, there are those who pronounce the word OY instead of AY. I wrote this in my previous comments. I guess you may not like to read my long comments, especially if they are written in bad English.

If you are looking for information about Turkish, I always recommend that you try to find and use real dictionaries. Very few of the online dictionaries are reliable and do not try to study Turkish with google translater if possible. Because the result will often be misleading.

I understand from your comment that your inference that my Turkish translation alphabet is based on the word AY is wrong and that you have understood almost nothing about what we have written about old and todays Turkish. If you can, please get a real Turkish dictionary and see dictionaries that start with the sound AY, in the content. Do the same for English. In other words, find dictionaries that start with the sound AY- in the English dictionary. Simply count both. Then numerically compare the resulting total number with words starting with AY- in the VM. When you do this, the result will give you an idea.

Moreover, in some dialects of Turkish, compound words may change their order. This situation does not change the meaning of some names and pronouns. For example, ORAK+ÇAĞI or ÇAĞI+ORAK can be written and both will mean JULY.

Soon (possibly within this year), a Turkologist (as a linguist doing academic studies in the field of old Turkish) professor, who will write about VM Turkish content in an academic article. (He changed the sound value of only a few letters in the transcription I made and he said that more and more accurate readings could be made. In the current situation, we are comparing our sentence readings with him, and although there are some differences between us in terms of reading and interpreting the words, but he clearly understood that the VM content is in Turkish.) He is currently translating only one whole page in VM yet. When that article comes out, I will share the link and if you are interested, you can read the content yourself. 

Thanks,

Ahmet, you did not answer my question about 2500 words that start with AY. Are they all related to the moon and the month? It does not matter if you transliterate the word as  AY or OY, or if EVA translates it as OT, what I am interested is why there is so many words starting with root which means MOON or MONTH and why there is so hard to find the words starting with this same root in other Turkish texts. I am surprised that the Turkish linguists have not noticed this. 
In my former line of work as an editor of the Slovenian newspaper, I always checked the articles submitted for publishing for grammar and for facts. I hope they will have an explanation for all inconsistencies and all miss-identified pictures in your work. 




As a matter of fact, I did use a good 150 years old Turkish grammar book that also contains dictionary.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Arthur Lumley Davids  A Grammar of the Turkish Language, printed in 1833.[attachment=6499][attachment=6501].  
It sounds strange that the author of the VM would rearrange the Latin alphabet for the Turkish language, since it is clear from the attached picture which Latin letters Europeans were using for the Turkish sounds.
I believe the Turkish language in that book would be much closer to the language used in the VM than the 2000 years old words, even though they still live in Turkish language. Besides, it has a long list the names of plants and trees.
As I mentioned before, it would not surprise me if there were Turkish words in the VM, because there was a strong Slavic community in Turkey. I just read in an article that there were over two million people in Turkey of Slavic origin. 
Besides that, the linguistic connection goes ever further back, to the ancient Veneti, than to the Galatia where the language similar as in European Gallias was spoken (as reported by St. Jerome in the 5th century), and later when a Slavic community was established in Tessaloniki. I am particularly interested in this linguistic connection, not so much because of the VM, as I am because of the research I am doing into Slovenian language. Slovenian language shows a lot of similarity with Turkish as far as sound changes, vowel harmony and different suffixes for inflections, but unlike Turkish and Hungarian, Slovenian language is fusional and contains many different prefixes.

@Ahmet
It has nothing to do with luck. The insight lies in the thoroughness of the research.
Close observation of the individual images and their meaning is only the beginning. It is like fractions. Find the same denominator. Now you slowly get the picture.
It is the small things that help in this case.
The more certain I can be about the meaning of a picture, the more certain I can be about the meaning of the text.

You have no explanation why you think you recognise the text as Turkish. You refer to 3000 years of history and migration.
You have no background, you are rolling the dice. Now luck is involved.
Ergo, good luck.

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Dear Cvetka,

Have you seen 2500 words that start with the syllable AY- (word root) in Slovenian or English or any Indo-European language group? Or, if you think that the syllable AY is a prefix, have you seen words that start with the syllable AY_ as prefixes to 2500 different words in any of the past and present books in the world in European languages? 


1- The  examined part of the content of the book is in Turkish, and we have examined only 10% of this VM-book in detail yet. We only looked at the rest of the book in a read-across format and superficially without going into detail. I've written this many times before. If this is the case, we should not be surprised if there are words in other languages in the work. Does this mean anything to you? So if you want to search for something in Slovenian that you can't find with the EVA table, you should try ATA transcription.

2- There was no proven reading or overlap between EVA and Voynich pages. So EVA alphabet transcription didn't work and it won't work in the future. This includes for all variations of EVA.

3- All the reading suggestions made up to now (except ours -mostly-) are in the form of anagrams and made-up analogies. There is not a single clear line reading made using EVA that can be considered proven according to the criteria of linguistics. However, hundreds of researchers still trying to use EVA, and still do not perceive this reality.

4- The works could not go beyond just interpreting the drawings/pictures. And the comments on the images in the VM were made by ignoring other cultures. That is, they have progressed almost exclusively from the perspective of European geography and culture. However, for the same drawings, drawing and word matching could not be suggested, except for a few anagram overlaps.

5- There is no prefix in the written language of the book. In fact, there is no clear scientific finding to prove that the sections interpreted by you as a prefix or the elements thought to be a "prefix" are prefixes. 

6- As Europeans, you wrote the history of the Voynich book only by accepting the information and the so-called historical letters put forward by the book-seller Voynich as correct. You have repeatedly written to whom this work (the book) belonged in the past. But there is not a single scientific finding or evidence to prove this story. The so-called historical letter, presented by Voynich himself, which is likely a kind of forgery itself. I have made statements in detail on this subject before.

Summary for this part: 
Almost none of the information you accept or think is true about Voynich is not true. Only the description of a castle drawing on a map page as a castle in Italy can be correct. Other than that, all are completely "baseless opinions & informations" in my opinion. Also EVA and other known transcriptions don't work & will never work to read VM pages. And There is not a single evidence of any Indo-European language in the VM-content too.

Now I will show you what you cannot find one by one, and I suggest that you try to understand without haste just by examining the information given and the sources shown.

Please get a real Turkish dictionary such as "Türkiye Türkçesi Ağızları Sözcük Varlığı, TDK yayınları" etc. I couldn't find any of the full content of these kind dictionary online, so I got many printed paper dictionaries. For example, you can at least try to get the dictionary, the link of which I have shared below. (I don't know if they ship outside of Turkey. You can probably buy second hand 2007 edition from Amazon.)

Author: Yaşar Çağbayır
Name of the dictionary : "Türkiye Türkçesinin Söz Varlığı" (Turkey Turkish Vocabulary), Ötüken Türkçe Sözlük (The Ötüken Turkish Dictionary)
Publisher: Ötüken Neşriyat - Ansiklopedi Dizisi
ISBN-13 ‏ : ‎ 978-9754376234
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In the content of this dictionary, approximately 130-thousand words written in Ottoman spelling, including the Ottoman period of Turkey Turkish, and a total of 316-thousand words from different periods of Turkish (including some Old Turkish words of well known dialects) which can be easily accessed with different readings and meanings of each word.

In the dictionaries you can find on the Internet, there are words from 1000 to 65000 words. However, these may contain most of the current Turkey Turkish words and/or the most used words today.

For example, there is a Turkish dictionary in a pdf file at this link.
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However, we can not compare this dictionaries with the dictionaries that like I referenced above. Because it is possible to find words in rich dictionaries, which are approximately 6 times more numerous than the current Turkish dictionaries you can find online, and include the forgotten old words of some dialects.

For example, if you look at the dictionary whose link I have shared, you can see words starting with the syllable AY- from page 286 to page 313. There should be approximately 450 to 500 words starting with the syllable AY-  in those pages. Moreover, when some side by side words start with the same word, you can see how the meaning expands with the second word that comes next to first one (which in the root word position it is). The same is true of the Voynich texts. In other words, if we assume that there are approximately 450 words starting with the syllable AY in a word containing 50-thousand words of a dictionary, then this means that this number can be roughly 2700 words in a dictionary with a 316-thousand word volume one.

But we remember that some words are very repetitive and they may not be different words. For example, in cases where the word used by the writer 600 years ago and written in the form of the word "OYAR / ÖYER" in their book, it also should be written separately as "o yar" (meaning "that/this - lover") and "o yer" (means "that place"), it has been a question of writing them adjacent.

But I do know that some words are repeated in large numbers for about 240 pages. There is nothing abnormal in this that cannot be explained. For example, in cases where the word used by the author 600 years ago and written in the form of the word "OYAR / ÖYER" in his book should be written separately as "o yar" (meaning that lover) and "that place", it has been a matter of writing them adjacent. In addition, when this word is written adjacent, it will be the closest word to today's "IF" word in phonetic "ÖYER (EĞER)" value in Turkish, and the most used meanings of this word;
1) if 2) whether 3) provided that 4) providing 5) providing that. 

Who would be surprised to find so many same like words like IF and WHETHER (expressing a doubt or choice between alternatives) in a book? 

There is no abnormality in this. Moreover, it is a misconception that the semantic content of the root word that starts with the syllable AY- consists of only two meanings. Now please open this link below and see page 42 in this pdf dictionary which has only 199 pages in total. There, in the explanation of the root word "ay-" in the page have been explained the meaning content of the root of this AY-. And if you understand this, you may have a chance to understand why Turkish same words have many meanings.

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So, We have not yet seen a prefix in the Voynich texts. If these were prefixes of words, they would also not have been written independently. But the word OY (AY) could also be written independently. If you write the prefixes separately, they won't make any sense.


Words that look the same in this dictionary can change or expand their meanings, depending on the meaning of the word in front of it or sometimes after it, just like in the Voynich texts. Of course, linguists who know the structure of these languages will understand better what I mean.

Thanks

(09-05-2022, 09:21 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Ahmet
It has nothing to do with luck. The insight lies in the thoroughness of the research.
Close observation of the individual images and their meaning is only the beginning. It is like fractions. Find the same denominator. Now you slowly get the picture.
It is the small things that help in this case.
The more certain I can be about the meaning of a picture, the more certain I can be about the meaning of the text.

You have no explanation why you think you recognise the text as Turkish. You refer to 3000 years of history and migration.
You have no background, you are rolling the dice. Now luck is involved.
Ergo, good luck.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

Mr. Tentakulus,

You said that; "You have no explanation why you think you recognize the text as Turkish." Please you don't be curious to read what I wrote from now on.

Because after all the findings that I have shared here for months, someone who can make up this sentence can continue to study this subject for the next hundred years with the same method he wants. Thus, you will not waste your time in this area here where I share my comments and findings. So you can continue reading the pictures with more free time.

On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. where I share some of my VM-readings & papers, I shared some of the quotes of Rumi, and please look at it, maybe it will mean something to you, and maybe you would like to go back to the beginning and re-read all my posts by examining about the Turkish related evidences  in VM. Actually, I don't think you will do that. But I thought I'd write it anyway.

(09-05-2022, 05:43 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, We have not yet seen a prefix in the Voynich texts. If these were prefixes of words, they would also not have been written independently. But the word OY (AY) could also be written independently. If you write the prefixes separately, they won't make any sense.

I like to thank you for your effort to try to defend your theory against my challenge. I know it is frustrating, but this will prepare you for the questions that are going to come your way when your books will be printed. You tried to give me sophisticated answers, but they are not convincing.
You are so stuck in your way of thinking that you don't even realize that the VM is written mostly in Latin letters, and that the authors of EVA never claimed it to be used for transcription into Latin letters. It is meant to be used as a common denominator: ATA-OY in EVA-OT, which is also OT in my transliteration alphabet. It is true that the T looks somewhat different than the Latin T, but most of the transliterations regard it as T, as a matter of fact, the Turkish linguists who developed contemporary Turkish alphabet, also regard it as T, and not as Y. I would understand if you designated it as D, since the D and T are often used interchangeable,  particularly in phonetic writing. 
I don't consider my transliterations anagrams. I showed you 100 words where letter-to-letter substitution is possible with my transliteration alphabet, and no other manipulation is needed for sound and spelling. Those are Slovenian words that existed in the 15th century and are still used today in dialectal speech. You can not do that with your 120-character transliteration alphabet. I understand that the adjustment for sound and spelling in necessary, but you cannot just make up the rules as you go along and claim that OY can be interpreted as AY, OYER, O YAR, OYER, EGER. After all, you are claiming that the author needed 120 characters to spell the words precisely. 
You are rationalizing the VM writing with the mind of a contemporary high-school student who has no ideal what was, and what was not possible in the Middle Ages. A travelling writer did not carry with him computer to look up for sophisticated Turkish words from various dialects and from ancient Etruscan words. The words he would learn would be simple, everyday words that were in use at the time. There were no 3000-page dictionaries, either. I imagine the vocabulary expanded in the past 600 years, and many ancient words were discovered by way of inscription, or by global communication. 
In Slovenian 1600-page dictionary, I have found 1200 different words starting with OD and another 200 starting with OT (ATA-OY). In most of the words starting with OD and OT (they sound similar), the OD and OT are prefixes, and some of them are the roots of different words.
When the same prefix is attached to the words that can have different prefixes and different suffixes, they are prefixes.
A free-standing OD is one of the most frequently used Slovenian preposition, meaning 'from', 'of'. It is often used with nouns in genitive case to express ownership, belonging, origin.
Here, you see, is my case for the prefixes in the Voynich Manuscript. 
We cannot take your word for it, because your reasoning is: Voynich Manuscript is written in Turkish, Turkish has no prefixes, therefore there cannot be prefixes in the VM.
By the way, the AY is not the only prefix in the VM, there are plenty more, such as EVA-QO, etc.

I hope that  your Turkish experts will help you to transcribe and explain the next 90 percent of the VM soon. 

Sincerely,

Cvetka

@Ahmet

I went to your site and had a quick look.
It's not exactly that I'm impressed, and especially not when I saw the banana. bana-ne.....sana ne.

But to be fair I'll have a closer look at it during the holidays at the end of the month. Then I'll also have my private Turkish interpreter with me.
Interestingly, I'm also right where the Ertruscans come from. Greek islands off Izmir.
I will also brush up on my Turkish.
As you can see, I am well prepared for Turkish. Holiday home in Kusadasi and married to a Turkish woman for over 20 years. (University of Istanbul)

@Ahmet
EVA and ATA are different things and cant be compared.
ATA takes a set of glyphs and assigns letters to them to form a plain text.
EVA takes a set of glyphs and gives them another name, in latin letters, so the glyphs can be reproduced easily in a different format. It is the same as writting chinese with latin letters, people dont understand chinesse pictograms but understand latin letters.
What is important is the set of ghyps, ATA uses a wide set of glyphs.

You have said too that the Voynich is not a cipher because it hasnt been solved. There are computational approaches to solve complex ciphers with homophonic-polyphonic-nulls, though these techniques are in development and the most complex of them need to be solved manually, see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The Voychenese structure of bigrams-trigrams is compatible with the ciphers shown in this article, so a cipher is possible.

(10-05-2022, 04:14 AM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote='Ahmet Ardıç' pid='50464' dateline='1652114611']
So, We have not yet seen a prefix in the Voynich texts. If these were prefixes of words, they would also not have been written independently. But the word OY (AY) could also be written independently. If you write the prefixes separately, they won't make any sense.

Dear Cvetka,

I'm sorry, but you hardly understood the parts you read from what I wrote.


I never claim that the author needed 120 characters to spell the words precisely. I'm sorry, but you don't understand what you're reading. Except that you don't understand, you have made a completely opposite meaning. In this way, of course, you may have trouble perceiving the work of our ATA working group in essence.

The author could simply write any book he wanted using 24 to 33 letters in a way that anyone could read. But he didn't do that. The author used an alphabet with more than 140 typefaces. He also wrote some words by deliberately splitting them up. He also deliberately combined some words. He also wrote some words in abbreviated form.

All of this became clear after we read some parts of the texts. Linguists will write various articles on these texts for at least 100 years from now on and offer various reading suggestions. Because frankly, the author must have wanted them to be difficult to read while writing the texts.

If you can see sentences here in Slovenian, you should send your article to linguists working on Slovenian. This is exactly how we do it.

In addition, you may be far from interpreting what you see in the dictionary pages we share.

Maybe all this is due to my poor English. But it doesn't matter.  

I'm not going to continue to answer again and again the topics that I have answered before. If there is a new question about the specific detail of a particular topic, I will of course answer them. 

Please feel free to success in your Slovenian readings. If I see a section in my reading that I think may be in Slovenian, I can also send you a message.

After all, linguists will have the last word. But I don't think they will be able to immediately understand sentences with abbreviated words and the old meanings of words. Linguists may not be able to fully agree among themselves about ATA-texts for many years. However, it seems that they can fully agree that there is Turkish content in the texts.

Thanks,