The Voynich Ninja

[quote="De1m0s" pid='47470' dateline='1633428098']
[Great work Mr. Ardıç !
This is the first time, i have the feeling, that somebody is reading the text right.
Great work even for the transcription of the VM letters. There are so many investigations, which language is based in the VM, based on a wrong transcritption of the single letters.]


Thanks for your comment.

I congratulate you. Even though you do not speak Turkish, I think you are the second person in this group (on the voynich ninja page) to realize that there is Turkish content in the VM-pages.

Thanks for reading our notes carefully.

(Probably, we have examine just about 10% of this VM pages in very detail yet, however currently the number of matching words with its illustrations are became 84 in VM today.)

Sneering that those who don't accept your theory have intellectual constipation, that linguists who don't accept it have mental problems, and that people here don't want to see the evidence is going to get you nowhere.  It's sad because you started off with a lot of goodwill in this thread, which I've never seen any other theory get.  Turkish was high up as a candidate language on some people's shortlists, and you came with at least initial support from Lisa Fagin Davies.  But since then, everything has been a disappointment.

(04-10-2021, 03:06 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In this way, we showed 700 words, 100 sentences and 82 word-drawing matches.

Can you please share these 100 sentences here (see point below) in English?  The only one I found in this thread was one saying a stalk had a fat and/or cute root.  The Translated Sentence section on your site has only 18 examples, and not all of them seem to be sentences, and all are in Turkish.  We cannot evaluate your claim without at the least full sentences and lots of them, preferably in context.

(04-10-2021, 03:06 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....It's been almost 4 years since we put forward our findings. There is not a single fundamental and reasoned objection that could refute or nullify our work...
...If you will not accept our clame, please you will have to explain us the reasons in scientifically way.

Others have said this earlier on in the thread, but it seems to be worthy of repeating:  it is not for us to disprove or refute your theory.  It is for you to prove it.  You have not done so.  You have not offered proof that the isolated findings are more than coincidence that is helped by your generous degrees of freedom (as summarised by Pepper You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), and you haven't addressed the reasonable queries others had earlier in this thread about how your theory accounts for quirks of Voynichese. 

(04-10-2021, 03:06 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So we showed the word SAZAK and say that is one of the clear match. Now people looking at this have 3 ways only. The first is to accept this reading, and the second is to say that it is a coincidence in the space of possibilities. The third way is to remain silent. Which way would you choose?

The fourth.  I won't accept your reading.  Nor will I say it is definitely a coincidence, although the experience of other theories and your generous degrees of freedom lean heavily in that direction.  And I'm obviously not remaining silent.

So the fourth way:  to point out to you that you have myriad competitors, many of whom have also "identified" an isolated word that matches one in their target language.  Some have identified many words.  A tiny minority went as far as translating sentences, albeit nonsense ones.  And like you, all of them have exclaimed "It can't possibly be a coincidence!"    

Every. Single. One. We can all agree that Voynichese can't all at once be Turkic, Slovenian, Middle English, Polish, Proto-Romance, Hebrew, Persian, Welsh-Urdu, etc, etc. 

So, there are an awful lot of "It can't be a coincidence!" findings turning out to be... coincidences. 

This history, and your degrees of freedom, mean the probability is that your findings are in that unfortunate camp.  If you want to differentiate yourself from the others and reduce that probability, you need to be providing people in this thread with meaningful sentences, preferably paragraphs, to demonstrate clear grammar consistent with your suggested language.  And to explain how your theory accounts for all of the non-language-like traits of Voynichese. 

If you don't do that, no amount of presenting isolated words and shouting "Maths!  Science!  Constipation!" at us will get you anywhere.

I wholeheartedly agree with tavie's post. Your Turkish theory started out with an unusual amount of goodwill from an unusual amount of forum members. Many people, including myself, *wanted* this to be the one that finally solved it. You can read the first posts in this thread to see how people were looking forward to learning more about it.

So it is not unwillingness. But you are far from the first Voynich theorist to blame his audience for the rejection of his theory, it is the standard reflex. Gerard Cheshire for example did just the same. The manuscript makes them believe that they are right, so they don't understand why others don't see the same truth. 

But the burden of proof is with the one who makes the claim. If you don't find the acceptance you desire, this means that your proof is not strong enough yet. Or that you are simply wrong.

Tutto quanto fuori dalla realtà

[attachment=5901]
I have to agree with tavie too.
If you get too deep into a theory, you quickly get bogged down.

Actually, it's not my job to disprove the theory, but here's a quick example.
Your word "zasak" can be decomposed.
The only real clue to the characters is probably the position "taurus", see example.
Put in the right order, it would be something like "torosus".
"torosus" means "muscular or fleshy".
Since both plants have something to do with wound healing, the probable correct application is already high.
I have more than a hundred examples where "taurus" can be arranged with the base, and the result is always similar to Latin.
Latin is not the language, but certainly based on it.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

[quote="tavie" pid='47476' dateline='1633469173']
[Sneering that those who don't accept your theory have intellectual constipation, that linguists who don't accept it have mental problems, and that people here don't want to see the evidence is going to get you nowhere.  It's sad because you started off with a lot of goodwill in this thread, which I've never seen any other theory get.  Turkish was high up as a candidate language on some people's shortlists, and you came with at least initial support from Lisa Fagin Davies.  But since then, everything has been a disappointment.]

Thank you for your criticism. Every criticism helps me draw certain conclusions.

I have not said this to any of the researchers in this group, including the person I answered. I don't want to be understood like that. However, if my writing is understood as an insult or disrespect, I apologize accordingly. I still haven't learned English well and I would like you to assume that I am not able to express my thoughts in English properly.

The part you quoted from my article should be considered more like a reaction. This reaction I usually expressed as belonging to people who, despite knowing Turkish well and working in the Turcology departments, were rude to us and trashed our study.

Of course, no one is compelled to look at our work and examine it deeply. Also, it is not necessary for those who view our comments or articles to know Turkish. However, if a person is a linguist and reads our article and who knowing Turkish as well, I do not think that this person has any scientific justification for rejecting the main findings. In this respect, I meant to say by analogy that they might be mentally constipated. Moreover, I think that it is necessary to use mathematics in linguistics. If you are a linguist and ignore the sound of math, then it is normal to be touchy about what I write.

When we announced our findings with a youtube video in 2018 and the subject was covered as news in a Canadian newspaper, Ms. Lisa Fagin Davis was the first academic to believe that our statements should be examined in detail by a Turkish linguist. We thanked her in the letter we wrote to her. In addition, we also expressed our gratitude to her in our book too. Ms Lisa Davis took her precious and probably limited time to read our article. We engage great importance to her experience. We tried to correct our article by paying attention to her suggestions. Because we were writing this type of article for the first time and her suggestions were very useful.

The fact that I share our comments and readings on this page should not mean that comments I am expressing what I have written for the members of this page. The Voynich ninja page also has outside readers.

When we released our first youtube video in 2018, we are receiving racist messages almost every week (and still at least once a week). Most of them contain insults and heavy profanity. All I do is delete the insulting comments (by looking at the comments several times a day) before my sons saw them. In fact, I think people's disrespectful behavior has alienated my sons from our team work.

Some of the Linguists working on the Turkish language also disrespected us without reading our article. Some said that if I will not study linguistics at an academy, they wouldn't look at our file. Some advised me to just do engineering without reading our papers. Insulting messages come from all over the world, including my country. I am deleting these messages from our page. Although I started a little late, I also collect screenshots of these insulting messages. Maybe I can publish a book of them in the future.

In 2018, one person (who trying to solve this mystery with you all) on the Voynich ninja page was also rude to us and our work. I mean, there are these types of people in every group.

However, different thoughts are wealth. Please don't be taken in person what I wrote before. Please no one get taken in person from that my comment. There are also followers outside the page who read these comments. Among them, if there are those who have insulted us or our work before, they can be taken from what we have written.

I apologize again to you and to those who think like you, for my misunderstanding due to not being able to express what I want to write correctly.

No one should insult anyone. Of course, the injustice, insults and racist behaviors done to us make me a little tired. I would like you to link my comments like this a little bit to my tiredness.

Kind regards,

Note: 
* I only do these researches as a hobby when I have free time. My working style is to look at the original pages and write my notes with a pen on a paper. I look at the notes I wrote later and transfer them to my computer time by time. The raw notes that I have shared on our website are being shared to test the technical glitches on our web page. I have to correct the sentence analyzes in terms of spelling both in Turkish and English. But for linguists who speak Turkish, there is already enough information to enable them to see that the sentences are Turkish. I will transfer 100 different sentences that have been read to the computer when I find free time and share them on our page. I have shared one of these before on this page. As I upload the rest to my own page, I can choose some of them and share them here again. The number of sentences read will increase even more. The main problem that causes this number to not increase is due to the fact that we cannot find some words in dictionaries. But in order to overcome this problem, I read many academic articles and look for some words in them. The other serious problem stems from the fact that we have not yet been able to determine which dialect the author is using. We seek the support of Turkish-speaking linguists to overcome these problems, but their tendency is usually to underestimate a family project. For this reason, this process seems to take longer. We are not in a hurry anyway, because our working life is very busy in the current situation.

Quote:When we released our first youtube video in 2018, we are receiving racist messages almost every week (and still at least once a week). Most of them contain insults and heavy profanity

Don´t let you bring down by such assholes. Continue your work!

Both, Cheshire and Hannig, coult not translate one word/one phrase without heavily adding/modifying letters. That did never convinced me, they´re right. And all their "translations" were based on an wrong alphabeth, where much letters are wrong and/or unknown.

I guess we all know, the VM is not one plain language; i guess it´s an old, forgotten dialect. But there must be ONE basic language in this dialect. Maybe the VM is much older than 14xx, and is a copy of an much older book.

Maybe, with Mr. Ardıçs alphabet, the people here in the forum can help with the translation.

[quote="Koen G" pid='47480' dateline='1633470658']

Yes the burden of proof is with the one who makes the claim for sure.

Actually, I do not expect anyone to confirm our claim on this page. Linguists who work on the Turkish language will examine this in detail. Some linguists have already done this review and have also announced that there is Turkish content in the manuscript. Moreover, we did not ask them to explain whether there is Turkish content in the writing.

As I mentioned before, this verification was done by mathematics itself. For this reason, we do not ask any academic to approve our study. It seems unreasonable to me to say this, and we don't want that from anyone. So, in this case the proof of this claim already done by math formulas itself any way. So, what we are doing now, we are trying the translate more VM texts from old Turkic to todays Turkey Turkish in our free time only, and sharing some info about the work to give update for others. 

My aim is to analyze the Turkish sentences in the content of this manuscript one by one and publish new books from them in future. I guess we and no one here is in a rush.

Moreover, every ordinary citizen who speaks Turkish cannot read this writing comfortably. Because the author's dialect is unconventional and there are indications that the author created this alphabet to make the words especially difficult to read. That's why we preferred to call this VM texts as Turkic but not Turkish in our first article. However today, since about %21 of the VM words not much change, anyone who speaks Turkish can do across-reading. 

Everything will become clearer over time. Our work is not complete yet, but it will continue for a long time after today. The sentence analyzes you would like to see, will be shared by us for sure, after they are reviewed by us one by one.

Thanks for reading,

(05-10-2021, 11:52 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[The only real clue to the characters is probably the position "taurus"]

* About SARAK:
The word you read on page 17r is SARAK. 
SARAK means a plant that can "disperse quickly" and "quickly surround to all around", and is used to describe a plant that multiplies and spreads quickly. The word root is the SAR- root of the verb SARMAK, but the -mak suffix form is not seen in dictionaries. If you look at the word SARMAK, you will see the semantic content of this word. I shared detailed information about this word on our own page. In addition, there is already a word called SARAK in Turkish. You can see the word SARAK and the word SAR- / SARMAK on these dictionary pages. 
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (If you look at the word SAR without the -mak suffix in the dictionary, you will see different contents. For example, SAR is also used as "joyful", "dice" and the name of a plant. Therefore, when we complete the sentence analysis, it will be possible to say exactly in what sense the author used it)

When you type SARAK in the search section of this link, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you will see that we read that word together with the word next to it. Here it says SARAK USAR. Today we write the same words as SARAK UZAR (also "sararak uzar"). Together, these words mean "extends to quickly encircle around". So the word was used for a plant. The terminology describes a feature of the plant. 

* About the TAURUS issue:

This star name is pronounced SOARU ("sahar-u" for sound value affinity) according to our ATA transcription. 

T / S phonetic value changes issue are common in language exchange (included in Turkish). 
Therefore, this (taurus) must be the word used in the mouth of the author SOARU (TOARU) (again the phonetic value near form of the name taurus and toarus). 

In addition, another possibility is that the SOARU spelling has a sound value close to the word SAHAR-U. 
Here, the -U at the end is just the word suffix that points to the object (object pointing suffix). 
That is, the root of the word should be SAHAR-. 

The synonym of the word SAHAR is the word SABAH and also in some dialects it is pronounced as SEHER. 
[attachment=5902] (In this link, you can refer to the article that states that the words SEHER and SABAH are synonymous (on page 3)). 
also see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
In the Turkish language, there is both a plant name and a star name, which are referred to as SABAH YILDIZI (SEHER YILDIZI). 
(You can find out that what I said is true from this word link.)
[attachment=5903] 

[attachment=5904] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

[attachment=5905] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 

[attachment=5906] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and another synonym of SABAH and SEHER and SAHAR is (ZAHİR) here You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

NOTE: According to the calculation of mathematical probabilities, it is possible to read one or a few words in almost every language in the world with all kinds of different transcriptions that can be made in the world. But undoubtedly the most accurate transcription is the one that counts the most words to read. Without this key it would not be possible to read. EVA key and others don't make you read. But you see that our ATA key is also useful for reading the words you think you are reading. In other words, it has been a question of wasting for many years with EVA, and those who thought that this key was correct could not reach the result. I think we kind of swept that EVA and others with ATA. However, mathematical probabilities already approve our ATA but never "European"-VA for sure.


Thank you for reading

[quote="De1m0s" pid='47491' dateline='1633507900']

We will share the necessary information about VM (in youtube and in many web pages) without using offensive words, but only by presenting scientific evidence. 
It is better to do so. 
Thanks