The Voynich Ninja

Thanks to Nablator.
Now that 4 plants have the same word, maybe it's a description and not a name.
What would link the 4 plants together?

(16-04-2024, 12:14 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="Ahmet Ardıç" pid='58893' dateline='1713216821']
The author wrote some plant names just like today.

[Dear Ahmet, It would be more convincing to see them written as they were in the 15th century.]

[This is f67v1 you are looking at: v2 comes before v1. I see your "sarı çlapax" (or close enough, the space isn't there and two letters are a bit unclear). Your "ay'i" again is very optimistic, or it doesn't exist. Shouldn't it be at or ati as a distinct word?]




Dear Nablator,

First, let me answer the question linked to Page 67v. As you know, although the texts in the content cannot always be read clearly and there is probably more than one person's hand in this manuscript (as I thought and-or as thought by Ms. Lisa Fagin Davis), at this stage, I have not had the opportunity to examine in detail in the page. While talking about the words we read with such a first reading, we see that the author wrote the word meaning AY (moon) in the form of OY (in the Latin alphabet). If there are I/U/Ü/İ word suffixes at the end of the word, this is written as OYU (ay-ı) according to the vowel harmony of Turkish. The equivalent of the last U is the English word "the". So here it is written as OYU, not AYI or AYU but it is as "ay-ı" in modern Turkish.

It seems that it can be interpreted with the way the third letter from the beginning is written in the words "sarıçılapax/sarı-çlapax". If this is a letter written like a dot, then it should be read with the "AN" sound. Therefore the words will take the form "SARAN ÇLAPAX". In this case, the English equivalent of these words will mean "surrounding lights".

Your main question (as I understand) seems to aim at understanding whether a word such like "SAZAK" exists in Turkish in 15th century or determining its historical origins. Even if I could show you the ancient form of this word in Arabic script in one particular MS, I believe it wouldn't precisely answer your question. Many ancient manuscripts were written in Arabic script during the Ottoman period, and I cannot read the originals myself. However, I read academic articles about them and sift through names and synonyms in these articles. Additionally, various dictionaries written by linguists are referenced occasionally, and I often consult these to identify them. My methods and the path I follow during our VM related research have always been the same as those experienced and successful linguists before me.

Below, I will mention some sources or articles where the word "SAZAK" is mentioned. However, it should be noted that showing a word in a modern dictionary as evidence of its existence in VM content is a consistent reference point. It's valuable as linguistic evidence by itself, even without any other proof.

While asking for a question and evidence is part of the process, there are also other ways and methods in linguistic outside of the path or method considered as the way to have one particular evidence of linguistics. Regarding the mention of the word "SAZAK," it's important to emphasize that linguistic evidence doesn't always need to come from historical texts or ancient sources. The presence of a word in a modern dictionary or linguistic corpus can also serve as strong evidence of its existence. 

VM-like unread inscriptions become readable when linguists use certain methods. Therefore, it is advisable to consider past practices that do not rely on a single finding or evidence, but rather utilize multiple methods together and evaluate multiple findings simultaneously. For example, it can easily be examined whether there are structural similarities between compared texts. Statistical comparison can also be employed in this regard. Identifying word repetitions and words written side by side up to five times serve as direct evidence of a certain language. Finding such clear evidence marks an important stage of progress, as we have done, and assures us of the Turkish content of the texts. Subsequently, we performed an alphabet transcription. In doing so, we used the familiar sound values of known signs. For instance, mapping Old Turkic runic signs and Latin alphabet sound values to VM letter images. Indeed, the only way to read unreadable ancient inscriptions is through an accurate alphabet transcription. While the matters of word and sentence reading and interpretation details can be addressed in the next stage, the questions we pose to readers here are part of our completed work that has passed through these stages. Obtaining the answer you seek from us would provide limited information within this narrow scope. 

There are some methods to verify the accuracy of the words we read in the VM content, and these are incorporated into practice. By receiving reciprocal answers to the questions we pose to you and those you pose to us, we can understand where we stand and also assist in the more consistent examination of our own work by others. At this point, while I cannot get answers to my simple questions, you bring up whether we can find the same word written in the 15th century with a single question. Of course, you may ask us questions, but I hope you are aware of the significance of linguistic methods to understand to what extent the answer you receive would benefit you. Because often, despite receiving such answers or similar ones, some individuals claim they cannot evaluate the responses by asserting they do not know Turkish. That's why I'm asking my questions in a simplified manner. I present a word and show a drawing, then ask a question related to them. If any person do not possess the research ability to answer these simple questions that just because of the related language is Turkish, would this person really want to evaluate the recorded old form of a Turkish word from the 15th century? While attempting to describe the progress made in a simple manner, I am unable to get answers to my simple questions. In this case, should I start scanning various books to find out in which manuscripts of the 15th century the word SAZAK appears as if it were a task you assigned to me? 

The essence is that some words used in modern languages can also exist in the VM content (throughout 240 pages). Furthermore, we always refer to various written sources so that at least it is understood that the words we reference exist in Turkish. As a IE language speaker researcher please think again, while you struggle to interpret 400-year-old English words from your Indo-European manuscripts, would you still seek to evaluate a 600-year-old word from a debated dialect of Turkish?

Let's assume that the Turkish word "SAZAK" appears for the first time (in its oldest written form) in the VM manuscript. In this case, we can say that the oldest source in which the word appears is the VM manuscript.The comparison of the words reveals the relationship between the Turkish vocabulary of today and the vocabulary of the VM old Turkish content. And if we can do this, we already reach a conclusion. If we can also demonstrate that we can reach the same conclusion by following the method you suggested, can you evaluate our Eski Türkçe lehçeler arası ses geçişleri bilgisi (inter-dialectal sound transitions in Old Turkish) while we do this?

Would we need to demonstrate the existence of another word for 'apple' written in written sources of the same language during the same period or any period before to prove that this word, written in an alphabet not encountered before, means 'apple' ? Or should we first prove that this word, written in an unreadable alphabet, means 'apple' before doing so? In other words, we are firstly giving an evidence for that the word read by us as like apple is rally an aple.  So, we had asked those basic questions to help you to understand that we had surpassed that first stage.

It is seen in many academic articles and different dictionaries that the word "SAZAK" appears. Some of these dictionaries belong to the "Türk Dil Kurumu" (Turkish Language Association), which is a state authority in linguistics. In some academic articles, you can see that the word "SAZAK" or its synonyms are mentioned, and the explanation of the word "SAZAK" is provided in these articles. This should at least inform you that the word "SAZAK" exists in Turkish and provide information about its meaning.

In some articles written about a manuscript called "Tercüme-i Baytarname," which is known to have been written in 1479 and is about horses, the word "SAZAK" appears with its synonyms as "MERSİN". For example, in an article called "HORSE COATS, HORSE TOMBERS AND PLANT NAMES IDENTIFIED IN THE WORK CALLED HAZÂ KİTÂB-I BAYTARNÂME," you can see that this word is explained in Turkish along as its synonym. (Which article subject is essentially about the 15th-century manuscript mentioned above.) This is a "baytarname" about horse and plant names, known to have been written in 1479, in the section where the words are explained with their synonyms (Tercüme-i Baytarname) to see pages 104 and 114 here) >>
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Other sources where the word Sazak is used with the same meaning:
1 > Dictionary of Colloquial Compilation in Turkey, Ankara, Turkish Language Association, 1978 volume: 10 S-T ( sa - tüzlük )
Bakınız >  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

2 > PLANT NAMES IN TURKISH DICTIONARY >You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
&
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3 > Article;; "MULTIPLE MEANINGYNESS IN PLANT NAMES" by Yasemin YILDIZ >
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4 > See the word/name SAZAK in this Doctoral Thesis article named > "THE PLANT NAMES IN HISTORICAL TURKIC LANGUAGES, KAZAKH AND TURKISH LANGUAGES" by Aigül Türkpenova, . 2021 > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

5 > See the plant name Mersin is sinonimus with SAZAK from the
Adıyaman University Social Sciences Institute Journal, Year: 4, Issue: 7, December 2011, p. 123-145 > "THE PLANT NAMES IN THE ‘ALÂ’İM-İ CERRÂHÎN" / Article by Mehmet Gürlek. (Alaim-i Cerrahin , which means “Surgical symptoms”, is an important surgical medical text written at the end of the 15th century.)

6 > See the plant name SAZAK in this article too > AL-UḲYÂNÛSU ’L-BASÎṬ FÎ TARCAMATİ ’L-ḲÂMÛSİ ’L-MUḤÎṬ - ĞAYN -ARTİCLE (al-muġaẓġaẓa - al-iġtiyâl) INTRODUCTION –TEXT - VOCABULARY - INDEX
by Kadir YAĞIZ / Erzincan University, Institute of Social Sciences, Department of Turkish Language and Literature M.A. Thesis, June 2013 page 165

etc ...

I can extend the reference sources to hundreds of dictionaries and articles. But I think even these will prove that the plant name SAZAK exists in Turkish. As I said, this word is written as SAZAK in VM. Today, we still write this word as SAZAK. Those who understand this situation and similar ones also understand that we are on the right track.

Thanks

[I don't understand what you are asking. Are you offering to send a Google link? Or is there already some Google link in a previous post that I should know about? I see a lot of plants in post #443 from April 10th. I have no knowledge of any of the plants in post #443.]
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[/quote]



Dear piburkshire, 

When I share about word and drawing overlaps, I also show these words on the dictionary pages. The reason I did this is for the readers to see that these words exist in Turkish and their meanings. You may not know these plants. I also give the Latin names of most of them. I also find photos of them by searching Google and see how they look. What I mean is this: You can do the same thing without needing to know Turkish. Of course, if you want to do this.

The question we ask is actually very simple. We present a plant name, a drawing and a photo of that plant. We show that this name is found in both VM and modern Turkish. What we are essentially asking you is whether you see this similarity or not. Additionally, when we show words whose phonetic value has not changed in 600 years, we ask what this means in terms of linguistics and VM. In other words, these are the questions in their simplest form, but of course, intermediate questions are also given by us depending on these questions.

In fact, many researchers scan VM drawings first. Than after they search some potential worsd in some languages. Because they compare the plants depicted in the VM drawings to certain plants. For the first time in VM research history, we did the exact opposite. We have been read the VM pages first, then found the plant names. Afterwards, we examined what these names meant and compiled and compared the visuals of these plants. So, we read the texts first and then found the matches. Can you understand the difference?

(16-04-2024, 09:36 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(16-04-2024, 09:17 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[Have you checked the words to see if they also appear elsewhere?]

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Dear Nablator,

Yes I have. Some of the words that match the drawings also appear in other places, and some appear only in one place. When we see the same word twice, we check whether it has the same meaning in the sentence. Some may remember, we have given examples here before.

Please don't ask questions as like "this word X is on this page & also on page Y too" one by one, because I will go expect you to interpret the overlaps we have shown here before.

At the same time, I follow the particular sequence in my own research plan. However, you may remember that I answered the questions you asked many times, even though I could not get answers to my own questions.

(16-04-2024, 10:20 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[Now that 4 plants have the same word, maybe it's a description and not a name.
What would link the 4 plants together?]

Dear Tentakulus,

How did you learn that 4 plants have the same name?
There is no such thing.

However, on the pages where a plant was described, other plant names were also written and some comparisons and explanations were made between them.

I have also written many times that the author grafted some different plants together and tried to create new species.

For these reasons, do not be surprised if the name of plant B is written on the page where plant A is described, unless you have the ability to read the content. Also, do not be surprised if you see the name AB plant for the combined species, because the author has made these names for some species.

(16-04-2024, 03:01 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The question we ask is actually very simple. We present a plant name, a drawing and a photo of that plant. We show that this name is found in both VM and modern Turkish. What we are essentially asking you is whether you see this similarity or not.

I do not see similarities. I do not think they are a match. I'm not an expert on banana trees but I have seen live banana trees and I have seen no illustration in the Voynich Manuscript that looks to me like a banana tree.

I think you should forget about plants. Plants have too much room for incorrect identification. You should focus on the Sun and the Moon. Like the song says:

There is just one moon
And one golden sun

Dear friends, dear researchers,

I had mentioned some structural similarities between VM texts and Turkish texts through comparison. For instance, in Turkish, words do not only begin with certain sounds/letters but also do not end with some sounds/letters. I had listed these here because there is a complete overlap in these sounds/letters among the compared texts. This is a specific case unique to Turkish.

For example, besides word repetitions in pairs, triplets, quadruplets, and quintuplets, which are unique to Turkish, I had also provided examples from historical manuscripts and references to academic articles on this matter. (Some might remember.)

For instance, it is known that in the manuscript "Kutadgu Bilig" written by Yusuf Has Hacib in the 11th century, there are examples of word repetitions in pairs, triplets, quadruplets, and quintuplets. Such instances are encountered in all known periods of written Turkish.

Now, these are clear structural overlaps that are exclusively and solely peculiar to Turkish. They have not been observed in other languages in the same way. There is not a single record of anything similar in languages other than Turkish throughout history.

So what does this mean? How should we interpret this? I had asked these questions, and you did not answer them either. If all these, along with more than 1000 words, 112 drawing-word matches and hundreds of complete sentence readings and some full-page readings, are not sufficient for you to realize that Turkish is present in the content, then I don't know what else to say to you.

Is there any researcher who can show similar repetitions of words (such as quadruplets or quintuplets) in any other language's manuscript?

You cannot do this in any language other than Turkish.

[attachment=8434]

Yes,

Please, I am waiting for your comments on all the overlaps. 

It is my hope and belief that Ms. Lisa Fagin Davis may recognized long ago that our assertion regarding the potential presence of Turkish in the content stands as the most compelling possibility. However, I speculate that she may be awaiting interpretation from Turkish language specialists and linguists. Or she may not have had the free time to read our latest articles/posts or follow the developments of our work because she may too busy with her work.

I am also grateful to dear Lisa Fagin Davis for taking the time to review our first paper/work and giving us many valuable advice on how to write an academic article in the most accurate way. I would like to thank her again, here in front of you all. As a family team members, we are lucky to have the chance to benefit from her intelligence and experience.

It's worth noting that many Turkish language experts already extend their congratulations upon successfully interpreting these my paper. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Best regards,

(16-04-2024, 03:32 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(16-04-2024, 03:01 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The question we ask is actually very simple. We present a plant name, a drawing and a photo of that plant. We show that this name is found in both VM and modern Turkish. What we are essentially asking you is whether you see this similarity or not.

[I do not see similarities. I do not think they are a match. I'm not an expert on banana trees but I have seen live banana trees and I have seen no illustration in the Voynich Manuscript that looks to me like a banana tree.]

There is just one moon
And one golden sun

Dear pjburkshire,

We have shown overlaps in animal names as well as star names etc. I guess you didn't look at them but that's okay. I may think that I cannot convince you.

The reason why the banana tree looks different is because the leaf tips are cut with the help of scissors. I talked to growers who used this practice in the past & they said that this practice was done in the past because it was done to prevent some problems starting at the leaf tips to drying out all the leaves. I think they were cutting off the leaves that were starting to dry out from some plant pest or the heat. The author has already written about this type of applications.

So, I learned your opinion.

I have obtained all the previous affirmations from botanists. 
Thank you for sharing your opinion though.

(16-04-2024, 04:24 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is there any researcher who can show similar repetitions of words (such as quadruplets or quintuplets) in any other language's manuscript?

You cannot do this in any language other than Turkish.

Ja, ohne Ende.
Beispiele in deutsch.
"Wenn hinter fliegen fliegen fliegen, fliegen fliegen fliegen nach"
Wenn hinter robben robben robben, robben robben robben nach"

Und jetzt mit Tonverschiebung.

"Wenn hinter Griechen Griechen kriechen, kriechen Griechen Griechen nach."
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Kinderreime machen es möglich.

Yes, without end.
Examples in German.
"When behind fly fly fly fly fly fly fly after"
When behind robben robben robben, robben robben robben"

And now with a shift in tone.

"When Greeks crawl behind Greeks, Greeks crawl after Greeks."

Nursery rhymes make it possible.

(17-04-2024, 03:02 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="Ahmet Ardıç" pid='58931' dateline='1713281042']

["Wenn hinter fliegen fliegen fliegen, fliegen fliegen fliegen nach"
Wenn hinter robben robben robben, robben robben robben nach"

Und jetzt mit Tonverschiebung.

"Wenn hinter Griechen Griechen kriechen, kriechen Griechen Griechen nach."
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Kinderreime machen es möglich.

Yes, without end.
Examples in German.
"When behind fly fly fly fly fly fly fly after"
When behind robben robben robben, robben robben robben"

And now with a shift in tone.

"When Greeks crawl behind Greeks, Greeks crawl after Greeks."

Nursery rhymes make it possible.]

Dear Mr. Aga Tentakulus,

I have carefully read through the examples you provided, and I appreciate that you have elaborated on your perspective, at least in response to one of my questions.

Frankly, I anticipated such a response to my inquiry about word repetitions because you are not the first person to offer a similar explanation. However, I must express that your response, while I understand, falls short of scientific rigor.

In modern language, word repetitions can be generated in nursery rhymes and, presumably, in any language when desired. I am aware of their existence to some extent. However, the question I posed does not concern this aspect.

As you know, scientific comparison and analysis have established methodologies determined by specific fields or areas under investigation. For instance, if we are comparing two things, they must share similarities or fall within a specified scope. If we are to compare a bicycle wheel with an airplane wheel, we need to understand the purpose and where the comparison will lead us. Similarly, we must determine whether we are comparing one apple with another or an apple with an orange. Would there be a need to compare birth rates of people living near the poles during the Middle Ages with those in tropical areas in modern times?

If we are to approach this task within the realm of linguistics and logic, we must first establish a timeframe, such as the period from the 10th to the 18th century (or all ancient periods of the compared written languages), and then compare the frequency of word repetitions in texts during this designated period and whether they occur in the same manner or not. Otherwise, the endeavor would lack scientific validity. If we were to discuss the creation of nursery rhymes, I could easily extend word repetitions in Turkish to an extent that might surprise you, but it would be irrelevant because it serves no purpose.

Now, if you can show me evidence from any ancient language other than Old Turkish, such as German, English, Greek, or any other language, of triple, quadruple, or quintuple word repetitions in texts from the Middle Ages or any other period, please do so. Please indicate the scholars who have cited these occurrences and provide references to the academic articles and books. Furthermore, we are all aware of the occurrences and frequency of word repetitions in VM texts. In my previous comments and articles, I have mentioned, with references to academic sources, that in some dialects of Old Turkish, word repetitions were used to pluralize words. I have also mentioned the existence of another Old Turkish manuscript with examples of repetitions up to quintuples, along with references to its academic sources. For instance, I have stated who authored the scientific articles and that these linguists have noted the occurrences of such word repetitions, up to quintuples, in written Turkish from all ancient periods, in manuscripts and inscriptions.

Now, leaving aside nursery rhymes or linguistic potentials, please, if possible, show me a single scientist, a single article, or a single manuscript that mentions triple, quadruple, or quintuple word repetitions in any ancient language other than Old Turkish. Show me where these experts have referred to ancient manuscripts or books and specify the dates they were written. By doing so, we would not be comparing a bicycle wheel with an orange.

Now, I ask the same question to every researcher in this group. Can you find similar structural overlaps between VM texts and written Old Turkish texts in any other language in the world? I have been asking this question on various platforms for several years and have also examined numerous academic articles to find this information. In the end, I have not found such an overlap in any other language. If you or anyone else can find similar overlaps in any other language, could you demonstrate and present them?

You do not need to know Turkish. I have mentioned two fundamental structural features: the structure and frequency of word repetitions in the language and the absence of words starting or ending with certain sounds or letters in Old Turkish. To assure you of the authenticity of these features, I have provided references to academic articles where they are discussed. These features, together or separately, are specific only to Turkish.

Our question is very simple: Do similar overlaps exist in ancient writings of other languages? I know they do not. If you do not know, please check Google or use artificial intelligence. These features are partially present in agglutinative languages like Japanese, Korean, Mongolian, or Hungarian, which share the same root as Turkish. However, even in these languages, occurrences of word repetitions up to quintuples are not found and they are uniquely recorded in Turkish only. Moreover, the frequency of word repetitions in these languages is absurdly scarce compared to Old Turkish.  Also, if an ancient language used duplications of words to make them plural, should we be surprised that there are word duplications in almost every page of ancient writing? What other languages do you know that write the plural of words by repeating that word twice? For example, in medieval German or Greek or Italian manuscripts, how many word duplications or nursery rhymes do you see on every 3 pages, let alone on every page? Even someone who does not know Turkish or cannot read VM texts but is aware of this information should recognize that the manuscript is most likely in Turkish.

I believe that there are many individuals in this Voynich-ninja group who understand how scientific research should be conducted and how templates for scientific comparison should be used. Our common question is whether, in the face of these findings, even if they cannot read the texts, they can acknowledge Turkish as the most plausible candidate.

I believe that no one here would deviate from scientific criteria based on nationality, language, or race. So, do not misunderstand my words, but if the same findings were presented for German, English, or Greek, and if they were not found in Turkish, you would probably have already declared the manuscript to be ancient Greek based on this evidence. We should not ignore a scientific fact based on the presumed language of the manuscript, and I do not want to believe that anyone here would do so. Now, I am discussing findings and evidence. If you have no evidence to the contrary, I sincerely expect you to reexamine my findings or acknowledge that "although we cannot read it, we understand that Turkish is the most likely candidate."

Of course, I do not expect those who do not know how to evaluate such scientific data or understand how it contributes to our understanding to make such comments or confirmations. Now, may I compare an apple from the Middle Ages with another from the Middle Ages and get your thoughts again?

Thanks & Best regards,