Ahmet Ardıç > 01-08-2020, 10:48 AM
(31-07-2020, 09:18 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(31-07-2020, 07:10 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is the small clues that make it so difficult to believe that it is Turkish.
Example:
Why is the Latin alphabet used when in the Eastern Roman Empire, Greek was normal.
Hi Peter,
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. mentioned Codex Cumanicus You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a few years ago.
From the Wikipedia page:
Quote:It consist of two parts. The first part consists of a dictionary in Latin, Persian and Cuman written in the Latin alphabet, and a column with Cuman verbs, names and pronouns with its meaning in Latin. The second part consists, Cuman-German dictionary, information about the Cuman grammar, and poems belonging to Petrarch.
The Codex uses the Latin alphabet and contains a mix of Romance languages (Latin and Italian), German, Cuman (a Turkic language) and Persian (which had a considerable influence on Turkish). I see no reason to exclude Turkish languages from the candidates. In his 2014 paper You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Stephen Bax mentioned reduplication in Turkic languages as a relevant feature. He also wrote:
Stephen Bax Wrote:the language in the VM could be borrowed in part from Indo-European languages such as Latin, and could be acting in part as an Abjad, like Arabic and other Semitic scripts, the underlying language could nevertheless be from a completely different language family again, such as Turkic.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also mentioned that Turkic languages are good candidates. She also pointed out some simple You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Expanding on Emma's observations, Ahmet believes that the Turkish 'k' is represented by EVA:m m. He seems not to be aware that EVA:m almost exclusively appears at the end of lines: it looks like a special feature of the writing system. In my opinion, the best explanation is that it is an abbreviation symbol, but there may be other good explanations.
Anyway, EVA:m clusters at line ends while Turkish:k is an ordinary character. The idea that the two are the same thing is obviously wrong.
I hope the attached image makes clear both the line-effect for EVA:m and the higher frequency of Turkish 'k'.
EVA:m occurs in 2.6% of word-tokens, Turkish:k in 23.9% (I used the Zandbergen-Landini transliteration ignoring uncertain spaces and the Turkish file in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). The difference is huge, almost one order of magnitude. It's really strange that Ahmet did not notice.
Almost all (95.8%) Voynichese words which include EVA:m have the character at word-end. Turkish 'k' has no preference for the word-ending position. Also from this side, things definitely don't work.
Turkish k words%: 23.9% word-final: 25.2%
Voynich m words%: 2.6% word-final: 95.8%
We have seen so many people make the same mistakes that it's only natural to be put off. But Ahmet's efforts may still have the effect of stimulating more research on the Turkic-language hypothesis and maybe others with a greater interest for evidence will look at this. Not all evil comes to harm.
Ahmet Ardıç > 01-08-2020, 11:44 AM
Ahmet Ardıç > 01-08-2020, 01:56 PM
(01-08-2020, 05:52 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am particularly obsessed by parallels and good parallels for features in the VMS are often impossible to find.
But in this case You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. pointed out a great one: the alchemical herbal Vicenza Bertoliana MS 362 (sample page from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
I believe this particular piece of evidence adds immensely to the relevance of this detail. The parallel with the Vicenza ms was also published by Alain Touwaide in his 2015 paper "L'Erbario Voynich".
- The same word ("rot")
- In a similar manuscript (a one-plant-per-page herbal)
- In a similar position (annotating the plant illustration)
- From the same time-frame (XV Century)
Moreover, the Vicenza ms contains other annotations that can be compared with the VMS: for instance 'g' for 'grün' inside green-painted leaves (see Rene's post I linked above).
I think this parallels have several possible implication:
- at least some members of the team that created the VMS spoke German;
- they were aware of this style of colour annotations;
But of course this evidence does not rule out the possibility that the underlying language of the main text is Turkic (though it certainly does nothing to support the idea).
- they were probably familiar with the "alchemical" one-plant-per-page layout.
R. Sale > 01-08-2020, 05:53 PM
Ruby Novacna > 01-08-2020, 08:20 PM
(01-08-2020, 05:53 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I suggest the outer band of text from VMs White AriesBetter to offer the text of free choice, because I don't believe that the Turkish translation is sufficiently advanced, as indeed are several others, mine included.
R. Sale > 01-08-2020, 09:52 PM
Ahmet Ardıç > 02-08-2020, 11:03 PM
(01-08-2020, 05:53 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Pardon the introduction of a hair-brained hypothesis, but much of the interpretation for certain VMs illustrations has tended to be historically European; such things as the Oresme cosmos, the use of heraldry and the Genoese popes, Melusine, the Golden Fleece. This aligns to a time and place approximated to the Duchy of Burgundy after circa 1430.
Burgundy, at the beginning of this florescence would have been a polyglot of French, German, Portuguese, Dutch, English and Italian. Any linguistic choice is possible.
Burgundy had enough 'Islamic contact' in the Christian defeat at Nicopolis in 1396. Later, the Burgundian ambassador to Russia used the trade route south to the Black Sea and returned via the Mediterranean. Burgundy had naval forces in the Black Sea in the 1440s. The Genoese preceded them about a century prior. The counts of Flanders ruled the Latin kingdom of Byzantium. Flanders later became an early and essential part of Valois Burgundy. The VMs cosmos reveals an eastern influence, if the outer circle and the eight curved spokes can be attributed to the influence of Shirakatsi.
So, perhaps Voynichese is Turkish. And not necessarily good Turkish, as spoken by a native speaker, but Turkish as composed by a Burgundian. Just think of all the possible problems there. Good grief! But it is a possibility.
All of the 'yes, it is' - 'no, it isn't' discussion is going nowhere. There needs to be a convincing demonstration from the beginning that can be presented to those who maintain the contradictory opinion. And as a subject of the demonstration, I suggest the outer band of text from VMs White Aries, because it is marked and because it has internal structure.
Ahmet Ardıç > 02-08-2020, 11:40 PM
(01-08-2020, 10:08 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="-JKP-" pid='39235' dateline='1596249462']
This is germanic:
"rot" is also German for red (it occurs twice, once from left to right and once from top to bottom), and the "g" on f1v is probably green, and the "por" (Viola plant) is probably purple/violet.
.
The latter one was posted by MarcoP on the annotations thread.
Since "rot" is posted in two places, in two directions, and one is painted brick red, it can probably be interpreted as "red".
-JKP- > 03-08-2020, 12:09 AM
(02-08-2020, 11:40 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
-JKP- > 03-08-2020, 12:25 AM
Quote:Sorry to say that, but the explanation you make right now is purely coincidental or a kind of anagram.