Ahmet Ardıç > 30-07-2020, 05:56 PM
(30-07-2020, 08:39 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Basically:
On page f116 in the VM I see a text, probably written in a romanic dialect.
At different places I have German text.
Why should I assume that a third language is suddenly in play.
At the same time there is the change of the writing direction. left-right, right-left.
There is also no hint in the drawings to an origin in the Middle East.
Your explanations about prefixes and suffixes would ( example ) also work in German.
E.g.: (go) gehen: auf-gehen, zu-gehen, vor-gehen, ver-gehen, aus-gehen. Endings like -heit , -keit, -ung, -nis, -tum are also not uncommon.
If I would take the VM-sign "o" at the beginning of a word and use it as "a", it would even have a multiple function.
So why Turkish ?
The same applies to all languages where writing is from right to left.
Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)
Ahmet Ardıç > 30-07-2020, 08:27 PM
(30-07-2020, 08:39 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Basically:
On page f116 in the VM I see a text, probably written in a romanic dialect.
At different places I have German text.
Why should I assume that a third language is suddenly in play.
At the same time there is the change of the writing direction. left-right, right-left.
There is also no hint in the drawings to an origin in the Middle East.
Your explanations about prefixes and suffixes would ( example ) also work in German.
E.g.: (go) gehen: auf-gehen, zu-gehen, vor-gehen, ver-gehen, aus-gehen. Endings like -heit , -keit, -ung, -nis, -tum are also not uncommon.
If I would take the VM-sign "o" at the beginning of a word and use it as "a", it would even have a multiple function.
So why Turkish ?
The same applies to all languages where writing is from right to left.
Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)
RobGea > 30-07-2020, 09:01 PM
Ahmet Ardıç > 30-07-2020, 09:26 PM
(30-07-2020, 01:46 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Ahmet,
thank you for the additional information!
Since a few years, I believe that labels may be a good way to test a proposed solution. So I had a look at your analysis of the Libra roundel in f72v1 (discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
For comparison, I paste here Takahashi's and Zandbergen-Landini's transliterations of these words:
TT otalal.dalal.ykeols.oteos.aiin.yotoam.oteey.saiin.oteoos.am.
ZL.r otalal.dalal.ykeols.oteo,r,aiin.yotoam.oteey.saiin.oteeos,am
ATA1 OYAPAP SAPAP ÜLCÖP 2 ÖYCÖ ZAĞN 9 OYOEK OYGU ZAĞN OYGÖZEK
ATA2 AY+AHBAP SAPIP ÖLÇÜP 2 ÖLÇÜ-SAĞIN 9 AYA+EK AYGI SAĞIN AY+GÖZEK
ATA3 AY+AHPAP SAPIP ÖLÇÜP İKİ ÖLÇÜ-SAĞIN DOKUZ AYA+EK AYGI SAĞIN AY+GÖZEK
English Translation: “Hey friends, with using the deviating measurement (scale), to make two net-right-measurements for clearly expressing that period over nine months, let's count the months and observe the moon with the tool.”
Comment:
Quote:From here we understand that the author's message is for pregnant women.
I don't see any great difference between this translation and other similar attempts, e.g. Cheshire's proto-romance or the recent Hebrew solution by Rainer Hanning.
Here are a few observations and suggestions. I am not a linguist nor any kind of expert, it's just the point of view of a Voynich amateur.
*A*
From how it is presented, the above translation appears to be a word-salad which does not strike me as very meaningful.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. about Hanning's Hebrew solution come to mind:
Quote:The overwhelming feeling is that Hannig, having extracted Hebrew letters for a Voynich word, then scoured Hebrew dictionaries for any word, archaic and rare as it may be, for anything that will match or semi-match.
Your Turkish-English translation is notably a-grammatical, e.g. it only includes impersonal verb forms (present participle, infinitive, imperative). The approach seems to be: 1) map to Latin characters, 2) browse a dictionary to get a word salad, 3) get some sense out of it. This is the most widespread Voynich translation approach. It works with any language, but it requires renouncing to grammar.
Suggestion: provide more details about verifiable grammatical structures, showing that your approach is very different from those of other "solvers".
*B*
"Hey friends" sounds like a strange thing to write in a short text at the centre of a page for a central sign in a several pages long zodiac section. I must say I don't think I have ever read anything similar in a medieval manuscript. Is this formula something that is often found in Turkish medieval scientific manuscripts?
Also, the two different meanings of saiin in a single sentence should be supported by parallels in actual documents.
Suggestion: attach examples from other Turkish manuscripts for all the constructs for which parallels exist. Expect anything that is not clearly documented to be considered unconvincing.
*C*
In the German You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Libra is called "die wag" ("the scales" in German). In the Latin You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it is called "Libra" ("the scales" in Latin).
This is totally normal in European manuscripts. I don't think that "the deviating measurement" is the normal way to say "the scales" in Turkish? Isn't there a simpler word?
Also, the words that should point to pregnancy ("nine months" and possibly the moon), are:
1. the immensely frequent voynichese glyph y which is arbitrarily detached from yotoam and interpreted as the Arabic number 9 (rendered with the Turkish word "dokuz")
2. oteoos.am which is arbitrarily re-arranged as ot-eoosam; eoosam is read as GÖZEK, of which it is said: "The word '+ GÖZEK' is used for observing the sky with a tool and for counting months/days. (Which mean looking to the moon/sky with binoculars or with a lens-observation-tool.) From the handwriting written here, we understand that the author observed the sky with using some kind of lens instrument. (We think at the same time that the author carefully wrote this manuscript with using a magnifying glass. The author should probably have also looked small creatures with using magnifiers for seeing those which creatures invisible with looking naked eye...)"
I would like to see a dictionary entry for GÖZEK, but even if there actually is an entry for "observing the sky with a tool and counting months", I don't think that translating as "nine months" is legitimate. y (nine) and eoosam (counting months?) are separated by four other Voynichese words: it seems implausible that they are closely connected.
Suggestion: always link specific entries in an online-available dictionary or add quotes of a specific Turkish-English dictionary. And, again, make clear the grammatical relationship between words. Maybe parse-trees could help?
*D*
It seems you are not familiar with what others have found about the Voynich manuscript. For instance this is your comment about the "octe(m)bre" annotation: "This word should have been added in a later period by a different person by using a different pen. We think that this addition was added by the antiquarian Voynich or one of his workers at the time period." Researchers substantially agree on dating the month names to the late XV / early XVI Century; there is no reason to believe that they are as late as the XX Century. But this is just a minor example, you don't seem to be aware of Currier's languages, line effects, low character entropy, reduplication and quasi-reduplication, Grove words etc.
Suggestion: read what others have written about Voynichese (Rene's voynich.nu site is a great resource) and show how your Turkish hypothesis can explain the phenomena that other researches have pointed out in the past decades.
There are many people who published translations which are similar to yours in both method and results. If you are not satisfied with Turkish TV and you want to reach a wider, unbiased audience, your best hope is being more rigorous than your numberless competitors.
You wrote:
Quote:I am very confident in saying that "in the future, no linguist will be able to prove that VMS writing is not Turkish if her/his professional knowledge of Turkish language is not weak" for sure.Things don't work that way. If you claim that the VMS is written in Turkish, the burden of proof is on you. Linguists are totally free to ignore your claims. On the contrary, you should provide solid evidence in support of your ideas. The translation you propose appears to be comparable with other Voynich translations written in different languages. Of course it is impossible to prove that the VMS is not Turkish (or Latin, or Hebrew etc). This does not show that your hypothesis is better than others, it only shows the current state of Voynich research.
Ahmet Ardıç > 30-07-2020, 10:15 PM
(30-07-2020, 09:01 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ahmet Ardıç wrote:
"In Turkish double, triple, quadruple, and quintile repetitions of the same word (for different purpose and/or functions) are also seen (as same as in VMS). Can you please say us that same thing is found in any other European language?"
This is probably not quite what you meant, but yes, repetition like that can occur in English :
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
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"Words, words, words."—Hamlet
"O horror, horror, horror."—Macbeth
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to record record profits
to address address problems
to refuse refuse charges
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Koen G > 30-07-2020, 10:42 PM
(30-07-2020, 10:15 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, you can use that kind of word repetition to make any word plural in old Turkish. Which of the old European languages has such a characteristic seen? If you only think about this particular issue of diversity and frequency in this respect, you would not even want to compare with English. No way.
-JKP- > 30-07-2020, 10:45 PM
Quote:Anyway, I can't see any German text or word in VMS. So, It is not a third language as you assume, but may be it is the text with similar (but little different) alphabet in other Turkish dialect.
MarcoP > 31-07-2020, 04:44 AM
(30-07-2020, 09:26 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am currently focusing on reading new sentences in my spare time and I am ignoring the shortcomings temporarily.
Aga Tentakulus > 31-07-2020, 07:10 AM
MarcoP > 31-07-2020, 09:18 AM
(31-07-2020, 07:10 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is the small clues that make it so difficult to believe that it is Turkish.
Example:
Why is the Latin alphabet used when in the Eastern Roman Empire, Greek was normal.
Quote:It consist of two parts. The first part consists of a dictionary in Latin, Persian and Cuman written in the Latin alphabet, and a column with Cuman verbs, names and pronouns with its meaning in Latin. The second part consists, Cuman-German dictionary, information about the Cuman grammar, and poems belonging to Petrarch.
Stephen Bax Wrote:the language in the VM could be borrowed in part from Indo-European languages such as Latin, and could be acting in part as an Abjad, like Arabic and other Semitic scripts, the underlying language could nevertheless be from a completely different language family again, such as Turkic.