(17-08-2019, 07:31 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The g is a bit regional. Sometimes it has a long upper stem, sometimes a long tail, sometimes a looped tail. It varies more than a lot of letters.
JP, Though I have no doubt that the words
agolb, yaubva, vaubua (on the back of the Doornenburg sigil) are valid, it is unknown if those three words (in isolation on the back) were engraved circa 1600 or centuries earlier.
For that reason, if possible, I would welcome seeing the image of a medieval "g" that resembles the "g" of "agolb" (it's the "g" on the left side from my prior post). If you have such an image, it would be much appreciated if you could kindly post it. Thanks.
(17-08-2019, 08:10 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the VMS, folio 42 is marked by the singular overwrite of an image and folio 72 (flip side) is marked by a double bar (from the alphabet line) pretending to be the number 11 and this is followed by the initials of michel nostradamus. That page also has a macron, octēbre, where October happens to be the only month directly named in the VMS prophecies.
Note the 30 splits into two 15's, and that folio 42 plus 15 equals 57 (our macron folio) plus another 15 takes us to folio 72.
In conclusion, I think the figure on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is deliberately ambiguous, intending to simultaneously represent the letter "g" and a ל with macron.
It's not pretending to be the number 11. It is the number 11. It is a quire number. It's in the right position and order and folio to be a quire number, an instruction to the binder. The other quire numbers are there also. There's one that may have been trimmed off (sometimes quire numbers are partially or fully trimmed during binding). But the quire numbers are orderly and I doubt that any of them relate to numerology.
(18-08-2019, 01:26 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (17-08-2019, 08:10 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the VMS, folio 42 is marked by the singular overwrite of an image and folio 72 (flip side) is marked by a double bar (from the alphabet line) pretending to be the number 11 and this is followed by the initials of michel nostradamus. That page also has a macron, octēbre, where October happens to be the only month directly named in the VMS prophecies.
Note the 30 splits into two 15's, and that folio 42 plus 15 equals 57 (our macron folio) plus another 15 takes us to folio 72.
In conclusion, I think the figure on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is deliberately ambiguous, intending to simultaneously represent the letter "g" and a ל with macron.
It's not pretending to be the number 11. It is the number 11. It is a quire number. It's in the right position and order and folio to be a quire number, an instruction to the binder. The other quire numbers are there also. There's one that may have been trimmed off (sometimes quire numbers are partially or fully trimmed during binding). But the quire numbers are orderly and I doubt that any of them relate to numerology.
JP, Do you agree that the 11 is followed by the letters mn? Well, I'm still waiting for you to explain what the mn means. Is it a standard Latin abbreviation of something? I don't see those letters following any of the other quire numbers? If you could kindly explain the mn, and if your explanation is credible, your argument would be much stronger.
I'm pretty sure that the VMS page numbers and the VMS quire numbers were all prearranged because the marginalia is making use of them for cryptographic purposes. This raises doubts as to the validity of the quire numbers. Has anyone ever taken the VMS apart to confirm that all the quire numbers are at the end of real quires? In the very least there appears to be little regularity on quire size so purposeful manipulation seems quite plausible.
(18-08-2019, 05:10 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's an ordinal number. It's 11m9 .
The superscript is normal. It means 11th (like we add the "th" part in English). Like this 11th
The other quire numbers have it also. The 11 is no different from the other quire numbers.
The "9" at the end is the Latin abbreviation for "-us" So you have primus, secondus, tertius, etc. Sometimes it is n9 or m9 at the end as in septi[mus].
Thanks, JP. I view getting it right as a much better objective than winning a debate.
![[Image: img-vms-quire-mn-9.jpg]](http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/img-vms-quire-mn-9.jpg)
From what I saw, the "n" of "11mn" (second image) had a left hook just like another letter "n" (third image) but unlike the shorthand "9" (first and last images). Thus, I was forced to conclude that the last character of the page 72 quire number was an "n" pretending to be a "9". My guess is that you never encountered anything like the Rosicrucians in your medieval studies. They did a lot of pretending.
I've done lots of reading on the Rosicrucians, and the Masons, and the Theosophists, and Edgar Cayce, and Nostradamus, and Edward Kelley, and anyone who is remotely weird, different, unusually intelligent, or interesting in other ways.
I don't think anyone was hiding anything in the quire numbers. I think that's your imagination talking. I think it's just a messy 9, probably added by the bookbinder's assistant or the person who acquired the VMS and wanted to get it bound. It is overall consistent with the other quire numbers and it doesn't really look like the tail-n on 116v. The stroke order is different.
(18-08-2019, 11:37 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've done lots of reading on the Rosicrucians, and the Masons, and the Theosophists, and Edgar Cayce, and Nostradamus, and Edward Kelley, and anyone who is remotely weird, different, unusually intelligent, or interesting in other ways.
I don't think anyone was hiding anything in the quire numbers. I think that's your imagination talking. I think it's just a messy 9, probably added by the bookbinder's assistant or the person who acquired the VMS and wanted to get it bound. It is overall consistent with the other quire numbers and it doesn't really look like the tail-n on 116v. The stroke order is different.
I guess you're saying that is merely coincidental that the author of the quire numbers picked the wrong place to be "messy". For my part, I see little difference between my use of the phrase "pretending to be" and your use of the word "messy".
The tail-n of You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. comes on the same line as the word "mich" which I take to be a truncation of "michel". Thus, I view the alleged "mn" of the quire number as wishing to allude to michel nostradamus. That makes sense for folio 72 as the 72 divine names are apparently crucial for decoding the prophecies.
You've been insinuating that the VMS was diligently prepared for binding by a professional bookbinder. I haven't read that elsewhere. To me, the composition and arrangement of quires in the VMS looks quite messy, supporting my view that someone arranged the pages and quires so that certain specific content would appear with the desired numbers.
I haven't seen a lot of medieval manuscripts but I have seen a few, and I can't recall quire numbers in any of those manuscripts though I admit I was not looking for them. Are quire numbers, especially ones that look like the VMS quire numbers, commonly seen and equally visible in other medieval manuscripts?
The words on the bottom-right are German, and "mich" is an extremely common word for "me". The reason we have a hard time interpreting it is because the grammar is strange. A native German speaker might use those words, but would put them in a different order.
German grammar is hard for some people, if they come from languages where the verb is at the beginning. In German, it is often at the end (not 100% of the time, but frequently).
In English, we say, "I can understand that." In German, they say, "I can that understand." Quite a few of my classmates never could wrap their brains around this fairly simple concept and they gave up and dropped out or switched to Spanish or French.
Some of the Holy Roman emperors chose German as the official language (rather than Latin) which means that people traveling to the capital to seek patronage or to conduct business were forced to use a language many of them didn't know. I sometimes wonder if this is what happened with the VMS. It's a mixture of Latin (which most scholars learned) and Romance and German (which many scholars did not know, since they learned Latin as the lingua franca and thus were more likely to choose a Romance language if they learned another one, because they are similar to Latin).
(18-08-2019, 11:37 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The stroke order is different.
JP, I think you self-destruct with that remark!
If the intention were to write a "9", one would almost certainly begin by drawing a curve from the top right. That would make a sudden left hook inexplicable unless, of course, if the writer had something like Parkinson's Disease (the shakes). But if that were the case, how are we to explain the perfect smoothness of all the other 9's?
In brief, the suggestion of an allusion to the letter "n" remains viable.
(18-08-2019, 11:29 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Some of the Holy Roman emperors chose German as the official language (rather than Latin) which means that people traveling to the capital to seek patronage or to conduct business were forced to use a language many of them didn't know. I sometimes wonder if this is what happened with the VMS. It's a mixture of Latin (which most scholars learned) and Romance and German (which many scholars did not know, since they learned Latin as the lingua franca and thus were more likely to choose a Romance language if they learned another one, because they are similar to Latin).
While in high school, I studied Latin for four years and German for three years, but later in life my interests turned toward a few of the Romance languages.
I see that a lot of different languages have been suggested as the underlying language of VMS encryption, from places located all over Europe and even a few from Asia. One language that I rarely see mentioned is English. Why's that? Why are you people so bias against English?
Did you know that, to an overwhelming degree, the VMS prophecies concern events that take place in countries where English is spoken?
Did you know that the principal magical texts that we are going to need to decode the VMS have ties to England? Indeed, they are collectively known as the "London manuscripts", and even the one currently located in Germany originally came from England.
Did you know that the Knights Templar, after having found the VMS prophecies beneath the ruins of Solomon's Temple, took them to England to get them translated into Latin, presumably so that they could read them? Just ask yourself: why would they take them to England for translation if those prophecies weren't in fact written in English?
Circa 1135 CE, the translator hired by the Knights Templar wrote: "Coegit me, Alexander, Lincoliensis episcopus, nobilitatis tuae dilectio prophetias Merlini de Britannico in Latinum transferre, antequam historiam perarassem, quam de gestis regum Britannorum inceperam."
So there you have it straight from the horse's mouth: the underlying language of the VMS prophecies (quire 20) is "Britannico"!
