The Voynich Ninja

On what page do you find an illustration on religious themes ...?

Try VMs f71r  -- White Aries -- a religious tradition starting before 1250 CE and continuing to the present day.

(27-01-2018, 11:02 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten St George,

nobody is arguing for any specific origin in this thread.
We are simply pointing out that your observations about various elements of the manuscript are erroneous.

Koen Gh's last image shows beyond doubt that the hole in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not shaped like a tapir. Seriously, just look at it.

As for the star count, even if you discount the smaller star, that still leaves 162 red stars, not 161. And keep in mind that there are two folios missing, so I reiterate that there were probably even more red stars originally, since there are between 5-10 red stars on every other page of Q20.

What we are carrying out in this thread is the closest thing you will get to a proper peer review of your writings on the Voynich.
Nobody has discussed your conclusions about origins here, because before we even get to those, we are providing you with a fact-check of the observations which your theory is founded upon.
As it turns out, several of these are simply incorrect.

On the tapir, I have modified my web page as follows:

DEPICTION

"This bizarre cutout at the end of the section on herbal medicine (folio 102v) is in the form of a South American tapir (also known as the Brazilian tapir), a large mammal never seen in Europe during medieval times.

PHOTO

"The skin of this animal is too thick for fine leather but is used to make items like saddles for horses and durable sandals for humans. It would also have been the ideal material to make vials for mixing and mashing the diverse herbs into medicinal concoctions as well as for storing them. The optical illusion of a tapir in the manuscript might not be accidental."

Do you know by whom the quire numbers were put into the manuscript? I can't remember.

On the stars, I am not counting the red star on the top of folio 105r. Unlike all the other red stars, it is not placed to the left of any script. Instead, it is placed on top of a single word that is crossed-out. Neither the crossed-up word nor the first word below it begins with a glyph that resembles the glyph with which all red star passages on that page begin. Conclusion: that red star is only a "continuation" indicator and does not mark the beginning of a new recipe.

Based on the Prophetiae Merlini, a commentary on the recipes written around 1135, I would estimate there could be as many as a hundred pages of recipes missing from the manuscript. I'm guessing that they decided to retain only the recipes that were translated and published.

[attachment=1914 Wrote:R. Sale pid='18974' dateline='1517094671']On what page do you find an illustration on religious themes ...?

Try VMs f71r  -- White Aries -- a religious tradition starting before 1250 CE and continuing to the present day.

Also, I think I saw a cross at the top of folio 79v, but I was mainly referring to the "illuminated manuscripts" produced by monks around the time the VMS was compiled. I see no resemblances. The VMS does not come from the same world.

BTW, who wrote "abrival" (surely meaning April) below the ram?

[attachment=1914]

I found that word in Google:

e l'almugaver, quel veu venir tot abrival vers ell, lexal se acostar, e trames li la scona als pits dels cavall, si que li'n mes be dos palms entre los pits e la espalla;

Looks like Catalan.

"BTW, who wrote "abrival" (surely meaning April) below the ram?"


That's not a "v", no one wrote v like that in medieval Gothic cursive. And there's no "a" at the end. Look at the "a" at the beginning, how big and round it is.

It's aberil. There's no dot on the i at the end, which is quite common. It was frequently omitted.

Inserting the subscripted shape after the "b" was common. It stands for a missing letter.


There's a small possibility that it's abiril, but it's less likely as the dots on "i" were never drawn like a "c" or "e" shape.

So aberil or abiril and yes, it means April.


Who wrote it? The handwriting and ink do not match anything else in the VMS and it is disrespectfully written over parts of the drawings, so probably a later addition (marginalia). The style of the writing and form of abbreviations are consistent with handwriting from the 15th and very early 16th centuries.

(28-01-2018, 08:22 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."BTW, who wrote "abrival" (surely meaning April) below the ram?"


That's not a "v", no one wrote v like that in medieval Gothic cursive. And there's no "a" at the end. Look at the "a" at the beginning, how big and round it is.

It's aberil. There's no dot on the i at the end, which is quite common. It was frequently omitted.

Inserting the subscripted shape after the "b" was common. It stands for a missing letter.


There's a small possibility that it's abiril, but it's less likely as the dots on "i" were never drawn like a "c" or "e" shape.

So aberil or abiril and yes, it means April.


Who wrote it? The handwriting and ink do not match anything else in the VMS and it is disrespectfully written over parts of the drawings, so probably a later addition (marginalia). The style of the writing and form of abbreviations are consistent with handwriting from the 15th and very early 16th centuries.

Since you are unable to say when and by whom the Latin names of months were entered in, I fail to see how you can claim that it cannot include the letter v. I see words like "vn" in early publications and that must have come from a handwritten manuscript. Most of all, I think it important that the interpretation of the handwriting be made to comply with word spellings that really existed, which you fail to mention for abirel and abiril. In contrast, abril, abrial and abrival are real words.

Several month names are written in the Latin alphabet inside the VMS. I was able to associate one or more of them with the Occitan, Provencal, Catalan, and French languages. However, I could not associate any of them with Italian. How do you wish to explain that considering that everyone is claiming that the VMS was born in Italy and lived most of its life in Italy?

BTW, by my theories, it is also impossible for these month names to be "handwriting from the 15th and very early 16th centuries" as you claim because during that time frame the VMS lived in Peru. The handwriting is likely post 1584, when it arrived in Europe, though the possibility of written in Peru after 1533 cannot be ruled out.

(27-01-2018, 11:23 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.OK, so you replied to me with a response to somebody else, but no matter.
Let us check the link you put to me, namely the Shakespeare correspondence to Nostradamus (and I still can't quite understand how we get from there to the Voynich, but hey).

You say, in your very first example:

Quote:Nostradamus:
L'oiseau royal sur la cité solaire,
Sept moys deuant fera nocturne augure:
Mur d'Orient, cherra tonnerre esclaire,
Sept iours aux portes les ennemis à l'heure [1, V-81].
The royal bird over the city of the Sun, Seven months beforehand shall make nocturnal augury, The wall of the Orient shall fall, thunder illuminated, Seven days to the ports the enemies to the hour [168 hours?]. Note the Frenchification of the Latin "portis" (dative case), which can mean either gates or seaports. Later we will encounter a clarification: "port," seaport, in unambiguous context.
Shakespeare:
Ham. Not a whit, we defy augury; there's a special providence in the fall of a sparrow [2, Ham.].
Shakespeare:
And with my hand at midnight held your head;
And, like the watchful minutes to the hour [2, Jn.].
Theophilus de Garencières, who made the first English translation of the Nostradamus prophecies in 1672, tells us "By the Royal Bird is meant an Eagle" [3], but Shakespeare considers other possibilities, here the sparrow. However, it is the word fall that seals the correlation. Note that Nostradamus uses fall in the sense of the fall of an empire and Shakespeare uses it to refer to the descent of a bird, but nevertheless the terms equate for the purpose at hand.

I'm sorry, but you can't pick two random examples out of the Shakespearean corpus and use them to justify a link to Nostradamus - it's ridiculous. They aren't even from the same play. And they don't even correspond in the least to the Nostradamus prediction you quote. 

BTW, the sparrow quotation is actually a reference to the Bible, King James version.

Sorry, it's all too ridiculous for me, I'm out.

Your software would not allow me to respond to your post. I was taken to a message saying I was unauthorized to do so, and I thought I had been banned from this discussion group. That would not be something new for me: a few years ago I was banned from a Yahoo! Group called the Nostradamus Research Group. But your software did allow me to respond to someone else.

For the moment, I think it best that we concentrate on whether or not the Voynich script translates into the French text, not on whether of not the French text has any worth for what it says.

My sole contribution to decoding theory is based on the title star alignment and can be outlined as follows:

Voynichese to Latin Theory 



This is theorized to correspond to five consecutive red-star passages from

FOLIO 106r

Lines 8 & 9 (mini star title marker)     

porarchy oror olkaiin Shedy oteedy qotor qoteedo qoteedy dair okeedaim 
ychor chol qokain chocPhol lchedy qocheo qokar 
Words 17  Characters 117

Legis cantio contra ineptos criticos.
Words 5  Characters 37

Lines 13 & 14 (1st verse)

pcheol Sheokaiin otey qokeeor Sheo aiin otchey pcheo ror aiin daiin opal 
ychol okaiin olcheey dolchedy otais otal chedy okeor 
Words 20  Characters 125

Quos legent hosce versus mature censunto,
Words 6  Characters 41

Lines 18 to 21 (2nd verse)
kShed dSheol qokeedy otol okeedy lkeedar Sheopchy qopchy qotolchy qoty chdy 
otchedy qokeey Shosaiinqokaiin okain cholkeeey ltal olcheey qotchoraiin y 
ytaiin cheey qokaiin Shaiin qokeedy sail chedy cheodal qochedy qokaiin 
olkeedy qokchedy cheo lkeedy chearaiin okain 
Words 36  Characters 265

Profanum vulgus & inscium ne attrectare,
Words 6  Characters 40 (or 44 if & = atque)

Lines 24 to 26 (3rd verse)
podShedy qokchedy lkechor otchodar cho lky chedar otaiin chkchedaram 
soraiin cheeo lo lchey qokaiin Shedy okain Shear qokain chees ykarain 
ycheeo lkeey 
Words 22  Characters 151

Omnesque Astrelogi, Blennis’ Barbari procul sunto,
Words 6  Characters 50

Lines 32 & 33 (4th verse)
poral Sho keeody qokain chcKhy olteeedy qopches al karchy qotedary 
ycheol chokaiin Sheody chody qokaiin ar akair aiir okaly 
Words 19  Characters 123

Qui aliter facit, irrite sacer esto.
Words 6  Characters 36

OBSERVATION:

The count for words and characters of the Voynich script bear a similar ratio to the corresponding words and characters of the Latin text. This applies to each verse individually. Although the Latin word counts tend to be stable at six, their character lengths differ, and Voynich script varies in character length accordingly. I think it would be foolish of you guys not to look into this.

Morten, that Catalan scene you quote is about a lancer defeating an armored horseman. It does not contain a word for April.

(28-01-2018, 06:50 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, that Catalan scene you quote is about a lancer defeating an armored horseman. It does not contain a word for April.

I interpreted 'quel veu venir tot abrival vers ell' as saying something like 'which or who seen to come toward him every April,' but I could be wrong. Therefore, what do you think the word "abrival" means in that context? I think it, based on the Catalan abril, could be meant to refer to the springtime or the beginning of Spring, quite appropriate for a zodiac sign that runs from Mar 21 to Apr 20.

The text you quote is in nonstandard spelling, normally it should be abriva'l, from the verb abriva + a personal pronoun (it's not uncommon for personal pronouns to be stuck to verbs, this is called an enclitic in linguistics).

Abrivar-se means something like "to speed up, to rush". No months involved. This is found after five minutes of googling, I know nothing about Catalan.

Quote: e l'almugaver, quel veu venir tot abrival vers ell, lexal se acostar, e trames li la scona als pits dels cavall, si que li'n mes be dos palms entre los pits e la espalla;

From Choix de chroniques et mémoires sur l'histoire, Volume 3
Bad spelling doesn't help the translation of this passage. The word is not "abrival" in the original text but "abrivat". Means spontaneous, intrepid.

I translate it as:
and the Knight, who sees them all coming headfast towards him, (prepares his lance?), and puts his heels into the sides of his horse, without there being more than two handspans between his breastplate and the sword;

April, in modern Catalan, is Abril. We've been over this elsewhere, the etymology doesn't allow us to fix a location, most Romance languages (actually, most European languages - even Basque!) use a variant upon the original Latin Aprīlis.

Quote: Your software would not allow me to respond to your post. I was taken to a message saying I was unauthorized to do so, and I thought I had been banned from this discussion group. That would not be something new for me: a few years ago I was banned from a Yahoo! Group called the Nostradamus Research Group. But your software did allow me to respond to someone else.

Strange, your session must have timed out or something. You haven't broken any rules or incurred any warnings so no ban of any type exists for you.