(29-03-2019, 04:26 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would agree that the use of this plant as a basis for american origin of the vms is problematic for that reason. The sunflower idea is even more problematic since there is even less agreement as to the genus of the plant, not to mention species.
Even worse, botanists have identified two distinct VMS drawings as sunflowers: the ones on You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. and the one on f93r. Though both drawings are to some degree inaccurate, my point is that the artist likely had sight of a real sunflower at some point in his or her life, from where he or she drew inspiration. In other words, those drawings were more likely to have been made in the Americas than in Europe.
I don't want to run down botanists, but most of them do NOT have a familiarity with medieval iconography. They had certain ways of doing things in the Middle Ages that are not apparent or familiar to modern eyes. It takes time to learn them.
(29-03-2019, 04:57 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (29-03-2019, 03:47 PM)Aldis Mengelsons Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I respect your way of thinking and also i ask for somebody's help...even you...about page 57v. Full translate like few ten others is in my FB page "Alex BC" Voynich Manuscript. Where was a true reason to make that kinda language which even can be read by my kids but in the very same time cannot be read by computers? Religions? I don't know....i just stuck...no ideas
Aldis, i realize you were asking Morten, but if i may make a suggestion, maybe you could start a new thread of your own, and tell us in a very detailed way exactly how you and your kids read these words, since until others can understand your method, it is difficult for anyone to help or comment in any way. I have seen quite a few of your tranlations but i still dont see your method. Maybe you could put pictures or use the font to show which words are which so we can question you further on your results thus far and gain insight into how to do it ourselves, if this is possible. Then perhaps there is a chance we can assist you in going forward. I would like to see a short clear example, like show us which line you are translating, then tell us what letters correspond to what language, ie each step you take in reading it and translating it to English for us. Kind of like how Geoffrey goes through each step of his translations, i find that very useful even though i dont know the languages he is dealing with so i dont have too much to go by as yet. Some of us may not be able to follow along if the languages involved are not familiar to us, so teach us like we are very new to it.
Linda, Thanks for responding to Aldis for me on this matter. I was in a bit of a quandary on what to say: I am skeptical on his topic but want to remain open to new ideas. You gave him excellent advice.
(29-03-2019, 05:29 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't want to run down botanists, but most of them do NOT have a familiarity with medieval iconography. They had certain ways of doing things in the Middle Ages that are not apparent or familiar to modern eyes. It takes time to learn them.
Cited by Koen in his blog:
Quote:"In their method of construction, the plant pictures in the manuscript show they are not related to the western tradition in herbals."
They don't follow the western herbal tradition. There were certain specific plants drawn in specific ways in specific sequences and the VMS doesn't match up with those. That doesn't mean they are not western, it just means that they don't follow the cookie-cutter mold of the common herbals with which we are familiar.
It must be said that I was quoting Diane there. I'd personally not put it as strongly as "not related".. but JKP explains it very well.
It's quite easy to say what the VM is not. It's not a standard herbal. And it's definitely not American.
(29-03-2019, 06:07 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda, Thanks for responding to Aldis for me on this matter. I was in a bit of a quandary on what to say: I am skeptical on his topic but want to remain open to new ideas. You gave him excellent advice.
I am glad you think so, and thank you for saying that. I remain skeptical as well but i am curious as to the method.
(29-03-2019, 05:27 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even worse, botanists have identified two distinct VMS drawings as sunflowers: the ones on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the one on f93r. Though both drawings are to some degree inaccurate, my point is that the artist likely had sight of a real sunflower at some point in his or her life, from where he or she drew inspiration. In other words, those drawings were more likely to have been made in the Americas than in Europe.
I can think of other american plants that more closely resemble You are not allowed to view links.
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At least with You are not allowed to view links.
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(29-03-2019, 07:14 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[I can think of other american plants that more closely resemble You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. than a sunflower. How do you equate it to a sunflower?
At least with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. i can see where the idea comes from.
The flower on You are not allowed to view links.
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The flower on You are not allowed to view links.
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Have you found a plant native to Europe that resembles the sunflower? If so, please point me to a picture of it.
(29-03-2019, 06:44 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's quite easy to say what the VM is not. It's not a standard herbal. And it's definitely not American.
Fantasy plants are virtually impossible to place geographically, but for sure neither the armadillo nor the pangolin are native to Europe. Sunflowers and the white water lily lend more support to the armadillos of America than to the pangolins of Africa and Asia where the water lily flowers tend to assume colors other than white.