The Voynich Ninja

Many people have tried to reconcile the VMS "star" pages with star names (including me). In fact, I made a concerted effort to find what they were called in the 10th to 15th centuries (and how they were spelled) and carefully recorded these from manuscripts from a number of different countries.

The problem is, the star section "labels" are too repetitious (and in many cases too short) to correspond with medieval star names or other cosmological nomenclature, at least when seen from the perspective of simple substitution.

(21-02-2019, 10:02 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Many people have tried to reconcile the VMS "star" pages with star names (including me). In fact, I made a concerted effort to find what they were called in the 10th to 15th centuries (and how they were spelled) and carefully recorded these from manuscripts from a number of different countries.

The problem is, the star section "labels" are too repetitious (and in many cases too short) to correspond with medieval star names or other cosmological nomenclature, at least when seen from the perspective of simple substitution.

Sorry, JP, I think I led you badly astray. By the "stars" section I was referring to the "recipes" (text) at the back of the manuscript where all the paragraphs begin with stars functioning as bullets. I do not like to use the word "recipes" which I consider nonsensical. Contrary to popular belief, the VMS is not a cookbook.

In my opinion, the astronomical, astrological and cosmological sections of the VMS were originally written in Latin or one of the Romance languages such as Spanish or Occitan (in each case using the Latin alphabet),  and what we see there today is a translation into a native American language (now using the encoding glyphs of the stars section). They simply copied the original drawings and changed the corresponding text to the Indian language. The drawings were made first.

One of my reasons for believing it's all a translation is that the decoding mechanism seems to function on longer strings of text (for maneuvering around the wheels) and hence may not apply to short labels. 

A few years ago a neighbor of mine talked me into accompanying her to a Sunday service at a Protestant church. They had a large screen on which they put up the words of songs and of scriptures to a backdrop of pretty celestial scenes and landscapes including fields of flowers. The displayed text, of course, had nothing to do with those flowers.

I now view the botanical sections of the VMS in the same light. I no longer see the VMS as a catalog of local plants as I once did. The text alongside the plants is more likely than not to be text for teaching their religion against a backdrop of intriguing plant drawings and the text is probably not describing those plants at all.

This does not apply to the pharmaceutical section as native Americans are known to have been big on herbal medicine, so we are more likely to see real plants there.

The VMS predates the expansion of the Aztec empire which forced all conquered peoples to adopt their language. Thus, there's a chance that the VMS language (if from Mexico and not further north) became extinct even before the arrival of Spanish and may never be recovered.

(21-02-2019, 02:00 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm wondering if you could kindly let us know what type of architecture we see in this VMS image:



In what country could we expect to see an edifice that looks like that prior to the year 1250?

Turkey







I hope you and JKP dont mind me interjecting, i couldnt resist. I think Diane put me onto Cappadoccia. To me, all the stratified blue blobs in the manuscript are different kinds of rocks.

I think the teepee is a volcano. The circles likely mean the rock is porphyritic, ie has little pieces of crystals mixed in a finer comglomerate, or that it is porous. 





Thank you for equating the Cappadoccia caves with the other structures, i hadn't considered them in that way, had always been thinking of the geology. I can't equate the volcano as such though, other than it has buried many structures. We take from the land to make our stone structures, the land sometimes takes them back. The teepee idea is nice as an example of a different type of building, but i don't think this is an example thereof, although there do seem to be tentlike structures depicted.

I agree that some of the textures look like the rock formations in Turkey. They are quite distinctive (and very beautiful). I have wanted to see that region for a long time.

(22-02-2019, 03:54 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(21-02-2019, 02:00 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm wondering if you could kindly let us know what type of architecture we see in this VMS image:



In what country could we expect to see an edifice that looks like that prior to the year 1250?

Turkey

I hope you and JKP dont mind me interjecting, i couldnt resist. I think Diane put me onto Cappadoccia. To me, all the stratified blue blobs in the manuscript are different kinds of rocks.

I think the teepee is a volcano. The circles likely mean the rock is porphyritic, ie has little pieces of crystals mixed in a finer comglomerate, or that it is porous. 

Hi Linda,

Nice to see someone else commenting in this thread. It was starting to get a little boring with just me and JP. Other opinions are always welcome.

For the first edifice, besides Russian-like tower tops, I'm looking for lots of ground level arches which I'm not seeing in those Turkish depictions. I see at least one aspect of the edifice in Moorish, Indo-Islamic, Byzantine and Slavic architecture but a lot of the available depictions aren't old enough. Per my theories, that edifice has to be 13th century or earlier. Someone should know the answer to this. The heretic sect in question is believed to have originated in Bulgaria and then migrated across western Europe but converts to their religion could have come from almost anywhere.

For the alleged tepee, I see that the Mexican proponents claim that it is a smoking volcano; in fact, they even claim to have identified the specific volcano in question which, of course, is a bunch of nonsense. The bulges on the sides strongly suggest a tepee unless we envision souls (the circles) trying to escape their container, banging up against the sides and thereby creating the bulges. The alleged crisscrossed logs (note that smoke tends to blow only in one direction at a time)  would then be indicating nothing more than where souls are squirting out to enter another realm.

In general, I find that the VMS does a good job in separating Old World stuff from New World stuff. Thus, I have to agree with JP on this one: it's most likely not a tepee nor a volcano.

(21-02-2019, 08:03 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I grew up with teepees. They don't look like that. 

JP,  I don't know if you saw my last post (a response to Linda) but I have conceded on this point. Your arguments did not convince me. What convinced me was a careful look around other parts of the Rosettes pages where I noticed crisscrossed lines in a non-tepee context as well as lots of little circles more so in the context of a funnel than lodging.

I'm currently viewing VMS pages written in the Currier Language B as initially written by the European migrants to the Americas and VMS pages written in the Currier Language A as written by native American converts making use of the VMS glyphs to represent their own language.

It remains an open question as to whether all of Language B represents the encoding of an Old World language. Beyond the recipes section containing the sacred text of their religion, there appears to little need to employ encoding which was surely a laborious task perhaps not worth the effort to protect material that didn't need protection. Upon copying the European drawings to conserve them, the accompanying text may have been converted into something understandable to the native Americans.

(22-02-2019, 05:59 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(21-02-2019, 08:03 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I grew up with teepees. They don't look like that. 

JP,  I don't know if you saw my last post (a response to Linda) but I have conceded on this point. Your arguments did not convince me. What convinced me was a careful look around other parts of the Rosettes pages where I noticed crisscrossed lines in a non-tepee context as well as lots of little circles more so in the context of a funnel than lodging.

...

When I say they don't look like teepees, I don't just mean they don't look like teepees (as I would expect to see them). I mean that they don't look like teepees AFTER LOOKING AT THE ENTIRE MANUSCRIPT FOR MANY YEARS and becoming familiar with HOW the VMS illustrator draws certain things. In other words, when taken in CONTEXT, they don't look like teepees.

I didn't really give any arguments about why I don't think they are teepees, because it would take about two hours of my time and twenty screen clips to explain it. I don't have that much free time.

(22-02-2019, 11:51 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I didn't really give any arguments about why I don't think they are teepees, because it would take about two hours of my time and twenty screen clips to explain it. I don't have that much free time.

I feel exactly the same way about my made-in-the-Americas theory for the VMS. I have online nearly a hundred web pages directly or indirectly supporting different aspects of that theory and, unless someone asks specific questions, the theory is not going to advance very far in this forum.

(25-09-2018, 09:48 AM)Paris Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Morten St. George,

I'm french and I know very well Nostradamus.

Allow me to write that you made a mistake (as many others) with the translation of the word "Seline".

This word is a false friend.

I know that "sel" in french means "salt" in english.

But Seline doesn't mean salty.
Salty is translated by "saline" in french.

Seline refers to the Moon.
The greek etymology of Seline is Séléné, sister of Helios (the Sun).

...

I hope that I changed your mind about Selin.
Selin refers to the moon and not to the salt.

Paris, A recent update to one of my essays bears relevance to your observations so I will post it:

«««

ON EXPANDING THE ROSETTA STONE

In the published output of the 16th century, the thirty-nine prophecies of Solomon were grouped (in quantities of 9, 15, 15) into three great spheres called Keter, Hokhmah and Binah, respectively. Among these thirty-nine prophecies, thirty-two were determined to be Paths of Wisdom and then divided into the six directions of space as follows: above {1}, below {6}, east {5}, west {5}, south {5} and north {10}. Below and north (the last three "Centuries" of Nostradamus) combined to form the inferior world and the others formed the superior world.

Prophecy V-35 above, the prophecy of our Rosetta Stone, is no ordinary prophecy because it is the first stanza of the "west" group. On f104r, V-35 occupies lines marked by the four fully-colored red stars with tails. There are no more such stars after that because toward the bottom of the page the full-red stars are transitioned into stars with red dots. Page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has full red stars but they have no tails. Only You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has full red stars with tails and there are no other pages with full red stars. Logically, therefore, V-35 has to be preceded by the last four full red stars with tails on f108r. And now we must ask: which Solomon prophecy preceded V-35 in the original prophetic work?


 
Here we see the first line of prophecy V-35 preceded by the last line of stanza V-34 which begins saying by wine, and salt. Note that the "sel", salt, of V-34 obliges us to translate, in this particular instance, the "Seline" of V-35 as salty rather than as crescent. Let's now look at the last prophecy (and also the last stanza) of the "below" group, numbered IX-49:


 
Note the words "sel & vin", salt and wine, in the third line, which effectively draws this prophecy to V-35 via the last line of V-34. In other words, chances are good that where the tails come to an end after each of the last four full red-colored stars on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are the four lines that convert into prophecy IX-49. Note also that V-35 and IX-49 stand at either the beginning or ending of a direction of space and thus would mark a point of transition between the inferior and superior worlds.

Of course, if You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. really holds prophecy IX-49, it would effectively double the size of our Rosetta Stone. But here the lines begin with glyphs different from what we saw for V-35 and therefore the underlying language may not be Spanish. Latin merits consideration, also Old English which in the 12th century was claimed to be an original language of the prophecies ("de Britannico in Latinum transferre").
...

»»»

Morten St. George,

To be complete with salt and wine, you can add the century X.7

"Le grand conflit qu'on appreste à Nancy,
L'Aemathien dira tout je soubmets,
L'isle Britanne par vin, sel en solcy,
Hem. mi. deux phi. long temps ne tiendra Metz."

The same century in english :
"The great conflict that they are preparing for Nancy,
The Aemathien will say I subjugate all.
The British Isle in anxiety over wine and salt,
Hem. mi. Philip two Metz will not be held for long."

The aemathien refers to the french king Louis XIV (1638 - 1715) also called the Sun King.

The century IX.49:
"...The Senate of London will put to death their King.
Salt and wine will overthrow him ...."
This century refers obviously to the death of Charles the first, King of England (deand on january 30th 1649).


We can remark the same terms (wine and salt / salt and wine) refer to the same period of time (middle of seventeenth century). I never noticed that. That's a strange coincidence.


But I'm not sure there is a link with the Voynich manuscript.
If that can help you in your researchs, I'm happy with that.