The Voynich Ninja

(24-09-2019, 01:29 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. everyone seems to think is a sunflower f93r

I'd replace "everyone" with "a few theorists" in that sentence 

(24-09-2019, 01:29 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If the carbon dating of the VMS is from 1402-1435 the Cathars were already gone. And the Jews were not exiled from Spain until around 1492 heading to the Americas, so it is a different unknown dialect before the fall of Constantinople. The flower page where everyone seems to think is a sunflower You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is actually a King Protea and used to gather nectar for making a honey syrup for making cakes.

It seems that everyone these days wishes to ignore the research and findings of VMS pioneer Prescott Currier who declared "It must be a copying job."

In other words, the carbon dating you mention might only be dating a copy (the Beinecke manuscript) of earlier writings. No one knows for sure when Voynichese script was invented. It could have been hundreds of years earlier.

In MSG Theory, the Merkabah wheels seen on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. link to the first Sigillum Dei which in turn inspired the Sworn Book of medieval magic (as a means for propagating encryption secrets). I'd refer you to an essay by Robert Mathiesen entitled "A Thirteenth-Century Ritual ..." which dates the Sworn Book to the first half of the 13th century.

The 13th century was when we first encounter historical records of the Revelations of Elijah (another name for the VMS prophecies), an alleged work of divine revelation that elevated the status of women even to the point of incorporating feminine attributes into the Godhead.

Those Revelations could have augmented the attractiveness of Catharism, a religion that empowered women with equal rights, even the right to administer the rites of their religion. And I can imagine that a feeling of repulsion for the sheer brutality of the Roman Church and its Inquisition could have pushed others toward a religion of love. 

I once thought that the general lack of male depictions in the swamp scenes was because they had gone off hunting or something like that. I now think that the VMS depiction of 'boy chasing girl" could be only symbolic and that it was a group of women (no men) who assumed responsibility for salvaging the Revelations by daring to carry them across the Atlantic.

The Cathars did not all emigrate to North America. Catharism continued to exist in many parts of Europe until the mid-15th century. Even if it were Cathars that created the VMS (which is perfectly possible at the time), it doesn't mean it has anything to do with North America.

Blue and green water can mean many things, including hot or cold water, salt or fresh water, regular water or mineral water, or simply, "I'm almost out of blue pigment and I don't want to spend 3 hours grinding more so I'll use a higher proportion of green pigment."

The critters in the VMS are not drawn well enough to identify most of them. Plus, it was the custom at the time to draw many mythical animals  or "generic" animals that were not intended to be any particular animal. You can't assume what they are just because you want to place them in the context of a North American swamp. Besides, even if it were swamp water, there are swamps all over Europe too, including in some of the hotter regions.

(24-09-2019, 05:31 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(24-09-2019, 01:29 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. everyone seems to think is a sunflower f93r

I'd replace "everyone" with "a few theorists" in that sentence 

I checked out the sunflower myself and the inner core of the flower looks like a reasonable match. Though the plant as a whole is surely imaginary, one cannot rule out the possibility that the artist may have had sight of a real sunflower at some point in his or her life.

(24-09-2019, 08:48 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The critters in the VMS are not drawn well enough to identify most of them. Plus, it was the custom at the time to draw many mythical animals  or "generic" animals that were not intended to be any particular animal. You can't assume what they are just because you want to place them in the context of a North American swamp. Besides, even if it were swamp water, there are swamps all over Europe too, including in some of the hotter regions.

I've now received permission from the copyright owner (source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) to post his photo of the marsh deer in this forum:



I see similarities in the following areas:

1) the upright ears rising from the back of the head. Cows, sheep, goats, horses, donkeys, mules, etc do not have ears that look like that.

2) the black coloring of the lower legs seen in both depictions.

3) a short dark tail which in both cases extends from a protruding rear end.

Note that, in the VMS, this animal is depicted immediately above one of the naked swamp girls, that is, there is reason to suspect it's an animal that liked to live in or near swamps as is precisely the case with the marsh deer.

This might be a good time to have a second look at the armadillo, another animal that liked to live in or near swamps:



Right after I wrote for permission on the marsh deer, I noticed that the very same website had photos of armadillos that did not have ostentatious bands.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

It also has photos of armadillos rolled up into a ball, which the VMS armadillo seems to be in the process of doing. Many species of armadillo have become extinct in North America since medieval times and, like the marsh deer, a few of them still survive in South America.

Your counterclaim is that a scaly animal has been found to exist in central Africa and also in China. Since you have provided no evidence at all that such an animal was known in Europe during the Middle Ages, I view your counterclaim as sheer demagoguery, not as science.

In order to convince people on your Made-in-Europe theory, you really should provide a smoking gun, that is, you need to demonstrate that the pictorial content of the VMS reflects awareness of European history or European culture for the period ranging from 1244 CE (the date of destruction of the depicted fortress) to 1438 CE (the end of the radiocarbon range).

Examples of a smoking gun could include a depiction of the Black Death that wiped out half the population of Europe in the 14th century (indeed one might expect to see such a thing in a manuscript that includes a chapter on herbal medicine!), or perhaps a depiction of new European inventions like the gunpowder cannon, or even a depiction of any king or pope of that epoch. The lack of a smoking gun does not prove you wrong, but neither does it prove the Made-in-the-Americas theory to be wrong.

(25-09-2019, 02:24 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....


Your counterclaim is that a scaly animal has been found to exist in central Africa and also in China. Since you have provided no evidence at all that such an animal was known in Europe during the Middle Ages, I view your counterclaim as sheer demagoguery, not as science.


...

You seem to have a very selective memory.

I did not make a "counterclaim" in the sense of saying you are wrong and this is right, which is what your wording implies.

I have a LIST (which I have explained to you MANY times, in case you have forgotten) of possible IDs for the scaly animal. It's quite a long list, and it even includes a beaver, an aardvark, and a sheep (all with good reasons, as detailed in my blogs).

So don't talk about this as though I am pitting your idea against mine because I DON'T DO RESEARCH that way. Research is not a black and white endeavor, there are no predetermined signposts to tell you the right road to take, so I create lists of possibilities and then I study each one until I can determine whether there's enough evidence to support it, which is a process that can take many months or years.


The drawings are not good enough to definitely ID quite a few of the VMS animals (which is true of many medieval animal drawings). We can only know what they are by their context (and sometimes even that is not helpful, at least not yet).

(25-09-2019, 02:24 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(24-09-2019, 08:48 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The critters in the VMS are not drawn well enough to identify most of them. Plus, it was the custom at the time to draw many mythical animals  or "generic" animals that were not intended to be any particular animal. You can't assume what they are just because you want to place them in the context of a North American swamp. Besides, even if it were swamp water, there are swamps all over Europe too, including in some of the hotter regions.

I've now received permission from the copyright owner (source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) to post his photo of the marsh deer in this forum:



I see similarities in the following areas:

1) the upright ears rising from the back of the head. Cows, sheep, goats, horses, donkeys, mules, etc do not have ears that look like that.

2) the black coloring of the lower legs seen in both depictions.

3) a short dark tail which in both cases extends from a protruding rear end.

Note that, in the VMS, this animal is depicted immediately above one of the naked swamp girls, that is, there is reason to suspect it's an animal that liked to live in or near swamps as is precisely the case with the marsh deer.

This might be a good time to have a second look at the armadillo, another animal that liked to live in or near swamps:



Right after I wrote for permission on the marsh deer, I noticed that the very same website had photos of armadillos that did not have ostentatious bands.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

It also has photos of armadillos rolled up into a ball, which the VMS armadillo seems to be in the process of doing. Many species of armadillo have become extinct in North America since medieval times and, like the marsh deer, a few of them still survive in South America.

Your counterclaim is that a scaly animal has been found to exist in central Africa and also in China. Since you have provided no evidence at all that such an animal was known in Europe during the Middle Ages, I view your counterclaim as sheer demagoguery, not as science.

In order to convince people on your Made-in-Europe theory, you really should provide a smoking gun, that is, you need to demonstrate that the pictorial content of the VMS reflects awareness of European history or European culture for the period ranging from 1244 CE (the date of destruction of the depicted fortress) to 1438 CE (the end of the radiocarbon range).

Examples of a smoking gun could include a depiction of the Black Death that wiped out half the population of Europe in the 14th century (indeed one might expect to see such a thing in a manuscript that includes a chapter on herbal medicine!), or perhaps a depiction of new European inventions like the gunpowder cannon, or even a depiction of any king or pope of that epoch. The lack of a smoking gun does not prove you wrong, but neither does it prove the Made-in-the-Americas theory to be wrong.

The pangolin has a large You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. currently in Africa and Asia and would have had a much greater range 600 years ago it was known as " “Its English name comes from the Malay word “pengguling,” which means rolling ball; its Chinese name, chuanshanjia, refers to its supposed ability to “bore through mountains,” a reference to the powerful claws that dig into anthills “" good article on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

“The use of pangolins in Chinese medicine dates back thousands of years. A 16th-century document recommends eating their scales to reduce swelling, invigorate blood circulation and promote lactation. A 1938 article in Nature suggests they were used to treat malaria, deafness, “hysterical crying” in children and women possessed..."

And now the smoking gun   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. scales pronounced “[font=Arial, sans-serif]kas·keh'·seth” 
[/font]
chyrr = perforating/to make a hole
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Voynich definition “ugliness, ugliness strength form perforation scales “Kaz-chaz-chsz”[/font]

(25-09-2019, 02:38 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.“The use of pangolins in Chinese medicine dates back thousands of years. A 16th-century document recommends eating their scales to reduce swelling, invigorate blood circulation and promote lactation. A 1938 article in Nature suggests they were used to treat malaria, deafness, “hysterical crying” in children and women possessed..."

Marco Polo lived in China for 17 years. Does he mention pangolins in his chronicles? If so, please tell JP about it as it could strengthen his Made-in-Europe arguments.

In her An Elegant Enigma book about the VMS, d'Imperio twice cited the remarks of an eminent historian: "It is strange that the draftsman should have so completely escaped all medieval or Renaissance influence."

That remark, reiterated by other scholars years ago, should have raised alarm bells.

For my part, I found it hard to believe that the VMS authors could have seen illuminated manuscripts and not have been moved toward raising their manuscript to that higher level of elegance and beauty.

Maybe the answer is that the VMS authors never did see an illuminated manuscript? Maybe the swamp drawings are crude because they were made out in the wilds and not inside the hallways of a monastery? And, later, maybe their contact with European culture was largely restricted to blindly copying stuff they didn't understand?

But nobody is doubting that VMS encryption was a European creation, so that has to be the pathway to resolving the mysteries of the VMS. We need a more complete decoding: "Kaz-chaz-chsz" in and of itself may not be sufficient!

(25-09-2019, 07:29 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(25-09-2019, 02:38 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.“The use of pangolins in Chinese medicine dates back thousands of years. A 16th-century document recommends eating their scales to reduce swelling, invigorate blood circulation and promote lactation. A 1938 article in Nature suggests they were used to treat malaria, deafness, “hysterical crying” in children and women possessed..."

Marco Polo lived in China for 17 years. Does he mention pangolins in his chronicles? If so, please tell JP about it as it could strengthen his Made-in-Europe arguments.

In her An Elegant Enigma book about the VMS, d'Imperio twice cited the remarks of an eminent historian: "It is strange that the draftsman should have so completely escaped all medieval or Renaissance influence."

That remark, reiterated by other scholars years ago, should have raised alarm bells.

For my part, I found it hard to believe that the VMS authors could have seen illuminated manuscripts and not have been moved toward raising their manuscript to that higher level of elegance and beauty.

Maybe the answer is that the VMS authors never did see an illuminated manuscript? Maybe the swamp drawings are crude because they were made out in the wilds and not inside the hallways of a monastery? And, later, maybe their contact with European culture was largely restricted to blindly copying stuff they didn't understand?

But nobody is doubting that VMS encryption was a European creation, so that has to be the pathway to resolving the mysteries of the VMS. We need a more complete decoding: "Kaz-chaz-chsz" in and of itself may not be sufficient!

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  "Cabinets of curiosity in Europe almost all had pangolin skins in them in the 17th century, and pangolins had been traded around Asia and Africa for thousands of years. But the creatures these skins came from remained enigmatic. The first accounts of pangolins written by Europeans give a clue as to why….The first identifiable account of a pangolin in the field was in the [i]Itinerario[/i] (1597) of explorer, Jan Huyghen van Linschoten." 
good article.
Pangolins are also in India and probably had a larger range 600 years ago... You didn't need a Marco Polo and China trade to find out about them, as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. had similar medical usage for the scales. 


"

(25-09-2019, 08:06 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Pangolins are also in India and probably had a larger range 600 years ago... You didn't need a Marco Polo and China trade to find out about them, as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. had similar medical usage for the scales. 

Unlike armadillos, pangolins tend to have tails of enormous size, which is not reflected in the VMS drawing. It's really no contest: an armadillo has to be the better choice.

I imagine that, after the radiocarbon revelations, the sunflower people were forced to renounce their New World theories or else be subjected to public ridicule and possibly lose their jobs.

Well, I have no job to lose, so I will continue to speak truth to ignorance.