The Voynich Ninja

(28-02-2019, 02:28 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The fact that it has legs is IRRELEVANT to a conversation about which zodiacs have the largest number of figures that match the VMS. The Beit Alpha mosaics do not pass this test. Plus, it has been covered over for centuries and has only recently been re-discovered. Secondly, I did COMBINATION searches on groups of thematic patterns, which is FAR more important than picking out a single example.

You didn't even pick a good example. The Beit Alpha Sagittarius does NOT have a long-tailed cap, does NOT have wide sleeves, does NOT have pleats, does NOT have bootlaces, and does NOT have a crossbow.

You are a cherry-picker. You CANNOT do good research by picking ONLY the one that suits your purposes (one that isn't even very similar) and ignore the rest. That is what you are doing.

That's not research. That's simply pleasing yourself and reaffirming your own assumptions.

What is important here is that a move away from the Centaur (a mythological creature that, unlike other zodiac signs, represents nothing real in the real world) has already occurred in the sixth century, so it could have easily occurred again in the 13th century. It did not have to wait until the 15th century to reappear.

It seems that this discussion has suddenly degenerated from lively debate to ad hominem attacks, so it is time for me to take a break. It is now up to the Russians (who, according to Alexa.com, visit voynich.ninja in large numbers) to decode the VMS and tell us when and where it originated.

Quote:Morten: What is important here is that a move away from the Centaur...

No, you are wrong.

It does NOT represent a move away from the centaur. It is UNUSUAL for its time.

You ignored the whole historical pattern of Sagittarius.

Some countries persistently retained the centaur and most of them adapted the centaur after the Beit Alpha mosaics were created.

I'm not kidding when I say you are a cherry picker. This demonstrates it. You didn't look at the whole history, you picked one example, an ATYPICAL example and tried to represent it as something it isn't.

Spain, in particular, preferred the centaur.

(28-02-2019, 02:05 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(27-02-2019, 11:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.YOU are a cherry-picker. You pick ONE example from the 6th century that is OUT OF CHARACTER with the other examples from the 6th century and then you use that as an example to negate all the rest? That is preposterous.

I cherry-picked that Sagittarius drawing for a reason. As I have been saying, the encryption wheels on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may have been influenced by Merkabah mysticism of the first millennium, which in turn could have some connection to that Hebrew Sagittarius found in Israel. Thus, though distant in time and place, the two Sagittarii may be connected.



In both cases I see a bloke wearing a skirt, some type of headgear, comfortable footwear, and drawn arrow ready to fire. It is easy enough to imagine an evolution from A to B across six or seven centuries.

You date it to the 6th century. Do you have a precise date for it? I have reasons to believe that it would have been more likely to appear during the 7th century.

So Cathars of the 13th century wrote prophesies of Solomon, or Merlin, then, influenced by the Merkabah mysticism of the 1st millenium, secretly dug up that Hebrew Sagittarius and copied it in a way that just so happened to fortell 15th century fashion in Europe, except they had long departed in some great migration to the Americas. They must have made other copies, and then covered things back up, since it was still there to be found, since they wtote this in the Gulf of Mexico. One plant, maybe two to support this, plus jaguar alligator hybrids, armadillos from south america, from which they made their teepees, where they squirt out the souls of those who died back in the day. Oh, and a quire about how they continue their baptisms while poking each others' brains in making the parchment on which they are writing, or whatever it is called when it is made out of bison, which are only bison because it looked like a deer but then they told you vellum was bovine dna, so it then looked like a bison, except that the Cathars are vegetarian and eschew anything that comes from sexual reproduction, yet they record themselves holding up bloody carcasses on which they will write their story of hebrew mysticism and Merlin prophesies that are later gathered from the vms and decoded and published under the name of Nostradamus. I don't know how it all gets there to or from Peru or goes on to England, but Shakespeare writes the marginalia. 

Did I get that somewhat right?

You cherry picked that image specifically for its preposterousness, to provoke JKP.  A wolf in bison skin. Disappointing. 

And yet JKP is still trying to help you to see, despite all.


.

(28-02-2019, 03:37 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:Morten: What is important here is that a move away from the Centaur...

No, you are wrong.

It does NOT represent a move away from the centaur. It is UNUSUAL for its time.

You ignored the whole historical pattern of Sagittarius.

Some countries persistently retained the centaur and most of them adapted the centaur after the Beit Alpha mosaics were created.

I'm not kidding when I say you are a cherry picker. This demonstrates it. You didn't look at the whole history, you picked one example, an ATYPICAL example and tried to represent it as something it isn't.

Spain, in particular, preferred the centaur.

JP, I remain completely confused on this whole issue. The VMS dates to the early part of 15th century so I presume it predates most of the 15th-century manuscripts that depict a human Sagittarius. Are you claiming that the authors of those manuscripts got the idea of a human Sagittarius from the VMS?

Alternatively, if a 15th-century manuscript was completed between 1400 and 1404, the authors of the VMS could have gotten the idea of a human Sagittarius from there. Which was it?

Also, please confirm that the other 15th-century manuscripts depict a fox tail like the one seen in the VMS. Thanks.

(28-02-2019, 10:39 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(28-02-2019, 03:37 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:Morten: What is important here is that a move away from the Centaur...

No, you are wrong.

It does NOT represent a move away from the centaur. It is UNUSUAL for its time.

You ignored the whole historical pattern of Sagittarius.

Some countries persistently retained the centaur and most of them adapted the centaur after the Beit Alpha mosaics were created.

I'm not kidding when I say you are a cherry picker. This demonstrates it. You didn't look at the whole history, you picked one example, an ATYPICAL example and tried to represent it as something it isn't.

Spain, in particular, preferred the centaur.

JP, I remain completely confused on this whole issue. The VMS dates to the early part of 15th century so I presume it predates most of the 15th-century manuscripts that depict a human Sagittarius. Are you claiming that the authors of those manuscripts got the idea of a human Sagittarius from the VMS?

Alternatively, if a 15th-century manuscript was completed between 1400 and 1404, the authors of the VMS could have gotten the idea of a human Sagittarius from there. Which was it?

Also, please confirm that the other 15th-century manuscripts depict a fox tail like the one seen in the VMS. Thanks.

It does NOT predate the 14th century human Sagittarius figures. Are you assuming human Sagittarius was only in the 15th century? Or only in the late 15th century?

WHY? There's no reason to assume it didn't exist in the 14th century. If it ONLY existed in the late 15th century would I have said these are examplars for the VMS? Of course not!

Look at the MAP in this blog. Click on it so you can see it full-sized. It represents years of research and it includes dates:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


This is based on analyzing approximately 520 FULL zodiac series, most of which are pre-1450 back to antiquity, and very few of which are after 1485 because the VMS themes went out of popularity in the late 15th century and zodiacs became more standardized (and less like the VMS) after the Renaissance.

Research should be based on evidence, not on guesses.

(28-02-2019, 06:44 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So Cathars of the 13th century wrote prophesies of Solomon, or Merlin, then, influenced by the Merkabah mysticism of the 1st millenium, secretly dug up that Hebrew Sagittarius and copied it in a way that just so happened to fortell 15th century fashion in Europe, except they had long departed in some great migration to the Americas. They must have made other copies, and then covered things back up, since it was still there to be found, since they wtote this in the Gulf of Mexico. One plant, maybe two to support this, plus jaguar alligator hybrids, armadillos from south america, from which they made their teepees, where they squirt out the souls of those who died back in the day. Oh, and a quire about how they continue their baptisms while poking each others' brains in making the parchment on which they are writing, or whatever it is called when it is made out of bison, which are only bison because it looked like a deer but then they told you vellum was bovine dna, so it then looked like a bison, except that the Cathars are vegetarian and eschew anything that comes from sexual reproduction, yet they record themselves holding up bloody carcasses on which they will write their story of hebrew mysticism and Merlin prophesies that are later gathered from the vms and decoded and published under the name of Nostradamus. I don't know how it all gets there to or from Peru or goes on to England, but Shakespeare writes the marginalia. 

Did I get that somewhat right?

It was very clever of you to have figured out that Shakespeare wrote the VMS marginalia.

(28-02-2019, 06:44 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You cherry picked that image specifically for its preposterousness, to provoke JKP.  A wolf in bison skin. Disappointing. 

Even in friendly debate, you point out weaknesses in your opponent's arguments. I wouldn't read more into it than that.

(28-02-2019, 06:44 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And yet JKP is still trying to help you to see, despite all.

Yes, and I admire JP for continuing to post in this thread even though I so strongly disagree with many of his beliefs.

(28-02-2019, 10:55 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It does NOT predate the 14th century human Sagittarius figures. Are you assuming human Sagittarius was only in the 15th century? Or only in the late 15th century?

That's my whole point. If there were human Sagittarii in the 14th century, why couldn't the original creation date of the VMS be the 14th century, with the current Beinecke manuscript being only a 15th-century copy? Likewise for the 13th century if another human Sagittarius pops up there? It is you and Koen, not I, who keeps insisting on the 15th century for VMS themes.

I have full confidence in your research capabilities. However, recall that I am claiming that the VMS was compiled by Cathars who are believed to have been prolific writers and to have had possession of many books, yet all that remains of all that is a few scraps of paper. Even the best research leads to faulty conclusions if a lot of vital information is missing.

(28-02-2019, 11:21 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(28-02-2019, 10:55 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It does NOT predate the 14th century human Sagittarius figures. Are you assuming human Sagittarius was only in the 15th century? Or only in the late 15th century?

That's my whole point. If there were human Sagittarii in the 14th century, why couldn't the original creation date of the VMS be the 14th century, with the current Beinecke manuscript being only a 15th-century copy? Likewise for the 13th century if another human Sagittarius pops up there? It is you and Koen, not I, who keeps insisting on the 15th century for VMS themes.

...

Because you have to consider ALL the zodiac figures, not just Sagittarius. That's why combinations searches are important.


Morten, the research takes MANY pieces of evidence and factors into consideration, not only Sagittarius. It's taken me half a dozen blogs just to INTRODUCE the ideas. You can't go around looking at the evidence through a peephole. What looks like a bumpy old suitcase up close might be a real live elephant if you step back and consider the bigger picture.

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(28-02-2019, 11:39 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Because you have to consider ALL the zodiac figures, not just Sagittarius. 

Yes, JP, I am looking at ALL the evidence, but not just all the zodiac evidence. It's hardly clear-cut, otherwise the VMS wouldn't be classified as a mystery.

Let me summarize the main points of contention between your theories and mine so that we can then discuss ways to resolve the issue.

You are claiming that the VMS is a unique, original document created in Europe during the early 15th century and reflecting European culture of the early 15th century.

I am claiming that the VMS was composed in the Americas during the early 15th century as a copy of earlier documents reflecting European culture of the mid 13th century.

It seems that the only American animal that might serve as a source for vellum-quality parchment is the bison, a close relative of European cows. Thus, another protein test (this time for bison protein) might definitively resolve the issue.

I've had prior two-way email contact with the protein lady in York and I might be able to convince her to do the bison testing for free. Your task would be to convince the Beinecke Library (I do not get on well with them) to send her a tiny scraping for testing.

Deal?

PS. To encourage the Beinecke Library to allow further testing, you can try telling them that Linda thinks Shakespeare wrote the VMS marginalia. Thus, beyond a few signatures of doubtful authenticity, the VMS would contain the only extant examples of the handwriting of the real Shakespeare, which could easily double the fame and market value of the VMS. 

I s

(28-02-2019, 06:09 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are claiming that the VMS is a unique, original document created in Europe during the early 15th century and reflecting European culture of the early 15th century.

Morten, this is BS. You are putting words in my mouth that I have never spoken.

1) NO I AM NOT claiming it's a unique, original document. I have NEVER SAID THAT. It might be a copy of something.

2) I have NEVER claimed it was from Europe. I think there's a 98% chance it is, based on 12 years of research, but only because I have never been able to FIND any evidence pointing to Asia or the Americas. I've LOOKED. I like Asian culture. I know American culture. But even though it's probably from the western end of the Old World, I do not ASSUME it's from Europe. I have an open mind until it is proven.

I have ALWAYS checked both American and eastern cultures EVERY TIME I SEARCH. That includes plants, drawing styles, glyph styles, hair styles, clothing, etc., etc., etc.

The VMS will NOT be solved by theories. The VMS will be solved by evidence.

A theory is a TOOL for focusing the research (one that is often over-used and abused), but it should be discarded or revised if the evidence does not support it.