The Voynich Ninja

(29-03-2019, 04:18 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(28-03-2019, 09:13 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
A team effort, of course, negates theories about the mad scientist of northern Italy, 15th century, which is needed to explain how the VMS managed to evade all historical reference in an environment under the close scrutiny of the Inquisition. A team effort also tends to negate the hoax theories.
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No, it doesn't. I looked into medieval hoaxes and they really weren't much different from what happens today... small groups of people are often involved.

I think the logic is that the VMS is far more complex than the typical hoax, requiring a vast amount of time and effort to put into effect, and therefore, as a pure hoax, is less likely to be attractive to a group of individuals than to a single, mentally disturbed individual. But yes, of course, multiple people can engage in a hoax: years ago it was postulated that the VMS was a hoax compiled by John Dee and Edward Kelley in joint effort.

Know that I view the majority of the depicted plants as fake, that is, as imagined plants rather than as real plants, though surely the artists derived elements from memory of plants they had seen. This explains why the sunflower may be only partially accurate in its depiction.

Likewise, the text accompanying the plant drawings may also be fake, that is, meaningless text compiled by random extractions of tokens from the "starred" pages, namely You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the epistula) for Language A and from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the liber) for Language B. You claim to be an expert on VMS text and are presumably in possession of a large amount of data on it, so you tell me whether or not such a thing is possible.

(29-03-2019, 05:45 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Know that I view the majority of the depicted plants as fake, that is, as imagined plants rather than as real plants, though surely the artists derived elements from memory of plants they had seen. This explains why the sunflower may be only partially accurate in its depiction.

Likewise, the text accompanying the plant drawings may also be fake, that is, meaningless text compiled by random extractions of tokens from the "starred" pages, namely You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the epistula) for Language A and from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the liber) for Language B. You claim to be an expert on VMS text and are presumably in possession of a large amount of data on it, so you tell me whether or not such a thing is possible.

I don't think the plants are fake. Some are quite naturalistic and identifiable. Some are very stylized, but this might be for mnemonic reasons. I would not write them off as fake plants. They are probably just drawn in a way that is culturally and mnemonically meaningful to whoever drew them.

There is no proof that there is a "sunflower" in the VMS. There are a number of plants that look like the VMS "sunflower" that are not part of the sunflower family.

The text accompanying the plants might be meaningless. Or it might be in a system that isn't yet understood. I would not assume it's meaningless until we have explored all the possible ways the text could be constructed, and that is work in progress.

(29-03-2019, 07:21 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think the plants are fake. Some are quite naturalistic and identifiable. Some are very stylized, but this might be for mnemonic reasons. I would not write them off as fake plants. They are probably just drawn in a way that is culturally and mnemonically meaningful to whoever drew them.

There is no proof that there is a "sunflower" in the VMS. There are a number of plants that look like the VMS "sunflower" that are not part of the sunflower family.

The text accompanying the plants might be meaningless. Or it might be in a system that isn't yet understood. I would not assume it's meaningless until we have explored all the possible ways the text could be constructed, and that is work in progress.

Please note that I did not say that all the plants are fake but only the "majority" of them. For example, I have no complaints about the water lily, a native American plant, on f2v. Back in the beginning, I thought they were all real plants with many of the drawings representing plant species that are now extinct, but with the retreat from the Amazon rainforest to Mexico, it became far less likely that the VMS was a serious effort to catalog and accurately describe real plants.

Though surely many of the plant drawings were based on artist recollections of real plants, their objective appears to have been to provide added protection for the sacred text encoded into the deep text pages. Thus, the plants can be arbitrarily real, partially real, or completely fake, and the accompanying text in all cases is likely meaningless. Like you, I await evidence to the contrary.

(29-03-2019, 10:37 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Please note that I did not say that all the plants are fake but only the "majority" of them. For example, I have no complaints about the water lily, a native American plant, on f2v.

Water lilies grow all over the world. That specific species grows all over the world, New World, Old World. It's a common plant. Forget about it being North American, just think of it as circumboreal, because that's what it is.

I respect your way of thinking and also i ask for somebody's help...even you...about page 57v. Full translate like few ten others is in my FB page "Alex BC" Voynich Manuscript. Where was a true reason to make that kinda language which even can be read by my kids but in the very same time cannot be read by computers? Religions? I don't know....i just stuck...no ideas

(28-03-2019, 10:54 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda, I am a seeker of the truth and would never continue to propagate a theory that I believed to be false. That's why I need to see your "offerings" so that I can evaluate them. My mainstay theory is that the VMS is the source of thirty-nine Nostradamus prophecies, not that the VMS was compiled in the Americas. Did you find a depiction of the Black Death in the VMS? A depiction of the Hundred Years War?  A depiction of a pope or king of the 14th or 15th century? Tell me what it is that makes you think the VMS could not have been compiled in the Americas.

Well, as i said i have no proof but the 3 dated items i believe to be referenced are 1415 Portugal takes Ceuta, 1419 the Grimaldi purchase of Monaco from the Crown of Aragon, and the 1414-1418 Council of Constance, although only insofar as the venue, ie location of Lake Constance, but the event and its outcomes may be implied, given its timing in relation to the other two dates. I can lay out my reasoning for each if you wish. As i said they appear to be unrelated except in timing.

The references i believe to be shown are all related to changing faces on the geopolitical landscape, and they outline different means of change, ie through conquest, purchase, and politics, respectively.

Your mainstay theory should state your belief of the true origin of these prophesies, since Nostradamus was born in the 16th century, and without that, i think it would tend to make a newcomer doubt it immediately, especially if mentioned in conjunction with the Cathar authorship aspect.

I dont know if there is reference to the black death or hundred years war, or a pope or king. Possibly, though. I get the sense that religion is referenced, but I find most cultural references to be either summarised, or stripped away, in favour of a homogenous world view.

Reasons why i dont think the vms was made in America? Basically the timing aspects. I think it is possible for people to have gone there before 1492, but to write up this entire manuscript, keeping it in relatively good shape, and still have it show up in Prague centuries later seems a stretch to me. But you know what, i just realized that if someone did that, they might well write a book about the history they could remember of the old world, for others in future to know of its existence. And the dated events i outlined precede the commonly quoted 1438 carbon dating by 20 years. So i concede to the possibility. But i would say the probability is still very low. 

I wonder if dna from the vellum could link it more closely with a place, although even if it did, it could still have been purchased by a traveller that otherwise had nothing to do with that place. But it would give more factual evidence to work with. It would be very interesting to track down the descendants, if any, and see their current location spread.

I think it was written in the vicinity of the Po basin, from the multiple references to the area that i see portrayed, including that castle you identified as Montsegur, i see it representing the western side of the Po valley, the Ghibelline swallowtail merlons belong there, and it ushers the way across a steep area (the western Alps) to France (the bridge) through to Spain. In my view, for the castle to be Montsegur, it would have been drawn on the other side of the bridge. 

I had originally thought the ornamental crennelations might just be commonplace to the artist but perhaps there is a connection in that it was the imperial party vs the church party, with the Roman emperor supported by the Ghibbelines, as opposed to the Pope by the Guelphs. There may be further symbolism that will provide even more geo-theistic-political references. In that sense, 14th and 15th century popes, as well as kings, might be referenced by that castle and now looking at this map, i can see some more context in terms of some of the imagery on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f80v. Constance is the lake at the top, the Po river is the one near Milan.

It just occurred to me that there is another coincidental date and that is 1416, the county of Savoy became the Duchy of Savoy. It was the westernmost part of the Po basin and the castle may represent both this area and this event. In terms of change, it adds to the list of types, this one being imperial.

(29-03-2019, 10:45 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-03-2019, 10:37 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Please note that I did not say that all the plants are fake but only the "majority" of them. For example, I have no complaints about the water lily, a native American plant, on f2v.

Water lilies grow all over the world. That specific species grows all over the world, New World, Old World. It's a common plant. Forget about it being North American, just think of it as circumboreal, because that's what it is.

I would agree that the use of this plant as a basis for american origin of the vms is problematic for that reason. The sunflower idea is even more problematic since there is even less agreement as to the genus of the plant, not to mention species.

(29-03-2019, 10:45 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Water lilies grow all over the world. That specific species grows all over the world, New World, Old World. It's a common plant. Forget about it being North American, just think of it as circumboreal, because that's what it is.

Well, we seem to agree that at least one of the VMS drawings depicts a real plant.

I now view it as a fool's game to debate plant location: there are apparently so many plant species that no matter which real plant you choose to select, you are likely to find a similar-looking plant somewhere else in the world, i.e. plants were more likely to have been dispersed by wind and ocean currents than animals

On the other hand, the VMS also depicts plants for which, as far as I know, no one has been able to find a look-alike anywhere. As all real plants are likely to have a look-alike somewhere, I am forced to conclude that the VMS also depicts fantasy plants.

(29-03-2019, 03:47 PM)Aldis Mengelsons Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I respect your way of thinking and also i ask for somebody's help...even you...about page 57v. Full translate like few ten others is in my FB page "Alex BC" Voynich Manuscript. Where was a true reason to make that kinda language which even can be read by my kids but in the very same time cannot be read by computers? Religions? I don't know....i just stuck...no ideas

Aldis, i realize you were asking Morten, but if i may make a suggestion,  maybe you could start a new thread of your own, and tell us in a very detailed way exactly how you and your kids read these words, since until others can understand your method, it is difficult for anyone to help or comment in any way. I have seen quite a few of your tranlations but i still dont see your method. Maybe you could put pictures or use the font to show which words are which so we can question you further on your results thus far and gain insight into how to do it ourselves, if this is possible. Then perhaps there is a chance we can assist you in going forward. I would like to see a short clear example, like show us which line you are translating, then tell us what letters correspond to what language, ie each step you take in reading it and translating it to English for us. Kind of like how Geoffrey goes through each step of his translations, i find that very useful even though i dont know the languages he is dealing with so i dont have too much to go by as yet. Some of us may not be able to follow along if the languages involved are not familiar to us, so teach us like we are very new to it.

(29-03-2019, 04:56 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the other hand, the VMS also depicts plants for which, as far as I know, no one has been able to find a look-alike anywhere. As all real plants are likely to have a look-alike somewhere, I am forced to conclude that the VMS also depicts fantasy plants.

Plants that are identified by mnemonics don't have to be look-alikes. If someone draws a picture of a devil and emphasizes the claws by drawing the hands really large and the drawing is in between other plants, a plant person would know that it means devil's-claw plant. Mnemonics were moderately common in medieval drawings of plants.