The Voynich Ninja

(07-05-2019, 04:23 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(05-12-2018, 10:58 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's not a teepee and we don't know what it is. If we did, it wouldn't quite be the "world's most mysterious manuscript".

Is this supposed to be the silly comment? Nothing silly about it.

Quote:You were referring to the drawing on the left side of the following graphic:



It was discovery of the drawing on the right (and most certainly not any comment by you or JP) that obliged me to abandon the tepee idea.

Discovery? It is on the same page. Did you not look at the whole page before coming up with your theory?
You could also consider deleting that image and replacing it with a crisp one, you have been shown that this one is sub par before.

Quote:As I have been postulating all along, quire 20 of the VMS contains the tenets of their faith. Today, we view those tenets as prophecies but they may have seen it all as no more than revelation from their god regarding the creation process. As theorized, the tenets of quire 20 were decoded, translated, and published in the 16th century, so surely that would be the place to look for an explanation of we see depicted in the above drawings.

Nice to have confidence, but none of this is fact simply because you have postulated this all along. Surely many will disagree with you. Perhaps silly would even come to mind for some, when describing this idea.

Quote:Both drawings depict the same thing and I have concluded that it is nothing more than a stump. 

Uh huh. Because they look so much like stumps? They look miore like teepees than stumps. I am guessing there is some other reason for your choice. I think they look like volcanoes, although i dont know that was what was meant. So are the stumps on fire or something?

Quote:For those of you who are weak on English, 

What? This seems somewhat unnecessary and condescending. 

Quote:a stump is the lower part of a tree, including the roots, that remains in the ground when a tree is cut down. The stump itself stays alive for a while but the tree itself is effectively dead.

 

I figured it was not the stump of a leg or arm, nor a croquet peg, although had you said pencil stump, there is more resemblance there than with tree stumps in my opinion.

Quote:Note an irregular bump (sometimes seen on trees) on the left side of the left stump. Note what looks like grass (or ground) toward the bottom right of the right stump.

Volcanoes can have bumps and grass too. Or maybe it is not grass. Maybe it is hair and these are skin blemishes.

Quote:The stump has a mouth which is the roundish thing seen on the top of the stump, and through that mouth the stump spits out blood (depicted in two ways in those drawings) which engenders life in the material world. 

Uh huh. I have never seen a tree stump do this, are you sure you didn't mean body parts? Why does the stump have a mouth? Wouldnt this be the flat part where it was cut, if it were a tree stump? Why are we abandoning this idea to put a mouth on it? That spews blood? Did it eat the people? 

Inside the stump, we see the souls of dead people (represented by small circles) which for an indefinite time, maybe a very long time, are locked up therein awaiting rebirth in the material world (when they will be spat out in the blood), otherwise known as reincarnation.

[/quote]

I have never heard of this kind of reincarnation. So now the stump also has no bark, is invisible, and contains souls of people. Where are these stumps, by the way? How did the souls all know to go to these stumps, or did the stumps come and get them?

Quote:Note that on the Rosettes Page, people who have escaped the endless cycle of reincarnations (by virtue of having lived "perfect" lives or by being "consoled") are depicted with stars, not circles, and ascend to eternal bliss in the spiritual world. 

Oh? You say 'note that', like it is a fact, which it clearly isn't. So the stump is going to spew stars of blood. And those bloody star souls that used to be circles then inhabit rosettes in a spiritual realm, free of the dreaded reincarnation cycle after having spent  purgatory in said stump. And you are being serious?

Quote:Much of the Rosettes Page looks like an attempt to depict the spiritual world.

Does it?

[/quote]

For those of you who think what I just wrote is ridiculous or preposterous, you are most welcome to tell us what you think it is and why your explanation is better than mine.

Quote:Maybe not ridiculous or preposterous, but silly?

My conclusions were largely drawn from prophecy X-56:



Translation:

Royal prelate your "baissant" all shot up,
A great flow of blood shall come out of your mouth,
The Anglican reign by reign respires,
Long time dead alive in "Tunis" like a stump.

In this one prophecy we see all the mentioned elements: the stump, the mouth, the blood, rebirth, long time in limbo.

[/quote]

Ah i see now why you say it is a stump. It is not even silly. Another word comes to mind.

The royal prelate his bowing too low,
A great flow of blood will come out of his mouth:
The Anglican realm a realm pulled out of danger,
For long dead as a stump alive in Tunis.

[font=Times New Roman][font=Arial,Helvetica][size=undefined]X.56[/font]
[/font][/size]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=undefined][after an incident at the English court, presumably under Queen Mary][/font][/size]
[font=Times New Roman][font=Arial,Helvetica][size=undefined]The royal prelate bowing too low, 
[size=undefined]a great flow of blood shall come out of his mouth: 
[size=undefined]the English realm [shall be] revived by the Queen.[/size] 
[size=undefined]For long he shall be in Tunis alive and dead as a log.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/size]


The royal priest bowing too low
A great flow of blood shall come out of his mouth
The Anglican reign, a reign breathing
For a long time dead as a stump, living in Tunis.

So...i guess your stump is an Anglican priest, is he the one who ate the Cathars' souls? How did they get to America from Tunis, or did he eat them there and then come back? I dont see any reference to rebirth, just someone exiled.

Quote:On the translation, I will do a follow-up post on the two words that I placed in quotes. This will help some of you to understand why such a sophisticated mechanism of encoding was created to protect quire 20. It will also help explain my interest in the VMS and why I think it is important that we succeed in decoding it.

Not really interested, i had hopes for this post, but it was pretty disappointing, in that you have not refuted Koen's statement one bit, since we do not know any of this, and my guess is that if pressed, most would go so far as to say this is not what it is, and really, i think this stump idea does even less for your made in America theory than the teepee idea. 

Tunis is one of the words you have to find a backstory for since it has nothing to do with Cathars or America, it will just be some spin that will fit it to your theory, so i can see why it is in quotes. What about the word Anglican? Why is it not in quotes?

But by all means, let's see if you can pull this mess together.

(07-05-2019, 03:46 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think they look like volcanoes

Linda, In case you haven't guessed, as part of my new approach to this forum I am no longer responding to posts that I view as overtly hostile. I am not trying to convince you on the accuracy of my stump theory (I know that would be an impossible task), so I have no need to respond to hostilities. I'm confident that at least some visitors to this website will see my arguments and be able to evaluate them fairly.

Nonetheless, I will always respond to sensible questions and criticisms that are soberly made, and in that regard it seems your volcano idea merits a response. I too once considered the possibility that it could be volcano and I gather many others have also considered that possibility. In fact, university academics have even identified the specific volcanoes being depicted in the VMS, as you can see here:



In spite of a positive ID on those volcanoes, and even though my stumps are far less explosive than volcanoes, I will continue to promote the stumps because I believe they are the correct answer.

These are not positive IDs of volcanoes, Morten, these are either ideas, or theories, depending on how they are presented.

They are not positive IDs until verifiable facts are found to support the IDs.

There are actually quite a few active volcanoes in Europe.

Vesuvius probably counts as dormant, but its eruption was known from classical works.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ,  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. have all been active throughout history.

One might also mention You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .

In fact, there is a list of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , which includes 16 volcanoes around the world that stand out for their large, destructive eruptions and proximity to populated areas.
Four of them are in Europe.
The two volcanoes in Mexico proposed by A.Tucker are not on this list.

This is of course just for information, and primarily a criticism of the theory of Tucker.

I hope that it doesn't come across as hostile.

(09-05-2019, 07:22 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(07-05-2019, 03:46 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think they look like volcanoes

Linda, In case you haven't guessed, as part of my new approach to this forum I am no longer responding to posts that I view as overtly hostile. I am not trying to convince you on the accuracy of my stump theory (I know that would be an impossible task), so I have no need to respond to hostilities. I'm confident that at least some visitors to this website will see my arguments and be able to evaluate them fairly.

Nonetheless, I will always respond to sensible questions and criticisms that are soberly made, and in that regard it seems your volcano idea merits a response. I too once considered the possibility that it could be volcano and I gather many others have also considered that possibility. In fact, university academics have even identified the specific volcanoes being depicted in the VMS, as you can see here:



In spite of a positive ID on those volcanoes, and even though my stumps are far less explosive than volcanoes, I will continue to promote the stumps because I believe they are the correct answer.

I think that is a good stance to take. I apologize for any hostility on my part, i was not happy with your categorization of Koen's comment as being silly, and you are right your argument did not impress me, due to the fact that you built an identification out of your desired result, being made up of words in the Nostradamus quattrain.

I will stick to the volcanoes for now. I dont think a positive id can be had without confirmation of matching text, regardless.

Un-stump-like stumps with holes in the stop spewing what looks like it might be some kind of liquid.

I liked the teepee idea better and I didn't especially like the teepee idea.

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Some parts of the VMS look more naturalistic. Some look more stylized or mythical. Because of the patterns on these bumps, I'm not sure which these are intended to be, but the spewy parts are drawn quite carefully, as though based on actual observations.

Morten, I don't have a problem with people presenting ideas. I think it's good most of the time (I'm very keen on brainstorming as many ideas as possible BEFORE settling on which ones might be better to research).

But that's not really what you do. You prematurely "latch on" to ideas before thoroughly researching them, instead of researching them and THEN deciding which one is best. It may be more emotionally satisfying to convince yourself you've found something, but it's not really more efficient in the long run. It makes it harder to let go of wrong ideas and then you lose more time than you gain (and possibly never reach your goal).


No one KNOWS if these are volcanoes. No one KNOWS where they might be located if they are (although we can make a list of global volcanoes and use that as a reference). There isn't enough corroborating evidence to be sure. I'm kind of hoping they are. Volcanoes are cool, well, hot... actually some are cool, like the ancient ones near Damascus (where mud pots and craters can still be seen).

But they might not be volcanoes at all. They might be something more common to medieval illustrations... they might be water sources. Or they might be cosmic dust (or souls, as you suggested). But don't get too invested in one idea when there are several possibilities.

What's wrong with having a list of possibilities? Less glamorous than a theory? Yes, it is, but it's more likely to lead to good results.

(09-05-2019, 07:55 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are actually quite a few active volcanoes in Europe.

Vesuvius probably counts as dormant, but its eruption was known from classical works.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ,  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. have all been active throughout history.

One might also mention You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .

In fact, there is a list of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , which includes 16 volcanoes around the world that stand out for their large, destructive eruptions and proximity to populated areas.
Four of them are in Europe.
The two volcanoes in Mexico proposed by A.Tucker are not on this list.

This is of course just for information, and primarily a criticism of the theory of Tucker.

I hope that it doesn't come across as hostile.

Vesuvius last erupted in 1944, there is film footage, here is a still


Ararat last 1840 although it was more of a landslide


Those are my two favourites for the two in the rosettes. Note one seems to have steam or smoke, and the other seems to have ice or mineral crystals coming from their respective tops.

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(09-05-2019, 08:44 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Un-stump-like stumps with holes in the stop spewing what looks like it might be some kind of liquid.

I liked the teepee idea better and I didn't especially like the teepee idea.

I liked the teepee better too, same original feeling on it.

(09-05-2019, 08:24 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think that is a good stance to take. I apologize for any hostility on my part, i was not happy with your categorization of Koen's comment as being silly, and you are right your argument did not impress me, due to the fact that you built an identification out of your desired result, being made up of words in the Nostradamus quattrain.

When I was young, phrases like "that's silly" were frequently spoken between friends as a polite way of indicating "I think you could do better" and I still think it is not acceptable to write off anything in VMS as a mystery and just forget about it. Silly  was never taken as offensive like "you're stupid" might be.

(09-05-2019, 08:24 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I will stick to the volcanoes for now. I dont think a positive id can be had without confirmation of matching text, regardless.

I was only teasing you on the volcanoes. Specific volcanoes, of course, cannot be identified from those crude VMS drawings. The fact is there is little else on the Rosettes Page that would support those depictions as volcanoes. Montségur mountain was not a volcano nor even near a volcano. The souls of the dead of Montségur were martyrs and surely ascend to the spiritual world where they circle around and around. The symbolic stump of the revelations, as a container of souls in limbo, makes sense in the context of the Rosettes Page as a whole.

(09-05-2019, 08:44 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I liked the teepee idea better and I didn't especially like the teepee idea.

I thought it could be a tepee (note that it was drawn not far from other types of lodging) when I was looking at it on Yale.PDF. As you know, this is the infamous PDF produced by incompetent scanners who, besides deciding to include a tapir, also decided to omit the mouth of the second volcano.

It was what looked like crisscrossed logs coming out of the mouth of the first volcano that made me think it could be a tepee. But when I discovered a second mouth on Yale.TIF, and it had no logs coming out of it, the tepee idea had to be discarded.

Beyond the VMS, no Cathar literature of substance has survived. But the literature of medieval Cabalists, who lived in the same time and place as the Cathars and who had sight of the same ancient prophecies, wrote about the transmigration of souls, likely sourced from the same stump prophecy.

I've made an extensive study of medieval cabalistic literature. Tree symbolism, all parts of the tree, was commonplace and even dominant when it came to the Tree of Life.

(09-05-2019, 07:55 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is of course just for information, and primarily a criticism of the theory of Tucker.

I find it hard to have confidence in the theory of anyone who rejects the radiocarbon findings: Tucker claims that the VMS is a production of the 16th century. The reputation of the Univ. of Arizona is pristine and, unlike the protein people, they took the VMS samples themselves.

However, a long list of erroneous thinking does not rule out the possibility that Tucker could be right on a few of the plant associations.