The Voynich Ninja

A vast amount of tropical plants grow in India, which was connected to medieval Europe by trade routes.
Green water was not uncommon in medieval imagery, it's only in modern times that we think of water as blue. Google images of "De Balneis Puteolanis" for examples.

(07-12-2018, 05:33 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A vast amount of tropical plants grow in India, which was connected to medieval Europe by trade routes.
Green water was not uncommon in medieval imagery, it's only in modern times that we think of water as blue. Google images of "De Balneis Puteolanis" for examples.

In the VMS, the gals contrast their new bathing in the American swamps with their old bathing in the Roman baths of Europe. Roman baths (built on top of arches to allow heating from underneath) date back to classical times and can be found all over Europe. Some of them are still in use today. And they are of no help to you for dating the VMS to the 15th century.

Of greater importance is the fact that no other work written wholly or partially in Voynichese has ever been found in Europe. Even in medieval times European writing and culture was well-documented. Could the mysterious absence of more examples of Voynichese in Europe be a sign that maybe the VMS wasn't compiled in Europe?

Meanwhile, a Professor Emeritus of Anthropology at Yale University (where the VMS is now kept) wrote:

"Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, only four have survived to modern times (as though all that posterity knew of ourselves were to be based upon three prayer books and Pilgrim's Progress)."

The point is that we do not how many of those thousands of books that were destroyed might have been written in Voynichese. For sure, the Spanish Inquisition would have made no effort to distinguish VMS script from hieroglyphics.

(07-12-2018, 03:33 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....

1. The great diversity of plants seen in the VMS, whether real or imaginary, is suggestive of climates more diverse than what is found in Europe.

Diversity was not a problem in the Old World, where there is a huge diversity in geography and plants.

From the arctic to Africa, from the coast to the Alps, to inner Russia and Mongolia...Europeans imported plants from Africa, Russia, the Caucasus, the Middle East and even a few that were easy to carry (e.g., certain spices) from India long before the Middle Ages. These plants were from climates that were exceedingly diverse. People were able to get around the Old World more easily than the New World because the Old World was already widely populated and agriculture was already widely established, so it was easier to trade with people and obtain a diversity of plant products in the Old World. Plus the VMS plants tend to fall into certain plant tyoes. They're not as diverse as you imply. Your argument is simply a blind invention that has no basis in fact.

Quote:2. Depictions of naked women bathing in plant-infested swamp water is reflective of a warmer climate that what is typically found in Europe.

I don't see any evidence that green means swamp water. There is lots of green water in Europe in natural spa areas. Also, it's possible the VMS is color-coded (e.g., blue for salt water, green for fresh water) and the green water may have no relation to swamp. And who bathes in swamps? They are full of malaria, even New World swamps had malaria in those days. People didn't understand how malaria was transmitted, but they DID understand that swamps had "bad air" (they thought the air caused the malaria). Or the green paint may be simply the result of a limited palette. The VMS palette consists of only five colors: pale amber, red, blue, green, brown (and a trace of white if you want to count that as a color). Not much choice for the water other than blue and green.

Quote:These arguments are expandable and go well beyond the mere depiction of a single sunflower or an armadillo.

These arguments are not supported by evidence, particularly #1, which is simply untrue.

(07-12-2018, 08:12 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(07-12-2018, 05:33 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A vast amount of tropical plants grow in India, which was connected to medieval Europe by trade routes.
Green water was not uncommon in medieval imagery, it's only in modern times that we think of water as blue. Google images of "De Balneis Puteolanis" for examples.

In the VMS, the gals contrast their new bathing in the American swamps with their old bathing in the Roman baths of Europe. Roman baths (built on top of arches to allow heating from underneath) date back to classical times and can be found all over Europe. Some of them are still in use today. And they are of no help to you for dating the VMS to the 15th century.

Of greater importance is the fact that no other work written wholly or partially in Voynichese has ever been found in Europe. Even in medieval times European writing and culture was well-documented. Could the mysterious absence of more examples of Voynichese in Europe be a sign that maybe the VMS wasn't compiled in Europe?

Meanwhile, a Professor Emeritus of Anthropology at Yale University (where the VMS is now kept) wrote:

"Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, only four have survived to modern times (as though all that posterity knew of ourselves were to be based upon three prayer books and Pilgrim's Progress)."

There is LOTS of Mayan writing on stones and temples, and some in manuscripts, and it is pictograms, similar to Egyptian writing in concept. The shapes and the way they are presented has nothing in common with the VMS.

Quote:The point is that we do not how many of those thousands of books that were destroyed might have been written in Voynichese. For sure, the Spanish Inquisition would have made no effort to distinguish VMS script from hieroglyphics.

Do you know ANYTHING about the Spanish occupation? because you talk as if you're inventing an alternate history. Some of the missionaries did make an effort to record some of the icons and style of communication of the local people.

(07-12-2018, 08:26 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't see any evidence that green means swamp water.

I do not know what causes the green color of the water in Koen's depiction. Perhaps it comes from fragrances added to the water or is just a reflection of nearby vegetation. In the VMS, however, the green color comes from plant infestation such as by the swamp lily depicted on f2v.

1. On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. we see a gal floating on her back. The plant density is so thick that it gives buoyancy to the water.

2. On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. we see, also, a gal holding a measuring stick in her right hand to measure the depth of the water. The plant density is so thick that she cannot see the bottom and surely she does not want to step into a hole and drown.

3. On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. we see predator animals and a bloodied prey. Dead prey floating on the water is something we might expect to see in swamps, not in European baths.

4. On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. we see a gal dreaming of making herself a skirt and holding in her right hand a medieval instrument used for cleaning animal hide.

5. On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. we see an armadillo. Habitat: "Found from South and Central America to Oklahoma, the armadillo tends to live in forests near swampy areas." Note that the word "swampy" relates to swamps.

6. On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. we see one of the gals asleep in her tree hut. It's logical that they would try to sleep in the trees as protection from the predator animals.

7. On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. we see the gals lined up to wash off the silt of the swamp water using clean rainwater (colored blue) collected into a bucket.

Most of this section of the VMS is pure fantasy, life energies derived from the plants type of stuff, but there are enough real life depictions to leave no doubt that these naked gals are living in a swamp.

Morten, there are many places with green water, including mineral spas that have been popular bathing areas for thousands of years.


But as I said, it might be irrelevant. The illustrator only had five colors. Would you expect that person to use brown and red for the water?

Water is colorless. 

Before modern times, when images of blue water on tropical beaches became ubiquitous, people simply didn't think of water as necessarily blue. That is why in many medieval depictions, water can be both green and blue. That doesn't mean there's something in the water. It's just the way they conceptualized it. 

Depending on the time of day, depth and so on, perfectly normal European rivers can appear blue, green, brown, grey and everything in between. No need for swamps and herbs.

(08-12-2018, 07:56 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Water is colorless. 

I know that, thanks. I drink it all the time. With the term "green water" I was only referring to the VMS coloring, whereby the color is derived from green plant life living in or on the surface of the water as you can see in this Wikimedia photo of a New World swamp:



Let me point out that the plant depicted on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is unambiguously a Nymphoides aquatica, a New World plant (large green leaf with white flower) that lives on the surface of pond water. There is no such plant in Europe and hence the green marsh foam we see in the VMS is more likely located in the Americas than in Europe. If I recall correctly, a while back JP found a similar plant (but with wrong color flower) in India but he failed to back it up with a VMS depiction of the Buddha, a Hindu temple, an elephant, or anything else that would affirm contact with India.

Please see my preceding post for more evidence that the VMS depicts swamp water.

Menyanthes/Vallarsia (which includes Nymphoides) grows all over the world... Europe, Africa, Australia, India. It is both white and yellow.

The New World gulf species is so similar to the Old World species, botanists actually thought it was an Old World plant that had been brought over with the colonists. It was not until they studied the genetics that they discovered it was native to the New World. So... some of the Old  World and New World species are so similar, visual inspection isn't enough to tell them apart.

Such nonsense that green ponds only appear in America. Various kinds of duckweed appear all over the world, including Europe. I am well accustomed to the sight of green vegetation on a pond's surface.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Apart from that, this is a moot point anyway because regular water was often painted green. This has nothing to do with vegetation, but rather with artistic convention an cultural perception.