The Voynich Ninja

(10-02-2018, 07:48 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is reason to believe that the cones were there in the early 13th century:

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I will admit,however, that Voillet's cones look a little nicer!

You are right about these towers at the main entrance. When I visited Carcassonne the guide told us that some roofs were added by Violet-le-Duc ; she must have meant some other towers and/or battlements. For these three towers, the roofing material was changed from slate to tile in 1960 because of the controversy, but slate may have been used in some places because northerners were involved in the construction.
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More shallow pitch terracotta tile roofs, typical of the south of France, probably covered towers at Montségur II:

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and Montségur III:

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There were apparently no battlements anywhere in France with merlons shaped like sparrow tails. Just google merlons + "queue d'hirondelle"... only northern Italy and Tyrol come up.

For the "keys" in the First Folio there are pages on your web site that I missed, I will read them this week. In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I am surprised by:

Quote:Geoffrey (who wrote in Latin) was looking at the original manuscript of those prophecies which were likely written in Latin.

From a quick browsing of books on the subject I see that Geoffrey of Monmouth is said to have translated the prophecies from Breton. Some older sources are referenced but I have not found any transcript or translation yet.

(12-02-2018, 01:18 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There were apparently no battlements anywhere in France with merlons shaped like sparrow tails. Just google merlons + "queue d'hirondelle"... only northern Italy and Tyrol come up.

I wouldn't say that.
Better say that a few castels in France have (and had) merlons shaped like sparrow tails.

I give you this image from a castle located in south of France, in Cagnes-sur-mer (near Cannes and Nice).
It's the grimaldi castle.

That's an interesting castle given its proximity to the coast. It would be of interest to find out whether the swallow tails were part of the 14th century design pr rather a later feature.

(12-02-2018, 03:15 PM)Paris Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I give you this image from a castle located in south of France, in Cagnes-sur-mer (near Cannes and Nice).
It's the grimaldi castle.

Nice find but, technically, Provence was not a part of France until 1486. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Morten St George argues that the VMs depicts a Cathar castle, maybe Montségur. That's not likely IMHO. The shape of the (pointy) roof and merlons are not correct for the area.

The illustrator who drew this:

had no idea what Montségur looked like.

Grimaldi castle in earlier times:



No swallowtail battlements, but were there in even earlier times before the central tower was added?



Maybe, maybe not. It apparently had a major renovation in 1620 so it's probably impossible to know if the original had these merlons.

That's confusing. But well, if the tower is a late addition then it certainly can't be the VM castle.

(12-02-2018, 10:39 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:Morten St George: As I mention in my article, another possibility would be numerical reduction to a Hebrew letter and then a system whereby each Hebrew letter is associated with a Latin letter without numerical equivalence.

Kabbalah theories have been discussed many times on these threads.

The problem with reduction of a Hebrew letter to a Latin letter (with or without numerical equivalence) is that as soon as you start doing substitution, you run into the same problems of the structural oddities of the VMS text as you would if you started with letters rather than numbers.

I'm just now starting to have a look at other threads. In fact, I posted a comment on the Fleur de Lys thread only a moment ago. I imagine I will eventually find the Kabbalah threads and I look forward to it.

I'm not so sure what you say applies if there is a Rosetta Stone at hand, that is, if you already know what certain lines of VMS glyphs convert to in the Latin alphabet. For sure, the number of numerical combinations on the glyph side are enormous but they are not infinite.

If my Rosetta Stone is valid (and perhaps that is a very big IF), a very good computer programmer should be able to break the code in a matter of weeks.

(12-02-2018, 10:04 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's confusing. But well, if the tower is a late addition then it certainly can't be the VM castle.

I'm confused by all the above too. I think my latest argument for Cathars was not the VMS depiction of Montsegur but its depiction of Carcassonne:



Here's a another picture of Carcassonne, 1209:



which in turn matches modern photographs.

The Cathar fortress at Montségur was totally destroyed by the crusaders, dismantled stone by stone (looking for the VMS recipes?). The current structure on that mountain has nothing to do with the earlier Cathar fortress.

Unfortunately, the bonfire depiction of Montségur, from a medieval manuscript, does not drop down far enough to show the merlons, but the tower matches what we see in the VMS. Because of its location on top of vertical cliffs, frontal assault was unlikely if not impossible, so they could very well have made merlons of a unique design. Besides Montségur, the last of the Cathars lived in northern Itlay and I believe I discovered that one of their Italian strongholds was close to where we find M-shaped merlons, making if feasible that they introduced the design into Italy to honor those killed in the bonfire. I searched and found no proof that any of the Italian merlons predate the fall of Montségur in 1244.

Your drawing of Carcassonne has a completely different kind of roof from the VMS—it doesn't match at all.

Look more closely at the VMS drawing. The central tower is a saddleback tower, which has a very specific kind of roof that was in certain regions in the Middle Ages, and which, in some areas, had globes at the top or, in other areas, had flags on the top. This form of saddleback was frequently used to indicate portals (gates to the city).

(13-02-2018, 12:49 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your drawing of Carcassonne has a completely different kind of roof from the VMS—it doesn't match at all.

Look more closely at the VMS drawing. The central tower is a saddleback tower, which has a very specific kind of roof that was in certain regions in the Middle Ages, and which, in some areas, had globes at the top or, in other areas, had flags on the top. This form of saddleback was frequently used to indicate portals (gates to the city).

I’m quite sure the VMS depiction of Carcassonne is not a still-life landscape made while sitting outside the front door. The Cathars were expelled from Carcassonne in 1209 or thereabouts and the fortress of Montségur fell in 1244. The VMS depiction was likely made from memory going back decades.

They remembered that Carcassonne had coned towers with flag poles, that the middle tower was rectangular in shape rather than round like the ones to the side, that there were windows near the top, and they remembered the shape of the doorway under the central tower. I’m satisfied that the VMS drawing is probably depicting Carcassonne which would also correspond well with a depiction of Montségur on the same page.

Can you find a better match? I think I saw cones on some German castles.