The Voynich Ninja

(05-05-2019, 01:25 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view...
Of course, if you are going to accept creation in northern Italy during the early 15th century, you are pretty much forced to conclude that the monks did it. Who else at that time and place produced manuscripts, had access to vellum and had multiple scribes to do the writing?

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Once again you are inventing history, making it up, instead of researching it. There were many private scriptoria and studios creating manuscripts for the nobility and for wealthy merchants (especially those in Venice, Milan, and Florence and in many other places OUTSIDE of Italy). Monks most certainly did not do it all.

It seems that your shortcut solution to all the things you don't know is to simply invent what you think it is. Sorry, that doesn't wash here. Posting made-up nonsense wastes your time and ours.

(05-05-2019, 05:49 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Once again you are inventing history, making it up, instead of researching it. There were many private scriptoria and studios creating manuscripts for the nobility and for wealthy merchants (especially those in Venice, Milan, and Florence and in many other places OUTSIDE of Italy). Monks most certainly did not do it all.

It seems that your shortcut solution to all the things you don't know is to simply invent what you think it is. Sorry, that doesn't wash here. Posting made-up nonsense wastes your time and ours.

I recall having once encountered a private publication of Plutarch's Lives paid for by a nobleman of Naples, but that was in the late 15th century. As far as I know, in the early 15th century (the VMS date) Italy was still in the age of darkness when few people beyond the monks knew how to read and write. That is hardly a figment of my imagination as I am not the first or only person to make such a claim.

And writing in Italy, when done, was typically done in Latin, not in Voynichese. In fact, there appears to be no other work written in Voynichese which in itself makes it unlikely that the VMS came from Italy or anywhere else where the Inquisition oversaw publications.

I see resemblances on the style of plant depictions but possibly the VMS authors and the Italian botanists were both influenced by herbals from an earlier medieval period. Beyond the herbals, however, the VMS does not look like anything published in Italy during the 15th century.

The only one on this thread obsessing over Italian origin and constantly bringing it up is YOU. I don't necessarily think it was created in Italy. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't, but it might have been created many other places. The binding appears to be Italian but that doesn't mean it was CREATED in Italy. It could have been bound a century or two later.

You really need to realize that Voynich researchers HAVE A DIVERSITY OF OPINIONS about this manuscript. Stop painting us all with the same brush. It's impossible to have a conversation when you generalize like that.

By the 13th century there was a flourishing industry in secular scribes making manuscripts. The main reason were students at the new universities who needed copies made. 
Once the private industry was setup, the scribes quickly organised themselves and started bidding for lucretive work creating manuscripts for private buyers such as rich patrons, teachers or lawyers.

(05-05-2019, 04:23 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The only one on this thread obsessing over Italian origin and constantly bringing it up is YOU. I don't necessarily think it was created in Italy. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't, but it might have been created many other places. The binding appears to be Italian but that doesn't mean it was CREATED in Italy. It could have been bound a century or two later.

You really need to realize that Voynich researchers HAVE A DIVERSITY OF OPINIONS about this manuscript. Stop painting us all with the same brush. It's impossible to have a conversation when you generalize like that.

Agreed. Now that everyone knows that there are serious challenges to the Wikipedia narrative about northern Italy, I see no reason to continuously bring up the topic.

With Italy finally out of the way, I suggest that we try to figure out the time and place of the Aries roundtable. For one thing, I notice that a couple of the characters are wearing hats with a bubble in the middle. Are you able to find other examples of these bubble hats in your medieval manuscripts?

Here you see the two VMS bubbles followed by an extraneous sort-of-a bubble that I found on the Internet:



I suspect that the bubbles might indicate a person who was a craftsman or instructor of some type. What's your opinion on that?

The VMS figures are within barrel-like containers.

The one on the right is an illuminated initial. Illuminated initials only occasionally show craftsman. They are not specifically tied to any particular kind of scene. They can be anything.

I don't know why you are equating a barrel- or loge-like container with a large initial "G".

(05-05-2019, 09:11 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By the 13th century there was a flourishing industry in secular scribes making manuscripts. The main reason were students at the new universities who needed copies made. 
Once the private industry was setup, the scribes quickly organised themselves and started bidding for lucretive work creating manuscripts for private buyers such as rich patrons, teachers or lawyers.

David, Are you insinuating that the VMS could have been compiled by university scribes? Sure, but I've been reading that the Cathars of the 13th century were highly literate so I imagine they would not have needed the help of professional scribes. As you may or may not know, authorship by Cathars is the only sensible explanation for the survival of only a single instance of Voynichese because a massive effort was made to destroy all of their literature. Authorship by monks, sexually perverted or not, or by a mad scientist as suggested by some, are not sensible alternatives.

(06-05-2019, 12:46 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The VMS figures are within barrel-like containers.

The one on the right is an illuminated initial. Illuminated initials only occasionally show craftsman. They are not specifically tied to any particular kind of scene. They can be anything.

I don't know why you are equating a barrel- or loge-like container with a large initial "G".

JP, I was only referring to a small upward protrusion from the middle of the hats worn by all three of the depicted persons. It has nothing to do with barrels or the letter G. Do you need glasses? I use a magnifying glass to cut down on errors due to poor eyesight.

That's all you are going on? Little bumps on the hats?

The hats on the left are berets. The one on the right is what they call "cone hats". THEY ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF HATS.

I have very good eyesight, by the way.

(06-05-2019, 01:55 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's all you are going on? Little bumps on the hats?

Yes, I'm checking out those little bumps which really aren't all that little. You talk as if we have a lot to go on for identifying the authors of the VMS. Well, I have news for you: we don't. Only two of several depicted berets have those bumps, so it must signify something. I have a feeling that if we can figure out what those bumps are, we might come a little closer to identifying those people.

Of course, you are welcome to look for some other feature of their clothing or hair style or whatever that might be unique and help us to identify them. Let us know if you find anything.