(27-02-2019, 09:20 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, what are you talking about? Where is there a hat with a little circle on top? The noble person on the left (king??) is wearing a traditional metal crown with a fleur-de-lis shaped edge.
The student or prince on the right is wearing a less fancy chinstrap hat that might also be a crown. Behind him are four other boys with no hats, two of them with their faces partly obscured by his hat.
I just read somewhere that the king on the left is Domitian, a Roman emperor, so I imagine the helmets on the right are are Roman helmets. As you know, I am suffering greatly from poor resolution on my computer screen as well as from poor eyesight, which is causing me to make a lot of mistakes, but I correctly stated that manuscript itself is from the 13th century.
We find a fleur-de-lis in the VMS on You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. and it is also the form of the shield on f17r. Did use of the fleur-de-lys as a royal symbol begin with the French kings or with the Romans?
(27-02-2019, 04:29 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Actually some of those dresses seem similar to virgo and gemini at first glance
Linda, There is such a large drop in artistic quality from the depicted 15th-century manuscripts to the VMS that, for the VMS to be 15th-century Europe, one would have to assume that those dresses were drawn by young children.
(27-02-2019, 08:46 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (27-02-2019, 04:29 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Actually some of those dresses seem similar to virgo and gemini at first glance
Linda, There is such a large drop in artistic quality from the depicted 15th-century manuscripts to the VMS that, for the VMS to be 15th-century Europe, one would have to assume that those dresses were drawn by young children.
I would counter that artistic quality varies from individual to individual, and that without cultural clues, you cannot develop a timeline from such a comparison. If i am a terrible artist, it doesnt mean i lived a thousand years ago.
Rather, if i were to draw bad copies of good art, it probably means i drew them after they did. Even if i drew good copies of bad art, i still would be seen to have drawn them after the original.
(27-02-2019, 08:09 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, i apologize for misspelling your name earlier
I didn't even notice.
(27-02-2019, 08:09 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am wondering why you insist the manuscript should be created in the 13th century
There are many indications that the VMS was composed by Cathar heretics who became extinct in Europe during the 13th century.
Composition by Cathars would explain the use of encryption and would also explain, in view of Inquisition efforts to erase all memory of them, why we are finding it so hard to identify the VMS authors.
I do not place a lot of credence in the zodiac arguments of JP and Koen. Old World literature has been saturated with zodiac depictions since ancient times and, without a complete account of all astrological works across time (which we do not have), it is impossible to say with confidence that a certain design first arose on such and such a date.
Case in point: JP shows us 15th century depictions of a human Sagittarius (rather than the classical Centaur) and claims this is evidence that the VMS Sagittarius (also human) dates to the 15th century. Meanwhile, he conveniently downgrades his own depiction of a human Sagittarius dating from the 6th century. In no way does the zodiac provide a smoking gun for the 15th century.
(27-02-2019, 09:04 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[I would counter that artistic quality varies from individual to individual, and that without cultural clues, you cannot develop a timeline from such a comparison. If i am a terrible artist, it doesnt mean i lived a thousand years ago.
Rather, if i were to draw bad copies of good art, it probably means i drew them after they did. Even if i drew good copies of bad art, i still would be seen to have drawn them after the original.
If you look at all the Google depictions of 15th century manuscripts, you will notice that these manuscripts reflect a consistent artistic style. Good artist or bad artist, the VMS does not reflect the artistic style of 15th century Europe. I'm sure professional art experts or university professors of art can verify that.
(27-02-2019, 09:41 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (27-02-2019, 08:09 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, i apologize for misspelling your name earlier
I didn't even notice.
(27-02-2019, 08:09 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am wondering why you insist the manuscript should be created in the 13th century
There are many indications that the VMS was composed by Cathar heretics who became extinct in Europe during the 13th century.
Composition by Cathars would explain the use of encryption and would also explain, in view of Inquisition efforts to erase all memory of them, why we are finding it so hard to identify the VMS authors.
I do not place a lot of credence in the zodiac arguments of JP and Koen. Old World literature has been saturated with zodiac depictions since ancient times and, without a complete account of all astrological works across time (which we do not have), it is impossible to say with confidence that a certain design first arose on such and such a date.
Case in point: JP shows us 15th century depictions of a human Sagittarius (rather than the classical Centaur) and claims this is evidence that the VMS Sagittarius (also human) dates to the 15th century. Meanwhile, he conveniently downgrades his own depiction of a human Sagittarius dating from the 6th century. In no way does the zodiac provide a smoking gun for the 15th century.
If Cathars are involved i can see why you would set the date that way. But why can it not be a 15th century copy of something they wrote?
Also, how do your Cathar thoughts correspond with the Nostradamus ideas?
I dont think JKP is only going by what the design portrays but also how it is portrayed. ie style vs substance vs style and substance. I think that many of the older depictions can be picked out of the newer ones by their style.
It is like how you can tell the evolution of Superman in comics and movies, there is a certain style to each incarnation, even though the substance, letter s on chest, hair curl, etc are generally expressed in all of them. It is more difficult when you are dealing with thousands of years worth of depictions of course.
Can you show which 6th century Sagittarius you mean? Then we can specifically say what we think is the case rather than making assumptions about others' ideas of whether something should be considered or not. You could learn how to see certain style types that could assist you going forward, or the we could all consider it if your example hasn't been discussed before.
(27-02-2019, 08:27 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (27-02-2019, 09:20 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, what are you talking about? Where is there a hat with a little circle on top? The noble person on the left (king??) is wearing a traditional metal crown with a fleur-de-lis shaped edge.
The student or prince on the right is wearing a less fancy chinstrap hat that might also be a crown. Behind him are four other boys with no hats, two of them with their faces partly obscured by his hat.
I just read somewhere that the king on the left is Domitian, a Roman emperor, so I imagine the helmets on the right are are Roman helmets. As you know, I am suffering greatly from poor resolution on my computer screen as well as from poor eyesight, which is causing me to make a lot of mistakes, but I correctly stated that manuscript itself is from the 13th century.
We find a fleur-de-lis in the VMS on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and it is also the form of the shield on f17r. Did use of the fleur-de-lys as a royal symbol begin with the French kings or with the Romans?
Morten there ARE NO HELMETS on the right. There is a boy, a student, possibly a prince, wearing a chinstrap crown with a flat top, like the example I posted above. And there are three more boys WITH NO HATS. There are NO HELMETS.
Morten, I understand about the poor vision. You mentioned it before. That's why I took the clips of the picture and enlarged them in my previous posts.
There is no evidence that the manuscript is from the 13th century. People in the 13th century could NOT have anticipated 15th century clothing and zodiac styles.
(27-02-2019, 09:55 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
If you look at all the Google depictions of 15th century manuscripts, you will notice that these manuscripts reflect a consistent artistic style. Good artist or bad artist, the VMS does not reflect the artistic style of 15th century Europe. I'm sure professional art experts or university professors of art can verify that.
You are assuming there are no professional art experts or university professors in the Voynich community. Your assumption is wrong.
(27-02-2019, 11:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.YOU are a cherry-picker. You pick ONE example from the 6th century that is OUT OF CHARACTER with the other examples from the 6th century and then you use that as an example to negate all the rest? That is preposterous.
I cherry-picked that Sagittarius drawing for a reason. As I have been saying, the encryption wheels on You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. may have been influenced by Merkabah mysticism of the first millennium, which in turn could have some connection to that Hebrew Sagittarius found in Israel. Thus, though distant in time and place, the two Sagittarii may be connected.
![[Image: img-vms-sagittarius-source.jpg]](http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/img-vms-sagittarius-source.jpg)
In both cases I see a bloke wearing a skirt, some type of headgear, comfortable footwear, and drawn arrow ready to fire. It is easy enough to imagine an evolution from A to B across six or seven centuries.
You date it to the 6th century. Do you have a precise date for it? I have reasons to believe that it would have been more likely to appear during the 7th century.
(28-02-2019, 02:05 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (27-02-2019, 11:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.YOU are a cherry-picker. You pick ONE example from the 6th century that is OUT OF CHARACTER with the other examples from the 6th century and then you use that as an example to negate all the rest? That is preposterous.
I cherry-picked that Sagittarius drawing for a reason. As I have been saying, the encryption wheels on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may have been influenced by Merkabah mysticism of the first millennium, which in turn could have some connection to that Hebrew Sagittarius found in Israel. Thus, though distant in time and place, the two Sagittarii may be connected.
In both cases I see a bloke wearing a skirt, some type of headgear, comfortable footwear, and drawn arrow ready to fire. It is easy enough to imagine an evolution from A to B across six or seven centuries.
You date it to the 6th century. Do you have a precise date for it? I have reasons to believe that it would have been more likely to appear during the 7th century.
The fact that it has legs is IRRELEVANT to a conversation about which zodiacs have the largest number of figures that match the VMS. The Beit Alpha mosaics do not pass this test. Plus, it has been covered over for centuries and has only recently been re-discovered. Secondly, I did COMBINATION searches on groups of thematic patterns, which is FAR more important than picking out a single example.
You didn't even pick a good example. The Beit Alpha Sagittarius does NOT have a long-tailed cap, does NOT have wide sleeves, does NOT have pleats, does NOT have bootlaces, and does NOT have a crossbow.
You are a cherry-picker. You CANNOT do good research by picking ONLY the one that suits your purposes (one that isn't even very similar) and ignore the rest. That is what you are doing.
That's not research. That's simply pleasing yourself and reaffirming your own assumptions.