(25-02-2019, 12:59 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
The situation is that you have been trying to associate the VMS with 15th century Europe when you should really be looking at 13th century Europe.
No, you are are wrong. I have not being trying to associate the VMS with 15th century Europe. I DON'T CARE when it was made. I DON'T CARE where it was made. I would LOVE it if it were made in the 13th century, which is an interesting period of history, but there are no signs of 13th century writing or drawing or technology in the VMS. Early medieval manuscripts have a certain look and feel that is clearly recognizable and the VMS doesn't ring true for the 13th century.
The EVIDENCE points to 15th century and more than likely the Old World. I have no choice in the matter. The data leads where it leads.
You are following a hypothesis. Hypotheses can be misleading. More often than not, a premature hypothesis, that is formed before there is sufficient knowledge to formulate it, ends up leading a person astray.
(25-02-2019, 12:59 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have been repeatedly trying to explain to you that European protestants (under the duress of severe persecution in Europe) migrated to the New World in the 13th century.
Morten St. George,
There are two things I don't understand. I'm very confused.
1) For me, the birth of protestantism began in the 16th century with Martin Luther.
Or did you mean they migrated to the New world in the 16th century ?
2) Migration to the New world before Colombus is probable (Erik the red, Chinese army) but I don't think there was a migration in the 13th century.
(25-02-2019, 03:03 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (25-02-2019, 12:59 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
The situation is that you have been trying to associate the VMS with 15th century Europe when you should really be looking at 13th century Europe.
No, you are are wrong. I have not being trying to associate the VMS with 15th century Europe. I DON'T CARE when it was made. I DON'T CARE where it was made. I would LOVE it if it were made in the 13th century, which is an interesting period of history, but there are no signs of 13th century writing or drawing or technology in the VMS. Early medieval manuscripts have a certain look and feel that is clearly recognizable and the VMS doesn't ring true for the 13th century.
The EVIDENCE points to 15th century and more than likely the Old World. I have no choice in the matter. The data leads where it leads.
You are following a hypothesis. Hypotheses can be misleading. More often than not, a premature hypothesis, that is formed before there is sufficient knowledge to formulate it, ends up leading a person astray.
First of all, let's clarify that my primary objective is to demonstrate that the VMS marginalia provides valuable information for decoding the VMS. It is not to establish the New World origin of the VMS. The decoding efforts remain applicable regardless of when or where the VMS was composed.
There is no denying that the VMS is linked to Europe. We see a Roman bath, a mountaintop castle, a chateau with saddleback roof, and medieval clothing. But, as far as I am aware, there is nothing there that would definitively place the composition of the VMS in the 15th century as opposed to the 13th century. If you know of something, please let us know what it is.
In view of the possibility that the VMS could be a copy of an earlier manuscript (few visible corrections and a multitude of hands suggest this), the radiocarbon dating does not tell us when the VMS script was created. It only tells us that the script was created
no later than the early 15th century.
During the Crusades, medieval boats appear to have had no problem traveling from England to the Holy Land and back, so surely they were capable of crossing the Atlantic. During the same epoch, European heretics known as Cathars were being hunted down and burned alive wherever found. If anyone ever had motive to flee Europe, surely these Cathars did. Did I ever mention that the VMS depicts a Cathar baptismal ceremony on f80v?
(25-02-2019, 11:44 PM)Paris Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten St. George,
There are two things I don't understand. I'm very confused.
1) For me, the birth of protestantism began in the 16th century with Martin Luther.
Or did you mean they migrated to the New world in the 16th century ?
2) Migration to the New world before Colombus is probable (Erik the red, Chinese army) but I don't think there was a migration in the 13th century.
Sorry to have confused you. I was referring to a heresy called Catharism which flourished in southern France during the 12th and 13th centuries. It was a true protestant religion, but wound up violently exterminated by the Roman Church.
Obviously, the 13th-century departure to the New World was done in secret, so that the Crusaders (who were hunting down the Cathars) would not find out about it and then cross the Atlantic in pursuit.
In wild speculation, I once imagined that the Church finally found about the Cathar escape in 1492, likely from the torture of the Jews who were then expelled from Spain. Thus, the Spanish royalty promptly changed their mind about not funding Columbus, and sent him out to sea on the secret mission (unknown to Columbus himself) of searching for the Cathars.
(26-02-2019, 04:15 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is no denying that the VMS is linked to Europe. We see a Roman bath, a mountaintop castle, a chateau with saddleback roof, and medieval clothing. But, as far as I am aware, there is nothing there that would definitively place the composition of the VMS in the 15th century as opposed to the 13th century. If you know of something, please let us know what it is.
Yes there is. They couldn't have created it in the 13th century. They would have to be wizards with crystal balls, able to see the future.
The zodiac figure styles and themes, and the clothing styles depicted in the VMS, did not exist until the late 14th and 15th centuries.
Styles change. I'm sure you don't wear shoulder-length wigs, codpieces, and ruffled sleeves made of hand-crafted lace. Styles are very important indicators of time periods.
(26-02-2019, 04:15 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
During the Crusades, medieval boats appear to have had no problem traveling from England to the Holy Land and back, so surely they were capable of crossing the Atlantic. ..
A sailor would consider this to be a very poor argument.
Following coastlines, or island-hopping (e.g., from Hibernia to Iceland), where you can stop for food and water every few days (or at least within a reasonable period of time), is very very different from sailing across the middle of a vast ocean with no guarantee of finding land before supplies run out.
Most of the discoveries of new lands were not made by explorers. They were made by fishermen who plied the waters every day, sometimes venturing a little farther than usual or being blown off course. It was whalers who discovered most of the islands in the arctic and who brought back stories of their adventures.
Once they knew the land was there, explorers and colonists followed. The Vikings were quite possibly preceded by Basque whalers. Basque oral history includes stories of the discovery of a new world. They traveled to Iceland so frequently that many of them knew a bit of Icelandic. Unfortunately, early fishermen were not usually literate, so we don't have a lot of written testimony, although they did sometimes leave charts.
(26-02-2019, 05:35 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (26-02-2019, 04:15 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is no denying that the VMS is linked to Europe. We see a Roman bath, a mountaintop castle, a chateau with saddleback roof, and medieval clothing. But, as far as I am aware, there is nothing there that would definitively place the composition of the VMS in the 15th century as opposed to the 13th century. If you know of something, please let us know what it is.
Yes there is. They couldn't have created it in the 13th century. They would have to be wizards with crystal balls, able to see the future.
The zodiac figure styles and themes, and the clothing styles depicted in the VMS, did not exist until the late 14th and 15th centuries.
Styles change. I'm sure you don't wear shoulder-length wigs, codpieces, and ruffled sleeves made of hand-crafted lace. Styles are very important indicators of time periods.
I was thinking the saddleback roofs would have been your best chance, but then I found evidence of them in Switzerland and Belgium for the 12th century.
The clothing looks like classical medieval of the artisan class, so I think you need to be more specific.
The same applies to the zodiac signs which date back to ancient times. It made sense to change Sagittarius which, as a ridiculous mythological creature, would not be credible for potential converts. Meanwhile, let's alter the Scorpion too because it was a creature known to and much feared by potential converts.
The Inquisition burned more than all the books written by the Cathars; it also burned all the books in their libraries. Keep in mind that they likely had sources unknown to you.
(26-02-2019, 05:43 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (26-02-2019, 04:15 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
During the Crusades, medieval boats appear to have had no problem traveling from England to the Holy Land and back, so surely they were capable of crossing the Atlantic. ..
A sailor would consider this to be a very poor argument.
Following coastlines, or island-hopping (e.g., from Hibernia to Iceland), where you can stop for food and water every few days (or at least within a reasonable period of time), is very very different from sailing across the middle of a vast ocean with no guarantee of finding land before supplies run out.
Most of the discoveries of new lands were not made by explorers. They were made by fishermen who plied the waters every day, sometimes venturing a little farther than usual or being blown off course. It was whalers who discovered most of the islands in the arctic and who brought back stories of their adventures.
Once they knew the land was there, explorers and colonists followed. The Vikings were quite possibly preceded by Basque whalers. Basque oral history includes stories of the discovery of a new world. They traveled to Iceland so frequently that many of them knew a bit of Icelandic. Unfortunately, early fishermen were not usually literate, so we don't have a lot of written testimony, although they did sometimes leave charts.
The Cathar option was a) stay in Europe and be burned at the stake, or b) take your chances on the open seas. Moreover, being in possession of ancient Greek and Arabic books on geography, they may have had reason to believe there was land on the other side of the ocean.
(26-02-2019, 07:33 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (26-02-2019, 05:35 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (26-02-2019, 04:15 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is no denying that the VMS is linked to Europe. We see a Roman bath, a mountaintop castle, a chateau with saddleback roof, and medieval clothing. But, as far as I am aware, there is nothing there that would definitively place the composition of the VMS in the 15th century as opposed to the 13th century. If you know of something, please let us know what it is.
Yes there is. They couldn't have created it in the 13th century. They would have to be wizards with crystal balls, able to see the future.
The zodiac figure styles and themes, and the clothing styles depicted in the VMS, did not exist until the late 14th and 15th centuries.
Styles change. I'm sure you don't wear shoulder-length wigs, codpieces, and ruffled sleeves made of hand-crafted lace. Styles are very important indicators of time periods.
I was thinking the saddleback roofs would have been your best chance, but then I found evidence of them in Switzerland and Belgium for the 12th century.
The clothing looks like classical medieval of the artisan class, so I think you need to be more specific.
The same applies to the zodiac signs which date back to ancient times. It made sense to change Sagittarius which, as a ridiculous mythological creature, would not be credible for potential converts. Meanwhile, let's alter the Scorpion too because it was a creature known to and much feared by potential converts.
...
You clearly haven't really looked at these things. I've written a dozen blogs on the evolution of zodiac symbols, posted maps, examples, collected 500 zodiac series, studied them for the last decade. The VMS figure themes ARE VERY SPECIFIC TYPES and do not go back to ancient times or even to early medieval times.
Koen has written about the fashions. I suggest you read his blog.
(26-02-2019, 07:37 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Cathar option was a) stay in Europe and be burned at the stake, or b) take your chances on the open seas. Moreover, being in possession of ancient Greek and Arabic books on geography, they may have had reason to believe there was land on the other side of the ocean.
I'm beginning to feel like you live in a fantasy world.
It DOESN'T MATTER if there is land on the other side of the ocean if you're only halfway across when you run out of food and water.
Plus, even if ships took to the seas, it doesn't mean they got there.
And you never responded to the most important point, which is that they could not have written a book full of 15th-century themes in the 13th century.
(26-02-2019, 09:33 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And you never responded to the most important point, which is that they could not have written a book full of 15th-century themes in the 13th century.
I imagine the following would be common themes found in manuscripts of the early 15th century:
i. Biblical and other religious scenes in elegant illustration
ii. Weapons, soldiers, and the Hundred Years War
iii. Plague and the Black Death
I see none of the above in the VMS.
If there were botanical manuscripts, I would be willing to bet that they depict real, identifiable plants quite unlike the fantasy plants seen in the VMS.
Most of all, you are unable to find another instance of the use of Voynichese script anywhere in the Old World during the 15th century or during any century for that matter.
Your problem is that you fail to realize that a despotic religion went on a massive book-burning spree during the 13th and 14th centuries. So now you find new illustrations in the 15th century and wrongly conclude that is when such illustrations originated.
PS. Where can I find Koen's blog?