The Voynich Ninja

I think you all should keep in mind that the pangolin/armadillo is very likely nothing but an ordinary sheep or ram

Helmut, it might be a lamb, a sacrificial lamb (cloudband) or a golden fleece.

But I think the point is that the "New World" researchers (Janick and Tucker) are using the armadillo identification as one of their arguments that the manuscript is a New World creation. One can't make that argument if there is an Old World animal that looks more like the VMS drawing than the armadillo (for example, a pangolin).

(05-12-2018, 11:12 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Helmut, it might be a lamb, a sacrificial lamb (cloudband) or a golden fleece.

But I think the point is that the "New World" researchers (Janick and Tucker) are using the armadillo identification as one of their arguments that the manuscript is a New World creation. One can't make that argument if there is an Old World animal that looks more like the VMS drawing than the armadillo (for example, a pangolin).

JKP, you are quite right of course

(04-12-2018, 10:09 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's nonsense. They were uncommon, but they were not unknown. Physician's manuals were sometimes designed as foldouts. Charts and maps were sometimes designed as foldouts (maps sometimes were intended to remain unbound, especially large ones, but some have been bound as foldouts).

Thanks JP. I guess you can't believe everything you read.

(04-12-2018, 10:09 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Some of the Carthusian manuscripts from the south are extremely professional, but some of the Carthusian manuscripts from remote towns in the north have quite humble but charming drawings. Plus, you can't compare studio and scriptorium-created manuscripts with the VMS. You have to compare the "home-grown" manuscripts (and those that haven't been digitized yet) with the VMS. The nicer manuscripts tend to be digitized and put online first.

On the basis of style, in which European country or town do you think the VMS was written?

(04-12-2018, 10:09 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do herbal manuscripts (remember, the VMS is PRIMARILY plants) have religious and military themes? No.

I was under the impression that in sharp contrast to the VMS, which I believe depicts fantasy plants to facilitate religious conversion by missionaries, European manuscripts tend to depict real plants identifiable as such. Is that true about European manuscripts, that they depict real plants, and, if so, how do you explain VMS divergence from the norm?

(04-12-2018, 10:09 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My experience has been that the more I delve into the VMS, the MORE support I find for 15th-century authorship. The signposts are adding up.

In contrast to Tucker and Janick, who apparently place redaction of the VMS in the 16th century, I am a firm supporter of the radiocarbon dating.

(04-12-2018, 09:27 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I guess you're not familiar with the details of plants or of other plants that look similar to the "sunflower" so you just accept at face value a questionable ID.

I think I read somewhere that the VMS sunflower was first identified as a sunflower not by Tucker and Janick but by great botanical experts from the first half of the 20th century. No?

I also read that the sunflower is a native American plant unknown in Europe until Columbus brought it back so, even if the VMS drawings of the sunflower aren't perfect, I'd say those drawings were more likely made by someone who had seen a real sunflower than by someone who had never seen a real sunflower.

Real plants in the VMS are more likely to be depicted in the pharmaceutical section than on the single-plant pages. That's where you will find the jalapeno peppers that merit further study.

(04-12-2018, 09:56 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The armadillo is the least likely candidate.

Here's a VMS drawing of a native American teepee made out of armadillo skin:



I classify you guys as "defenders of the faith" 

Morten, one thing I agree upon is that for a manuscript with 400+ human figures, the VM shows very little signs of christian and by extension medieval cultural elements. 

BUT that doesn't mean it must be American. It doesn't show any American cultural elements either. 

What it does mean is that by some circumstance, relatively little references to a specific culture and religion have been included. Luckily there are exceptions which allow us to safely assign the creation of the MS to the exact period indicated by the radio carbon dating, most notably the dress of the human Zodiac figures.

I don't think the fact that over half the MS is about plants is a good argument. That the manuscript shows so few unambiguos signs of christianity and everyday medieval culture in its hundreds of human figures is excepional, and I am yet to see a decent parallel for this. But it doesnt show signs of American cultural elements either, so it cannot be used as an argument to support your claims. And there are some signs of medieval Europe, just not the amount we'd expet with this much human activity going on in the MS.

Funny side note: Tucker actually names the artist who drew the images in the VM,  and he is mostly known for decorating churches with Christian scenes. 

The sunflower is not a sunflower, its leaves are wrong. It is more likely a cereal crop.

(05-12-2018, 04:53 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(04-12-2018, 09:27 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I guess you're not familiar with the details of plants or of other plants that look similar to the "sunflower" so you just accept at face value a questionable ID.

I think I read somewhere that the VMS sunflower was first identified as a sunflower not by Tucker and Janick but by great botanical experts from the first half of the 20th century. No?

I also read that the sunflower is a native American plant unknown in Europe until Columbus brought it back so, even if the VMS drawings of the sunflower aren't perfect, I'd say those drawings were more likely made by someone who had seen a real sunflower than by someone who had never seen a real sunflower.

Real plants in the VMS are more likely to be depicted in the pharmaceutical section than on the single-plant pages. That's where you will find the jalapeno peppers that merit further study.

You're making the same logical error that a lot of people make. First of all you are assuming the SCALE of the plant. We don't know the scale of the plants. The scale may vary. Then you are assuming that there are no Old World plants similar to the sunflower. In fact, many African plants have this same form.

If someone who doesn't know anything about foxes and wolves, who is only familiar with domestic dogs saw a fox in the grass, they would probably assume it was a dog of some kind and THAT is the main mistake I see in people making plant IDs. As soon as they see something FAMILIAR, they stop, and they fail to consider that there might be plants UNfamiliar to them that also look that way.


And by the way, I do agree with Koen that one of the IDs for the "sunflower" that should be considered is a cereal crop. The leaves are right and the many small circles might represent grain kernels in a conceptual way (tipped over to show they are round and that there are many of them).

(05-12-2018, 05:13 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.BUT that doesn't mean it must be American. It doesn't show any American cultural elements either. 

Gosh, didn't you see the native American teepee that I just posted? Tucker and Janick claim that it is a smoking volcano from Mexico but smoke isn't usually depicted rising in three distinct directions from a single source. Meanwhile, I have found many depictions of native American teepees with three crisscrossed logs coming out of an open top. I would also point out that the pattern of alternating colors seen on the vials is more typically native American than European for the late Middle Ages.

I have suspicions that the VMS was originally much larger than it is today and that the Rosicrucian owners removed all the pages depicting native Americans and their culture. They would have been most concerned about the survival of the prophecies encoded into the stars sections and rightly concluded that depictions of native Americans would not be helpful. I think they simply overlooked the teepee or didn't recognize it for what it was and that's why it's still there.

As I have been saying since the beginning of this thread, French heretics, to escape persecution in Europe, migrated to the Americas during the 13th century. Since they did not believe in procreation, they would have become extinct within a few decades after arrival, but not before making native American converts who would have conserved their writings across several generations into the future.

I grew up around teepees and they don't look very much like that.