The Voynich Ninja

There used to be about a thousand castles on the Rhine built above steep (sometimes VERY steep) slopes. And that's just one river.

Why do you keep insisting you know which tower it is when there are so many different drawings of the Cathar burning, all with different towers? Towers on clifftops are COMMON.

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Maybe I should have looked around the Web first before getting drawn into this thread:

"This website presents page after page of evidence that the Earth was visited by an alien astronaut during the sixth century. The evidence is archaeological, historical, and literary, and it all points to same alien astronaut."    --- mortenstgeorge.info

(05-03-2019, 03:51 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="Linda" pid='25182' dateline='1551768034']



PHILIP II AUGUSTUS, 1165-1223, watches heretics burn during the Crusade against the Albigensians in 1209, manuscript illumination from the Grandes Chroniques de St Denis, c. 1400

It was pretty specific about not being your bonfire. So it would make no difference to discuss whether or not this spire or that matches the vms unless you want to move your massacre down to this one, but even then, they are likely imagined, since it is 200 years later.

Quote:I've given you a "like" because I really appreciate seeing the full page.

Thanks.

Quote:Wikipedia says: "When Pope Innocent III called for a crusade against the "Albigensians," or Cathars, in Languedoc in 1208, Philip did nothing to support it, though he did not stop his nobles from joining in."

Please tell us where Philip personally oversaw the burning of Cathars so that we can identify the mountaintop fortress seen in the background. Thanks.

I only quoted the info that came with the drawing, i dont know if this occurred or is imagined but real or not the scene is set before 1223 for him to be depicted there.

Quote:I thought kings were normally depicted wearing a crown whether they were actually wearing one at the moment or not. Why isn't Philip II depicted with a crown?

What can i say, i was not there, when it happened nor when it was written.

Quote:Lastly, please tell us which part of the manuscript text you translate as saying "PHILIP II AUGUSTUS, 1165-1223, watches heretics burn during the Crusade against the Albigensians in 1209." I can read French and am having trouble seeing that description, or even an approximation of that description for that matter.

It came from here

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Quote:Also note that publication date is not the same as creation date (a common confusion in this forum) as the artist here was very likely copying a much older drawing.

That may well be, but in many cases updated drawings update the clothing and architecture as well. As i said, i noticed the 15th century hats, surely they werent wearing them in the early 1200s. You would need to find that illustration. But the point is moot since it is not likely Montsegur.

Time to evacuate. Beam me up, Scotty.

So it is likely an imagined scene in its entirety

From wiki

The military actions surrounding the Albigensian Crusade helped prepare the expansion of France southward. Philip did not participate directly in these actions, but he allowed his vassals and knights to help carry it out.


Also french wiki says chronicle of st denis done around 1250, completed 1285, it got added to after that as well with things that happened after 1223. It was a compendium of history from fall of troy to life of phillip ii.

Therefore its initial incarnation would not have included info from 1244.

(05-03-2019, 06:00 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Time to evacuate. Beam me up, Scotty.

Aw, do i havta? It's still light out.

(05-03-2019, 06:10 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(05-03-2019, 06:00 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Time to evacuate. Beam me up, Scotty.

Aw, do i havta? It's still light out.

At your own risk 

(05-03-2019, 06:00 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I only quoted the info that came with the drawing, i dont know if this occurred or is imagined but real or not the scene is set before 1223 for him to be depicted there.

A couple of the Cathar websites, which give every appearance of being quite reputable, display that illustration on their Montségur page. I doubt they would have done that (though I wouldn't say it was impossible) if the manuscript clearly indicated that it was not Montségur. They simply could have used that image elsewhere as another instance of Cathar persecution.

Are you sure that Shutterstock, or whoever supplied that image to them, did not invent that description as a selling point? Or out of the manuscript's failure to identify the scene? Have you found someone in that illustration who unambiguously matches another depiction of Philip II?

In 1209 (the date you give) the Albigensian crusaders undertook the siege of the city of Beziers (clearly not depicted here) where thousands of Cathars were killed by the sword, not by bonfire burning. Consequently, your description is historically inaccurate: there was no bonfire burning during that year nor did Philip show up in the south of France at the time (nor, as far I can determine, at any time prior to his death). In fact, Montségur, some 35 years later, may be one of the few or perhaps the only major instance of bonfire burning of the Cathars.

I don't know about the hats. As we learned from attempts to identify the archer's hat, hat catalogs are hard to find during the Middle Ages. I suspect there can be no certainty about when a particular style was first used. JP and Koen might be able to shed more light on this.

(05-03-2019, 06:05 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So it is likely an imagined scene in its entirety

From wiki

The military actions surrounding the Albigensian Crusade helped prepare the expansion of France southward. Philip did not participate directly in these actions, but he allowed his vassals and knights to help carry it out.

Also french wiki says chronicle of st denis done around 1250, completed 1285, it got added to after that as well with things that happened after 1223. It was a compendium of history from fall of troy to life of phillip ii.

Therefore its initial incarnation would not have included info from 1244.

If that illustration was made between 1250 and 1285, it most certainly could have been made by someone who was an eyewitness to the fall of Montségur in 1244, and I think it was. Who else would depict a sling catapult on top of the mountain?

(05-03-2019, 07:40 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.PHILIP II AUGUSTUS, 1165-1223, watches heretics burn during the Crusade against the Albigensians in 1209, manuscript illumination from the Grandes Chroniques de St Denis, c. 1400

It was pretty specific about not being your bonfire. So it would make no difference to discuss whether or not this spire or that matches the vms unless you want to move your massacre down to this one, but even then, they are likely imagined, since it is 200 years later.

I suppose it is from one of the many versions of the Grande Chronique and derived manuscripts. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

There may be a conflation of two separate episodes because the text below the illustration identifies the king "Philippe Dieudonné" a.k.a. Philippe II Auguste and the heretics: "amauriciens" (Almaricians), the disciples of Amaury de Bène. However the scenery does not look much like Paris (where 10 heretics were burned in 1210), with the generic rock or mountain in the background... The description matches the illustration from the Bibliothèque municipale de Lyon, Ms P.A. 30 (another version of the Grande Chronique de France) : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the illustrations posted by JKP.

(1st link) The first version (offered to king Philippe III in 1274) stops at year 1223.
(2nd link) This later version of the Chronicle stops at year 1380.

(05-03-2019, 08:19 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="Linda" pid='25194' dateline='1551805210']
I only quoted the info that came with the drawing, i dont know if this occurred or is imagined but real or not the scene is set before 1223 for him to be depicted there.

Quote:A couple of the Cathar websites, which give every appearance of being quite reputable, display that illustration on their Montségur page. I doubt they would have done that (though I wouldn't say it was impossible) if the manuscript clearly indicated that it was not Montségur. They simply could have used that image elsewhere as another instance of Cathar persecution.

I can't really speak to the ethics of webpage image use across Cathar information pages...i am pretty sure most don't go that far into it, if they like a pic they will use it, just as you have, without actually knowing where it came from.

Quote:Are you sure that Shutterstock, or whoever supplied that image to them, did not invent that description as a selling point? Or out of the manuscript's failure to identify the scene? Have you found someone in that illustration who unambiguously matches another depiction of Philip II?

What kind of question is that to ask of me? Ask them.

Since i dont believe in your theory, and i also dont care what Phillip looked like, you need to do this research if it matters to you, but i will say that i dont think it matters in any case.

Quote:In 1209 (the date you give) the Albigensian crusaders undertook the siege of the city of Beziers (clearly not depicted here) where thousands of Cathars were killed by the sword, not by bonfire burning. Consequently, your description is historically inaccurate: there was no bonfire burning during that year nor did Philip show up in the south of France at the time (nor, as far I can determine, at any time prior to his death). In fact, Montségur, some 35 years later, may be one of the few or perhaps the only major instance of bonfire burning of the Cathars.

The date shutterstock gives.
Their description is inadequate, i copied and pasted it, that is all.
Im sure there would not be a list of burnings from which to verify a particular one, or even if there were, that it would contain each one. 
You are free to think what you like, but it doesnt make you right about what you are saying.

Quote:I don't know about the hats. As we learned from attempts to identify the archer's hat, hat catalogs are hard to find during the Middle Ages. I suspect there can be no certainty about when a particular style was first used. JP and Koen might be able to shed more light on this.

They already have.