(26-09-2019, 03:54 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I choose door number 3, and she is a naked topper on a wedding cake depicted in the waves of Atlantis 
I considered the possibility of a wedding cake in place of a throne made out of plant debris, but it seems there just weren't many men around! Besides, she sure looks like she wants to be queen.
The Cathar "heresy" certainly appears in popular tradition until the early to mid 15th century when it finally disappears, crushed under the weight of the Catholic church.
A similar tradition continues through the Bogomil Balkanic sect, which was quite popular until it was eradicated by the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans in the mid 15th century.
The debate really is whether the Italians continued with Cathari, or whether we are seeing echoes in the Inquisitorial records of Bogomilic influences carried over the waters.
Of course, given the Cathar aversion towards copulation in any form, it is unlikely that the VM is a product of this tradition.
(26-09-2019, 08:17 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Cathar "heresy" certainly appears in popular tradition until the early to mid 15th century when it finally disappears, crushed under the weight of the Catholic church. A similar tradition continues through the Bogomil Balkanic sect, which was quite popular until it was eradicated by the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans in the mid 15th century. The debate really is whether the Italians continued with Cathari, or whether we are seeing echoes in the Inquisitorial records of Bogomilic influences carried over the waters.
For me, the most pertinent debate concerns whether or not the "great treasure" that escaped the siege of Montségur (pictured in the VMS) in 1244 were the prophecies encoded into quire 20.
I think JP may have been confusing Catharism with other heresies but it doesn't matter much. In MSG Theory, an undetermined number of Cathars merged with an undetermined number of Cabalists (who provided encryption techniques) after the fall of Montségur and a group of their women set off for the Americas. Previously I thoughtlessly indicated that they wanted to escape torture and death. In truth they likely had no such fears: they would have welcomed martyrdom because they believed it would bring them eternal bliss in the afterlife.
But the writings of their god (the "Good God" as contrasted with the Evil God of the Roman Church) were another matter. Those writings certainly could have been viewed as something that needed to be preserved. For that reason alone, they may have attempted to cross the Atlantic.
Catharism in Mexico was likely exterminated by the Aztecs upon expansion of their empire in the 15th century. Any elements of Catharism that may have survived the Aztecs would certainly have been erased by the Spanish Inquisition in the following century. For sure, there could have been more books written in Voynichese that were simply burned. It was Inquisition policy not to remind the natives of prior idolatries so they would have left no record of the books they destroyed.
(26-09-2019, 08:17 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Of course, given the Cathar aversion towards copulation in any form, it is unlikely that the VM is a product of this tradition.
You might be hitting upon the reason only women were chosen to make the transatlantic crossing. By eliminating all possibility for copulation, they were likewise eliminating childbirth as a factor that could upset their escape from the material world and its endless cycle of rebirth.
As in Europe where the Cathars always strove to make new converts, the European Cathars in America (prior to becoming extinct by lack of offspring) would have endeavored to make converts of the native Americans, who would have been taught the art of parchment making and how to make copies of the sacred writings brought over from Europe. In MSG Theory, one of those copies is our VMS.
I have studied the Cathers' for quite some time, and i am curious as to when you think they crossed the Atlantic?
(27-09-2019, 12:04 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have studied the Cathers' for quite some time, and i am curious as to when you think they crossed the Atlantic?
You are asking me to reveal one of the greatest secrets of medieval times which is hardly something that I could know. A massive effort was made to track down the escapees of Montségur (14 March 1244) but neither they nor the great treasure they carried with them were ever found.
In my fantasies, the Spanish Inquisition did find out where those Cathars went but only some two and one half centuries later, possibly revealed to them under torture by a people who were promptly expelled. And at roughly the same time, a decision not to provide funding for a transatlantic crossing was reversed. In the given scenario, Columbus, unbeknownst to him, would have been put out to sea not to reach the Far East but to find the Cathars.
It may seem wholly incredulous that centuries later the Inquisition still wanted to hunt down and kill the Cathars but that reflects ignorance of what was going on. It was perceived as the eternal battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil, though which side was which is a matter of open debate. For the Roman Church, the writings of the Good God of the Cathari were the workings of the Devil Himself and had to be destroyed at all costs.
The Cathars were said to have sympathizers among the Knights Templar, who in the 13th century operated a fleet of ships off the Atlantic coast of France. It is remotely possible that the Knights could have provided a group of Cathars with a boat.
The Cathars also had friends among the Cabalists of Gerona (home of the great Nachmanides until 1263) which lies on the other side of the mountains from Montségur, and there they might have received help for acquiring a boat.
On the other hand, investigations into the origin of VMS encryption point us to the Spanish city of Toledo and to a Spanish king called Alfonso the Wise. Alfonso became king in 1252 and in the following year he conquered southern Portugal, holding possession of that region until 1263. Southern Portugal would have been an ideal point of departure for a transatlantic journey.
In conclusion, we have no idea when that group of Cathar women migrated to America other than it might have been between 1244 and 1263.
I think this is the moment to bring Oak Island into the story ...
(27-09-2019, 12:04 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have studied the Cathers' for quite some time, and i am curious as to when you think they crossed the Atlantic?
Despite the Cathar heresy being predominant mainly amongst the peasantry after the Albigensian crusade, they were well known for their interest in advanced navigation, food storage systems and boat building.
(27-09-2019, 05:37 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (27-09-2019, 12:04 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have studied the Cathers' for quite some time, and i am curious as to when you think they crossed the Atlantic?
Despite the Cathar heresy being predominant mainly amongst the peasantry after the Albigensian crusade, they were well known for their interest in advanced navigation, food storage systems and boat building.
You seem to be insinuating that maybe the Cathars built their own ship for crossing the Atlantic. I never gave much consideration to such a possbility. Montségur was their last stronghold and by then Inquisition spies were probably everywhere. Maybe in southern Portugal when it was under the control Alfonso the Wise they could have had enough cover to build their own boat.
With knowledge of the crossing attempt apparently never reaching the Inquisition of the 13th century, it makes a lot of sense that the Cathars would have acquired a boat (or perhaps could have built a boat) with help from either the Jewish or Islamic communities of Spain.
It's known that the Cathars taught trade skills such as parchment making and sewing to their converts. I never saw boat building mentioned in that context but it is easy to imagine that people with those skills could have joined their ranks.
Cathar capabilities in the fields of food storage and long-term survival on minimal amounts of food and water were put into evidence in the prolonged siege of Montségur. Such abilities surely add confidence for a transatlantic attempt. Having had contact with Arabic sciences via the Toledo translators, the Cathars would have known that the world is round and that there was hope of reaching the other side of the ocean.
Sorry, I was being facetious
. Won't happen again!