Morten St. George > 24-09-2019, 05:57 AM
(24-09-2019, 01:29 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If the carbon dating of the VMS is from 1402-1435 the Cathars were already gone. And the Jews were not exiled from Spain until around 1492 heading to the Americas, so it is a different unknown dialect before the fall of Constantinople. The flower page where everyone seems to think is a sunflower You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is actually a King Protea and used to gather nectar for making a honey syrup for making cakes.
-JKP- > 24-09-2019, 08:48 AM
Morten St. George > 25-09-2019, 02:00 AM
(24-09-2019, 05:31 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(24-09-2019, 01:29 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. everyone seems to think is a sunflower f93r
I'd replace "everyone" with "a few theorists" in that sentence
Morten St. George > 25-09-2019, 02:24 AM
(24-09-2019, 08:48 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The critters in the VMS are not drawn well enough to identify most of them. Plus, it was the custom at the time to draw many mythical animals or "generic" animals that were not intended to be any particular animal. You can't assume what they are just because you want to place them in the context of a North American swamp. Besides, even if it were swamp water, there are swamps all over Europe too, including in some of the hotter regions.
-JKP- > 25-09-2019, 07:51 AM
(25-09-2019, 02:24 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Your counterclaim is that a scaly animal has been found to exist in central Africa and also in China. Since you have provided no evidence at all that such an animal was known in Europe during the Middle Ages, I view your counterclaim as sheer demagoguery, not as science.
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Monica Yokubinas > 25-09-2019, 02:38 PM
(25-09-2019, 02:24 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(24-09-2019, 08:48 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The critters in the VMS are not drawn well enough to identify most of them. Plus, it was the custom at the time to draw many mythical animals or "generic" animals that were not intended to be any particular animal. You can't assume what they are just because you want to place them in the context of a North American swamp. Besides, even if it were swamp water, there are swamps all over Europe too, including in some of the hotter regions.
I've now received permission from the copyright owner (source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) to post his photo of the marsh deer in this forum:
I see similarities in the following areas:
1) the upright ears rising from the back of the head. Cows, sheep, goats, horses, donkeys, mules, etc do not have ears that look like that.
2) the black coloring of the lower legs seen in both depictions.
3) a short dark tail which in both cases extends from a protruding rear end.
Note that, in the VMS, this animal is depicted immediately above one of the naked swamp girls, that is, there is reason to suspect it's an animal that liked to live in or near swamps as is precisely the case with the marsh deer.
This might be a good time to have a second look at the armadillo, another animal that liked to live in or near swamps:
Right after I wrote for permission on the marsh deer, I noticed that the very same website had photos of armadillos that did not have ostentatious bands.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It also has photos of armadillos rolled up into a ball, which the VMS armadillo seems to be in the process of doing. Many species of armadillo have become extinct in North America since medieval times and, like the marsh deer, a few of them still survive in South America.
Your counterclaim is that a scaly animal has been found to exist in central Africa and also in China. Since you have provided no evidence at all that such an animal was known in Europe during the Middle Ages, I view your counterclaim as sheer demagoguery, not as science.
In order to convince people on your Made-in-Europe theory, you really should provide a smoking gun, that is, you need to demonstrate that the pictorial content of the VMS reflects awareness of European history or European culture for the period ranging from 1244 CE (the date of destruction of the depicted fortress) to 1438 CE (the end of the radiocarbon range).
Examples of a smoking gun could include a depiction of the Black Death that wiped out half the population of Europe in the 14th century (indeed one might expect to see such a thing in a manuscript that includes a chapter on herbal medicine!), or perhaps a depiction of new European inventions like the gunpowder cannon, or even a depiction of any king or pope of that epoch. The lack of a smoking gun does not prove you wrong, but neither does it prove the Made-in-the-Americas theory to be wrong.
Morten St. George > 25-09-2019, 07:29 PM
(25-09-2019, 02:38 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.“The use of pangolins in Chinese medicine dates back thousands of years. A 16th-century document recommends eating their scales to reduce swelling, invigorate blood circulation and promote lactation. A 1938 article in Nature suggests they were used to treat malaria, deafness, “hysterical crying” in children and women possessed..."
Monica Yokubinas > 25-09-2019, 08:06 PM
(25-09-2019, 07:29 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(25-09-2019, 02:38 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.“The use of pangolins in Chinese medicine dates back thousands of years. A 16th-century document recommends eating their scales to reduce swelling, invigorate blood circulation and promote lactation. A 1938 article in Nature suggests they were used to treat malaria, deafness, “hysterical crying” in children and women possessed..."
Marco Polo lived in China for 17 years. Does he mention pangolins in his chronicles? If so, please tell JP about it as it could strengthen his Made-in-Europe arguments.
In her An Elegant Enigma book about the VMS, d'Imperio twice cited the remarks of an eminent historian: "It is strange that the draftsman should have so completely escaped all medieval or Renaissance influence."
That remark, reiterated by other scholars years ago, should have raised alarm bells.
For my part, I found it hard to believe that the VMS authors could have seen illuminated manuscripts and not have been moved toward raising their manuscript to that higher level of elegance and beauty.
Maybe the answer is that the VMS authors never did see an illuminated manuscript? Maybe the swamp drawings are crude because they were made out in the wilds and not inside the hallways of a monastery? And, later, maybe their contact with European culture was largely restricted to blindly copying stuff they didn't understand?
But nobody is doubting that VMS encryption was a European creation, so that has to be the pathway to resolving the mysteries of the VMS. We need a more complete decoding: "Kaz-chaz-chsz" in and of itself may not be sufficient!
Morten St. George > 25-09-2019, 09:54 PM
(25-09-2019, 08:06 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Pangolins are also in India and probably had a larger range 600 years ago... You didn't need a Marco Polo and China trade to find out about them, as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. had similar medical usage for the scales.