The Voynich Ninja

(10-11-2025, 01:31 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The order of Irish sentences are particularly different from English, it's VSO. Above that is the literal translation WITHOUT embellishments nor any reordering nor punctuation to fit closer to English (although ordering from Tain Bo is significantly different from Modern Irish) To fit something English oriented the sentence words would have to be reordered. In my process I don't do that until the last step. It would likely be closer to:
 Tender Maiden's (this is possessive) shelter (in or a implied) little throng gossamer in a spot in the ground. Basin in little ford, a small space of time. What is needed is given

I appreciate that the gloss is not going to be natural English, but is this really plausible Irish? For starters, none of those sentences are VSO, and two of them don't even have a verb. And even after you render it in what you say is more naturalistic English, I don't understand what "a little throng gossamer" is supposed to be, or how it can be "in a spot in the ground". I would very much like to check your work on the Irish in more detail, but it is not possible to really see your work in this format. But from what I can see, you have a chance to nudge it when selecting words from the dictionary, and again when you render it in English, and even then you're not getting anything that makes any sense. I don't think this is reproducible, unless there is some piece we're all missing.

(10-11-2025, 02:46 AM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-11-2025, 01:31 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The order of Irish sentences are particularly different from English, it's VSO. Above that is the literal translation WITHOUT embellishments nor any reordering nor punctuation to fit closer to English (although ordering from Tain Bo is significantly different from Modern Irish) To fit something English oriented the sentence words would have to be reordered. In my process I don't do that until the last step. It would likely be closer to:
 Tender Maiden's (this is possessive) shelter (in or a implied) little throng gossamer in a spot in the ground. Basin in little ford, a small space of time. What is needed is given

I appreciate that the gloss is not going to be natural English, but is this really plausible Irish? For starters, none of those sentences are VSO, and two of them don't even have a verb. And even after you render it in what you say is more naturalistic English, I don't understand what "a little throng gossamer" is supposed to be, or how it can be "in a spot in the ground". I would very much like to check your work on the Irish in more detail, but it is not possible to really see your work in this format. But from what I can see, you have a chance to nudge it when selecting words from the dictionary, and again when you render it in English, and even then you're not getting anything that makes any sense. I don't think this is reproducible, unless there is some piece we're all missing.

Thanks for this. I believe that it is and that this is pretty easily repeatable. I wouldn't be this vocal otherwise. Irish -modern and medieval are not disparate things. All three sentences are VSO, there's no verb in any of them. This might make a little more sense if you see the Tain Bo in medieval.

(10-11-2025, 03:28 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-11-2025, 02:46 AM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-11-2025, 01:31 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The order of Irish sentences are particularly different from English, it's VSO. Above that is the literal translation WITHOUT embellishments nor any reordering nor punctuation to fit closer to English (although ordering from Tain Bo is significantly different from Modern Irish) To fit something English oriented the sentence words would have to be reordered. In my process I don't do that until the last step. It would likely be closer to:
 Tender Maiden's (this is possessive) shelter (in or a implied) little throng gossamer in a spot in the ground. Basin in little ford, a small space of time. What is needed is given

I appreciate that the gloss is not going to be natural English, but is this really plausible Irish? For starters, none of those sentences are VSO, and two of them don't even have a verb. And even after you render it in what you say is more naturalistic English, I don't understand what "a little throng gossamer" is supposed to be, or how it can be "in a spot in the ground". I would very much like to check your work on the Irish in more detail, but it is not possible to really see your work in this format. But from what I can see, you have a chance to nudge it when selecting words from the dictionary, and again when you render it in English, and even then you're not getting anything that makes any sense. I don't think this is reproducible, unless there is some piece we're all missing.

Thanks for this. I believe that it is and that this is pretty easily repeatable. I wouldn't be this vocal otherwise. Irish -modern and medieval are not disparate things. All three sentences are VSO, there's no verb in any of them. This might make a little more sense if you see the Tain Bo in medieval.

Also the ladies are miniature in some of these. 
And gossamer has 5 meanings - homespun cloth, denotes draping sheer fabric. It's also in my translation of what reads like a maypole dance (reel dance) from 15r.

(10-11-2025, 02:43 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.78r start of tube - accept drink drink (glug glug connotation)
makes sense with image
From left to right tube ladies:

You can keep it very simple:
num - EVA - D - Irish - English
1 okain - ? - abhaile - home
2 y,kal -...
3 otol - ...
and so on.

P.S. This is 77v

(09-11-2025, 10:53 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(09-11-2025, 09:47 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Line 48 from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has two words which appear similar to the labels the transcriptions of which you have provided. From your point of view, are these the same words or not? Could you provide a reading for this line from f76r?

So most of the text is instructional like this. This is a little disorganized, I tried to clean it up


76r

Literal translation is as follows: 

Each hole small levee small tree, add to flower, remake or rearrange move a little layer a dash


- my understanding: 

For each hole levee small tree(s), add flower, rearrange, move a little layer, just a smidge

THis is a combination of two word pronounced exactly what is written Chuile:
gach, a. & s. 1. a. Every, each. (a) ~ duine, rud, every person, thing. ~ lá den bhliain, every day of the year. ~ uair dá bhfeicim é, every time I see him. As ~ aird, from all directions. ~ leathuair, every half hour. ~ maith, every good thing, everything that is good. ~ aon, ~ uile, every.

bréifin, f. (gs. -fne, pl. -fní). 1. Perforation, hole. 2. Anat: Foramen.
leibhé, m. (gs. ~, pl. ~anna). Geog: Levée. WITH SMALL DIMINUTIVE
        little levee

--- possibly related: feadhain
----- or diminutive of:
fiodh1, m. (gs. feá, pl. feánna). 1. Tree. 2. Wood, timber. S.a. COILEACH1 1(b), FIAIRE 2. 3 = IODH.


fuill, v.t. (vn. ~eamh). Lit: Add to, increase.
antó(i)-, pref. Anth(o)-
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.-
athdhéan, v.t. (vn. ~amh). Redo, remake. Ní féidir thú a ~amh, you are incorrigible.
                Although It sounds most like the beginning of this: athéadach, m. (gs. -aigh). Cast-off clothes.
                and possibly Juh sound of below atheaJin (in process of rearranging or rearranged)
                atheagar, m. (gs. -air). 1. Rearrangement; reorganization. 2. Recension.

move a little: Diminutive of below
téigh2, v.t. & i. (pres. téann; fut. rachaidh; p. chuaigh, aut. chuathas, dep. deachaigh, dep. aut. deachthas; vn. dul, pp. dulta). Go. 1. Move, proceed. (a) Dul ó áit go háit, abhaile, go Meiriceá, to go from place to place, home, to America. Dul soir, suas, anonn agus anall, isteach sa teach, to go east, up, to and fro, into the house. Cá ndeachaigh siad? Where did they go? (b) (With noun as complement) Dul an bóthar, to go along the road; to go by road. ~ an bealach seo, go this way. Rachaimid amach an sliabh, we will go out over the mountain. Chuaigh seisean an t-áth agus mise an clochán, he went by the ford and I went by the stepping-stones. © Ag dul leathchéad míle san uair, going fifty miles an hour. 2. (a) Extend in certain direction.

Layer (or possibly another listed word, layer makes sense given the instructions)
bréidín1, m. (gs. ~, pl. ~í). 1. Dim. of BRÉID1. 2. Homespun cloth; tweed. ~ bán, white homespun. 3. Kerchief. 4. (pl.) Gossamer. 5. Layer.


Fhobhoi

(linked spelling wise historically on Teannglan to this word)
fogha2, m. (gs. ~, pl. ~nna). 1. Dart, lunge; rush, attack. ~ a thabhairt faoi dhuine, to make a dart at, attack, s.o. ~ a bhaint as duine, (i) to make a snap at s.o., (ii) to criticize s.o. sharply. Níor bhain sé ~ ná easpa asam, he didn’t hurt me in the least. Shíl sé ~ (magaidh) a bhaint asam, he thought he could have a bit of fun at my expense. 2. Short run, quick effort. ~ oibre, spurt of work. ~ a thabhairt amach faoin tír, to take a quick run out into the country. Tabhair ~ isteach chugainn ar do bhealach, drop in to see us on your way. Ní raibh ann ach ~ fóisí, it was only a spurt. 3. Short interval.
(For a) 3. Short interval. Thug sé ~ beag do na ba ar na cinnfhearainn, he gave the cows a short run (of grazing) along the headlands. Tabhair ~ den rámhainn dom, lend me the spade for a short while. 4. Slight admixture, dash.


78r start of tube - accept drink drink (glug glug connotation)
makes sense with image
at start of

For me thats a bit too much information for a very simple question. Can you just put the raw translation in old Irish under the Line 48 from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. word by word? I think we need more raw translation word by word, without your interpretation. If this is correct it should not only work in your brain.

Could you give the readings for these too?

[attachment=12132]

Regarding the line from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in my previous post, would be perfect to have readings of each word on that line, if these are available.

Quote:Can you just put the raw translation in old Irish under the Line 48 from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. word by word?

I also believe that you should present your results as:

1) the exact words that you got from transliteration
2) your interpretation of these words in Irish language
3) your English translation

For example:

1) You got: dhean gradh ni cgadth
2) You read it as: déan grá, ní cogadh
3) You translate it to: Make love not war

Oops I didn't thread this, this is for oshfdk asking about 82v:

I really only had this note for that page (this was before I started dropping ath where it isn't needed/is musical): 


Page 82v Top right corner we have a depiction of mimicking
and also a word adjacent to mimicking in irish
athléamh, v.t. (pres. -éann, fut. -ifidh, vn. -éamh, pp. -ite).
1. Reread. 2. (With ar) Mimic.




This is what I just translated using my current methods: 

small load fetch element driving off go from


So I just quickly translated this:

1. small load (diminutive dhin)
eire, m. (gs. ~, pl. -rí). Load, burden. ~ droma, back-load. Tá sé ina ~ orm, it is a burden on me. Beidh sé d’~, ar ~, agat (é a dhéanamh), it will take you all your time (to do it). Tá ~ a dhroma d’fhiacha air, he is weighed down with debt. (Var: f)


2. déin2, s. (In phrase) Faoi dhéin, to meet, to fetch.

3. dhouil - element (waer)
a
táin, f. (gs. tána, pl. ~te). 1. Lit: (a) (Act of) driving (off)


a
4. téigh2, v.t. & i. (pres. téann; fut. rachaidh; p. chuaigh, aut. chuathas, dep. deachaigh, dep. aut. deachthas; vn. dul, pp. dulta). Go.
o fada is from

(10-11-2025, 01:29 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:Can you just put the raw translation in old Irish under the Line 48 from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. word by word?

I also believe that you should present your results as:

1) the exact words that you got from transliteration
2) your interpretation of these words in Irish language
3) your English translation

For example:

1) You got: dhean gradh ni cgadth
2) You read it as: déan grá, ní cogadh
3) You translate it to: Make love not war

This is my post about 82v using Rafal's suggestion. Thank you.

process notes for 1, for example. I've been doing this with my ears: 
Number one process: *insert audio of me repeating the word ah AIR din, ah AIR din, ah AIR din, ah AIR din, ---AIR din, AIR din, AIR din and then typing in phonetically into teannglann "eardin" separating the dhin suffix to find root of the word

dhin is diminutive 

1. I got- eire dhin déin dúil táin téigh(historically spelled teidh) ó ó4, form
2. ah AIR din ah DEN doo-EEL oh ah ten oh ted een  (english phonetic) 
3. small load of water drives off from

small load to fetch element driving off go from



1. small load (diminutive dhin)
eire, m. (gs. ~, pl. -rí). Load, burden. ~ droma, back-load. Tá sé ina ~ orm, it is a burden on me. Beidh sé d’~, ar ~, agat (é a dhéanamh), it will take you all your time (to do it). Tá ~ a dhroma d’fhiacha air, he is weighed down with debt. (Var: f)


2. déin2, s. (In phrase) Faoi dhéin, to meet, to fetch.

3. dúil1- element (waer)
ó =from or of
táin, f. (gs. tána, pl. ~te). 1. Lit: (a) (Act of) driving (off)


ó =from 
4. téigh2, v.t. & i. (pres. téann; fut. rachaidh; p. chuaigh, aut. chuathas, dep. deachaigh, dep. aut. deachthas; vn. dul, pp. dulta). Go.
o fada is from

Could you check if I placed all the labels correctly so far?

[attachment=12133]