The Voynich Ninja

(10-11-2025, 05:02 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-11-2025, 04:23 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I understand this objection. I genuinely don't know why I chose one over the other there, but they mean the same. Elopement = "to go from" no? The words are combined to form a new word, like ATHOIGE (phonetic =ah OY eg) on the constellation section. ATH means re, OIGE means youth. AGHOIGE=rejuvenation.   So they're not really different

Irish is so beautiful.

This wasn't an objection, I'm still trying to understand how your approach works, using these examples.

These two labels, are they spelled the same in the manuscript or differently? In other words, would swapping them affect the reading or meaning in any way or not?

Oh woah, haha I just noticed they're different hands. Aside from that, nothing signaled to me visually to make that choice/possibly distinction I don't think. 

Also I don't know if it matters but you have  téigh and that's correct but it is written like téidh (historical version of same word)

(10-11-2025, 05:16 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is not "essentially" the same word! For starters, they have radically different phonetic values, so even if they are syntactically and semantically interchangeable you need to explain how you arrived at one over the other or you are relying on degrees of freedom. But as it so happens, in your chosen dictionary, they are syntactically quite different as one is a noun and the other is a verb, so a process for distinguishing between the two is not trivial. And even if you coerce the word meaning "elopement" into "elope" (which is a degree of freedom I did not notice before) so that the part of speech matches, eloping is a very different sense of going, usually meaning to leave home but also including the sense of running away with a lover or getting married to them, so the semantics here are, charitably, quite stretched.

Oh I don't think you understand, it actually is exactly like Athoige - rejuvenate. ATH OIGE. re-youth. 

Both athadh and a teidh mean the same and sound exactly the same in my phonetics they're just broken up. 
I'm using a historical téigh that is spelled téidh

Also you're thinking of modern elopement not old/middle english usage.

(10-11-2025, 05:19 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Oh woah, haha I just noticed they're different hands. Aside from that, nothing signaled to me visually to make that choice/possibly distinction I don't think. 

I'm sorry, I don't follow. As you see it, are these the same labels or different?

Also, here's another example from f78v, would you say the corresponding words in the text are the same as the labels? Could you provide the reading and translation for the text?

[attachment=12135]

(10-11-2025, 05:41 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-11-2025, 05:19 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Oh woah, haha I just noticed they're different hands. Aside from that, nothing signaled to me visually to make that choice/possibly distinction I don't think. 

I'm sorry, I don't follow. As you see it, are these the same labels or different?

Also, here's another example from f78v, would you say the corresponding words in the text are the same as the labels? Could you provide the reading and translation for the text?

Thank you, this one was particularly interesting. This is explanation or instructional. The difference in these instances of adhean/a dein I think is like when you don't want to repeat yourself, or the second instance is adhain (they sound very similar- I included both) The re prefix is there for both of them but they could just be for instructional inflection. So here's the break down and then my process is below 

1. feadán a dein fofothúil athdean feidin daigh afeadán difeardin duil
2. faydin ahdeinn fa-foil ahdein feidin dog ahfeedin difeardin dooeyl 
3. Undertube (re)make solid (re)make dry filling (with) drink tube a little difference element (water)
3. Undertube (re)make(s) solid, (re)make(s)(or (or kindle) dry filling draught tube, little difference in element(water) 

process below: 

feadán, m. (gs. & npl. -áin, gpl. ~). 1. Tube. (a)~ gloine, luaidhe, glass, lead, tube. ~ carbradóra, coire, toirpéid, choke-, boiler-, torpedo-, tube. ~ gaoithe, air-duct. ~ isteach, lead-in tube. Feadáin rubair, rubber tubing. ~ a chur i rud, to tube sth. (b) Surg: Tube. © Anat:Bot: Duct. ~ ribeach, capillary. (d) Mus: Reed. ~ orgáin, organ reed. (e) ~ glóir, larynx. 2. Tubular thing; peg, pin. ~ eochrach, barrel of key. ~ tobac, roll of tobacco. Ól ~ de, take a peg of it. 3. Watercourse, gully. 4. Whistling sound; bronchial wheeze.
redo
fothúil, a2. Solidly based, solid.
faichill1, f. (gs. ~e). 1. vn. of FAICHILL2. 2. Care, caution; wariness, guardedness. Bheith ar d’fhaichill, to be cautious; to be wary, to beware (ar dhuine, ar rud, of s.o., of sth.). Duine a chur ar a fhaichill (ar), to put s.o. on his guard (against). Bhí sé ar a fhaichill romhainn, he was guarded in our presence. Dá mbeadh ~ aige ar a theanga, if only he would guard his tongue. Níl ~ ar bith ann, he takes no precautions. ~ a thóna féin ar gach fear, let every man guard his own rear, every man for himself. (Var: faichilt f)
faichill2, v.t. & i. Be careful of; (with ar) be wary of, on guard against. Rud a fhaichill, to be careful of sth. ~ do shúil, mind your eye. ~ na huibheacha, be careful of the eggs. Tú féin a fhaichill ar rud, to be wary of sth. Níor fhaichill sé é féin ar na taismí, he didn’t take precautions against accidents. ~! Be careful! Beware!

remake
adhain1, v.t. & i. (pres. adhnann, fut. adhanfaidh, vn. ~t). 1. Kindle. Tine a ~t, to kindle a fire. 2. Inflame. Duine a ~t, to inflame s.o. Ná h~ fearg, troid, don’t stir up anger, a fight. 3. I.C.E: Ignite. 4. ~t ar, to grate on. Tá an roth ag ~t ar a fhearsaid, the wheel is grating on its axle. (Var: ~tigh)
feidín, m. (gs. ~). Dry filling. Clocha ~, small stones for filling spaces in wall or for use as bottom course. Balla ~, (i) wall made of clay and small stones, (ii) wall with a bottom course of small stones.
fiuchadh, m. (gs. -chta). 1. vn. of FIUCH. 2. (a) Boiling, boil. ~ a bhaint as rud, to bring sth. to the boil. Ar ~, boiling. D’ól sé as an bh~ é, he drank it boiling hot. (b)(Of emotions) 
deoch1, f. (gs. dí, pl. ~anna). 1. Drink; draught, potion.
daigh1, f. (gs. ~e, pl. daitheacha). 1. Lit: Flame, fire. 2. Stabbing pain; pang, twinge. ~ bhoilg, stomach ache. ~ chroí, heartburn. Daitheacha fiacaile, toothache. Daitheacha cinn, facial neuralgia. ~ éada, sting of jealousy. Gan ~ gan diachair, without pain or sorrow. Ní haon ~ leis é, it is no trouble to him. Mo dhaigh! Alas! S.a. LOSCADH 2. 3. (pl.) Rheumatics, rheumatism. S.a. LUIBH.

one of these
feadán, m. (gs. & npl. -áin, gpl. ~). 1. Tube. (a)~ gloine, luaidhe, glass, lead, tube. ~ carbradóra, coire, toirpéid, choke-, boiler-, torpedo-, tube. ~ gaoithe, air-duct. ~ isteach, lead-in tube. Feadáin rubair, rubber tubing. ~ a chur i rud, to tube sth. (b) Surg: Tube. © Anat:Bot: Duct. ~ ribeach, capillary. (d) Mus: Reed. ~ orgáin, organ reed. (e) ~ glóir, larynx. 2. Tubular thing; peg, pin
feadhán, m. (gs. & npl. -áin, gpl. ~). 1. (Combined segments of) felloe. 2. Rim (of wheel); cylinder (of drum). (Var:feadhan m)


little difference
difear, m. (gs. -fir). Difference. An ~ idir dhá rud, the difference between two things. Is beag an ~ é, it makes little difference, it matters little. Punt sa ~, a difference of a pound. An ~ leat? Do you mind? ~ a chur ar dhuine, to differ, disagree, with s.o. ~ a réiteach, to settle a difference.
element

(10-11-2025, 07:08 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-11-2025, 05:41 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-11-2025, 05:19 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Oh woah, haha I just noticed they're different hands. Aside from that, nothing signaled to me visually to make that choice/possibly distinction I don't think. 

I'm sorry, I don't follow. As you see it, are these the same labels or different?

Also, here's another example from f78v, would you say the corresponding words in the text are the same as the labels? Could you provide the reading and translation for the text?

Thank you, this one was particularly interesting. This is explanation or instructional. The difference in these instances of adhean/a dein I think is like when you don't want to repeat yourself, or the second instance is adhain (they sound very similar- I included both) The re prefix is there for both of them but they could just be for instructional inflection. So here's the break down and then my process is below 

1. feadán a dein fofothúil athdean feidin daigh afeadán difeardin duil
2. faydin ahdeinn fa-foil ahdein feidin dog ahfeedin difeardin dooeyl 
3. Undertube (re)make solid (re)make dry filling (with) drink tube a little difference element (water)
3. Undertube make(s) solid, (re)make(s) dry filling(or kindle) draught tube, little difference in element(water) 

process below: 

feadán, m. (gs. & npl. -áin, gpl. ~). 1. Tube. (a)~ gloine, luaidhe, glass, lead, tube. ~ carbradóra, coire, toirpéid, choke-, boiler-, torpedo-, tube. ~ gaoithe, air-duct. ~ isteach, lead-in tube. Feadáin rubair, rubber tubing. ~ a chur i rud, to tube sth. (b) Surg: Tube. © Anat:Bot: Duct. ~ ribeach, capillary. (d) Mus: Reed. ~ orgáin, organ reed. (e) ~ glóir, larynx. 2. Tubular thing; peg, pin. ~ eochrach, barrel of key. ~ tobac, roll of tobacco. Ól ~ de, take a peg of it. 3. Watercourse, gully. 4. Whistling sound; bronchial wheeze.
redo
fothúil, a2. Solidly based, solid.
faichill1, f. (gs. ~e). 1. vn. of FAICHILL2. 2. Care, caution; wariness, guardedness. Bheith ar d’fhaichill, to be cautious; to be wary, to beware (ar dhuine, ar rud, of s.o., of sth.). Duine a chur ar a fhaichill (ar), to put s.o. on his guard (against). Bhí sé ar a fhaichill romhainn, he was guarded in our presence. Dá mbeadh ~ aige ar a theanga, if only he would guard his tongue. Níl ~ ar bith ann, he takes no precautions. ~ a thóna féin ar gach fear, let every man guard his own rear, every man for himself. (Var: faichilt f)
faichill2, v.t. & i. Be careful of; (with ar) be wary of, on guard against. Rud a fhaichill, to be careful of sth. ~ do shúil, mind your eye. ~ na huibheacha, be careful of the eggs. Tú féin a fhaichill ar rud, to be wary of sth. Níor fhaichill sé é féin ar na taismí, he didn’t take precautions against accidents. ~! Be careful! Beware!

remake
adhain1, v.t. & i. (pres. adhnann, fut. adhanfaidh, vn. ~t). 1. Kindle. Tine a ~t, to kindle a fire. 2. Inflame. Duine a ~t, to inflame s.o. Ná h~ fearg, troid, don’t stir up anger, a fight. 3. I.C.E: Ignite. 4. ~t ar, to grate on. Tá an roth ag ~t ar a fhearsaid, the wheel is grating on its axle. (Var: ~tigh)
feidín, m. (gs. ~). Dry filling. Clocha ~, small stones for filling spaces in wall or for use as bottom course. Balla ~, (i) wall made of clay and small stones, (ii) wall with a bottom course of small stones.
fiuchadh, m. (gs. -chta). 1. vn. of FIUCH. 2. (a) Boiling, boil. ~ a bhaint as rud, to bring sth. to the boil. Ar ~, boiling. D’ól sé as an bh~ é, he drank it boiling hot. (b)(Of emotions) 
deoch1, f. (gs. dí, pl. ~anna). 1. Drink; draught, potion.
daigh1, f. (gs. ~e, pl. daitheacha). 1. Lit: Flame, fire. 2. Stabbing pain; pang, twinge. ~ bhoilg, stomach ache. ~ chroí, heartburn. Daitheacha fiacaile, toothache. Daitheacha cinn, facial neuralgia. ~ éada, sting of jealousy. Gan ~ gan diachair, without pain or sorrow. Ní haon ~ leis é, it is no trouble to him. Mo dhaigh! Alas! S.a. LOSCADH 2. 3. (pl.) Rheumatics, rheumatism. S.a. LUIBH.

one of these
feadán, m. (gs. & npl. -áin, gpl. ~). 1. Tube. (a)~ gloine, luaidhe, glass, lead, tube. ~ carbradóra, coire, toirpéid, choke-, boiler-, torpedo-, tube. ~ gaoithe, air-duct. ~ isteach, lead-in tube. Feadáin rubair, rubber tubing. ~ a chur i rud, to tube sth. (b) Surg: Tube. © Anat:Bot: Duct. ~ ribeach, capillary. (d) Mus: Reed. ~ orgáin, organ reed. (e) ~ glóir, larynx. 2. Tubular thing; peg, pin
feadhán, m. (gs. & npl. -áin, gpl. ~). 1. (Combined segments of) felloe. 2. Rim (of wheel); cylinder (of drum). (Var:feadhan m)


little difference
difear, m. (gs. -fir). Difference. An ~ idir dhá rud, the difference between two things. Is beag an ~ é, it makes little difference, it matters little. Punt sa ~, a difference of a pound. An ~ leat? Do you mind? ~ a chur ar dhuine, to differ, disagree, with s.o. ~ a réiteach, to settle a difference.
element

[attachment=12138]

Sorry, you probably explained it already, but I need that step by step. 
[attachment=12139]

These are the same words beside the first symbol. But your translation lead to completely different words. So also the ending of a word (dan <-> din) must be influenced by the first letter?

Is it like this?

[attachment=12140]

No, sorry I wrote the wrong word on 1. 

daigh was swapped out for: deoch for draught or drinking. 

and Athdhean and Adhain sound similar. 

Also Fo is "under" or sub, so the first words is under tube, spelled with a fo to start.

I understand it to be remake/redo or kindle. 

Lots of words sound like adhain so honestly the word kindle comes up a fair amount in suggested because it's like a lot of words but it's usually not the case. 


1. fo-feadán a dein fofothúil athdean feidin deoch afeadán difeardin duil
2. faydin ahdeinn fa-foil ahdein feidin dog ahfeedin difeardin dooeyl 
3. Undertube (re)make solid (re)make dry filling (with) drink tube a little difference element (water)
3. Undertube make(s) solid, (re)make(s)(or kindle) dry filling draught tube, little difference in element(water)

So yeah, elopement might not be right. I was thinking running off water. But there's a g and d overlap. So, as I say in my lesson the DH and G combined produce a juh sound 

This is the only combo that fits phonetically. It works for both. 

"second hollow part" 


ath-1, pref. (Lenites b, c, d, f, g, m, p, s; ath + t- > at-). 1. Re-, second.
eagán, m. (gs. & npl. -áin, gpl. ~). 1. Bottom, hollow part, pit. ~ méise, bottom of dish. 2. Crop (of bird). Níl ann ach an scrogall is an t-~, he is only skin and bone. 3 = AIGÉAN.

(10-11-2025, 07:42 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-11-2025, 07:08 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-11-2025, 05:41 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-11-2025, 05:19 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Oh woah, haha I just noticed they're different hands. Aside from that, nothing signaled to me visually to make that choice/possibly distinction I don't think. 

I'm sorry, I don't follow. As you see it, are these the same labels or different?

Also, here's another example from f78v, would you say the corresponding words in the text are the same as the labels? Could you provide the reading and translation for the text?

Thank you, this one was particularly interesting. This is explanation or instructional. The difference in these instances of adhean/a dein I think is like when you don't want to repeat yourself, or the second instance is adhain (they sound very similar- I included both) The re prefix is there for both of them but they could just be for instructional inflection. So here's the break down and then my process is below 

1. feadán a dein fofothúil athdean feidin daigh afeadán difeardin duil
2. faydin ahdeinn fa-foil ahdein feidin dog ahfeedin difeardin dooeyl 
3. Undertube (re)make solid (re)make dry filling (with) drink tube a little difference element (water)
3. Undertube make(s) solid, (re)make(s) dry filling(or kindle) draught tube, little difference in element(water) 

process below: 

feadán, m. (gs. & npl. -áin, gpl. ~). 1. Tube. (a)~ gloine, luaidhe, glass, lead, tube. ~ carbradóra, coire, toirpéid, choke-, boiler-, torpedo-, tube. ~ gaoithe, air-duct. ~ isteach, lead-in tube. Feadáin rubair, rubber tubing. ~ a chur i rud, to tube sth. (b) Surg: Tube. © Anat:Bot: Duct. ~ ribeach, capillary. (d) Mus: Reed. ~ orgáin, organ reed. (e) ~ glóir, larynx. 2. Tubular thing; peg, pin. ~ eochrach, barrel of key. ~ tobac, roll of tobacco. Ól ~ de, take a peg of it. 3. Watercourse, gully. 4. Whistling sound; bronchial wheeze.
redo
fothúil, a2. Solidly based, solid.
faichill1, f. (gs. ~e). 1. vn. of FAICHILL2. 2. Care, caution; wariness, guardedness. Bheith ar d’fhaichill, to be cautious; to be wary, to beware (ar dhuine, ar rud, of s.o., of sth.). Duine a chur ar a fhaichill (ar), to put s.o. on his guard (against). Bhí sé ar a fhaichill romhainn, he was guarded in our presence. Dá mbeadh ~ aige ar a theanga, if only he would guard his tongue. Níl ~ ar bith ann, he takes no precautions. ~ a thóna féin ar gach fear, let every man guard his own rear, every man for himself. (Var: faichilt f)
faichill2, v.t. & i. Be careful of; (with ar) be wary of, on guard against. Rud a fhaichill, to be careful of sth. ~ do shúil, mind your eye. ~ na huibheacha, be careful of the eggs. Tú féin a fhaichill ar rud, to be wary of sth. Níor fhaichill sé é féin ar na taismí, he didn’t take precautions against accidents. ~! Be careful! Beware!

remake
adhain1, v.t. & i. (pres. adhnann, fut. adhanfaidh, vn. ~t). 1. Kindle. Tine a ~t, to kindle a fire. 2. Inflame. Duine a ~t, to inflame s.o. Ná h~ fearg, troid, don’t stir up anger, a fight. 3. I.C.E: Ignite. 4. ~t ar, to grate on. Tá an roth ag ~t ar a fhearsaid, the wheel is grating on its axle. (Var: ~tigh)
feidín, m. (gs. ~). Dry filling. Clocha ~, small stones for filling spaces in wall or for use as bottom course. Balla ~, (i) wall made of clay and small stones, (ii) wall with a bottom course of small stones.
fiuchadh, m. (gs. -chta). 1. vn. of FIUCH. 2. (a) Boiling, boil. ~ a bhaint as rud, to bring sth. to the boil. Ar ~, boiling. D’ól sé as an bh~ é, he drank it boiling hot. (b)(Of emotions) 
deoch1, f. (gs. dí, pl. ~anna). 1. Drink; draught, potion.
daigh1, f. (gs. ~e, pl. daitheacha). 1. Lit: Flame, fire. 2. Stabbing pain; pang, twinge. ~ bhoilg, stomach ache. ~ chroí, heartburn. Daitheacha fiacaile, toothache. Daitheacha cinn, facial neuralgia. ~ éada, sting of jealousy. Gan ~ gan diachair, without pain or sorrow. Ní haon ~ leis é, it is no trouble to him. Mo dhaigh! Alas! S.a. LOSCADH 2. 3. (pl.) Rheumatics, rheumatism. S.a. LUIBH.

one of these
feadán, m. (gs. & npl. -áin, gpl. ~). 1. Tube. (a)~ gloine, luaidhe, glass, lead, tube. ~ carbradóra, coire, toirpéid, choke-, boiler-, torpedo-, tube. ~ gaoithe, air-duct. ~ isteach, lead-in tube. Feadáin rubair, rubber tubing. ~ a chur i rud, to tube sth. (b) Surg: Tube. © Anat:Bot: Duct. ~ ribeach, capillary. (d) Mus: Reed. ~ orgáin, organ reed. (e) ~ glóir, larynx. 2. Tubular thing; peg, pin
feadhán, m. (gs. & npl. -áin, gpl. ~). 1. (Combined segments of) felloe. 2. Rim (of wheel); cylinder (of drum). (Var:feadhan m)


little difference
difear, m. (gs. -fir). Difference. An ~ idir dhá rud, the difference between two things. Is beag an ~ é, it makes little difference, it matters little. Punt sa ~, a difference of a pound. An ~ leat? Do you mind? ~ a chur ar dhuine, to differ, disagree, with s.o. ~ a réiteach, to settle a difference.
element

Sorry, you probably explained it already, but I need that step by step. 


These are the same words beside the first symbol. But your translation lead to completely different words. So also the ending of a word (dan <-> din) must be influenced by the first letter?

I'm not really sure what you mean. That happens, there are plenty homonyms or near homonyms. The way I'm able to look up words that are bizarre or they don't make sense in context is by finding adjacent sounds from the three dialects and spelling them phonetically into teannglann. The dialects are different and you can use different characters to achieve the same sound as the writing. Some of my words may be off but I look up more phonetic equivalents, I'll listen to the dialect guide over. I just did this with atheagan (which looks like atheadhin, but has a different meaning)

I'm sorry to all for being disorganized haha. I am very grateful for all of your feedback and eval.