I like sneaking back to 116v like you all and my reading at present is „palden p[ro]b[i]ren so nim geis mi[l]ch“. palden/balden is German bald/Engl. soon or next, probiren is Engl. to try out. „Let‘s try next: take goats milk ...“ At least it is proper German and it makes sense and it does not make any palaeographhical problems. I don‘t doubt the whole last line is German and the abbreviating style fits well to the rest. I suppose it sounds a bit simple, but I am more and more convinced that the ms. IS something simple and that there is a lot of overinterpretation around.
(09-07-2018, 03:31 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This has its problems of course, including the fact that 8 seems to occur midword in "val8en".
Oh well, I should have kept in mind my own point about the uncertainty of spaces in f116v! Suppose it's not midword, but
end of the word, with
sn being the subsequent word. The
sn then expands to
eren, and we have
vals eren. "Vals" is false (see Lexer), "eren" is more vague because (Lexer again) it may refer to
Ernte,
Ehre, or
ehren. "False praise" or "false innocence" are concepts that are not totally unexpected in the context of a spell. Not sure about the correct declension though.
One may argue that there's no space at all, but there is no larger space between "gas" and "mich".
I forgot to say: The 8 simply can't be an s it must be a d, as Marco said, becauseit it is inword, in this place it would be be a long s as in so and not a round s which is only used in the end of a word, this is even so in later German Kurrentschrift and Sütterlin-Schrift, the last line of the Sangallensis Marco is showing is the best evidence you could show, das with the 8's for d and s in the end 0f the word and sind with a long s,
It's possible the figure-8 is used for both "d" and "s". In some scripts final-s and d are almost indistinguishable, so I suppose it's not impossible that someone might use the same shape for both. It's not the kind of thing that's common, but many things about the VMS are not common.
It's very very common for scribes to use two forms for "d" and they use them interchangeably (the looped and non-looped forms), so the "d" shape in oladaba8 (the fourth letter) might still be a "d" if 8 is used as both "s" and "d".
We discussed it many times, but I don't remember if the next supposition was explored or not.
Thomas Coon wrote:
Quote:As for the meaning of "valden ubren so nim gas mich":
1) valden:
I'm not sure about the last three letters in valden - but if they are -den:
The online Lexers dictionary entry for "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." gives the alternative Middle High German form "valden" - both are present-day "falten" (to fold). If you are looking for some instructions how to apply the spell (wear it on your neck, say three Ave Marias, etc.), then folding something may be an instruction. My paperback copy of Lexers dictionary (33rd edition) confirms that valten / valden are verbs that can mean NHD falten (to fold), zusammenfalten (fold together), or verschränken (to interlace or cross, e.g. arms / fingers / legs or sides of paper)
So, I don't remember whether the word
ubren was considered as adopted or adapted Latin word
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or not. It seems to me that this could be quite natural to see the word
udder (German
Euter) in the sentence which ends with the words "so take goat milk".
Ubre is Spanish variant of this word, but I don't exclude that there must be
ub[e]ren, if it is Latin accusative, it must be
uberem. It is interesting, could be
ub[e]ren be transormed
uberem, or it means German plural form, just like
Eutern.
As for me, I'm not surprised if it is Latin as we see here a few words which pretty well can be Latin. And all we met such mixed medieval texts .
My general questions are:
1) Can an
udder (
Euter, uber) be folded, rolled, twisted or corrugated (
valten /
falten)?
2) Can
ub[e]ren be a noun in accusative plural, meaning nipples of an udder or it is rather a substitution for Latin
uberem?
Well, my new idea was to apply known abbreviation shortcuts, not to imply abbreviations not marked as such. In the last line, there are three potential abbreviation candidates: the "8" (if abbreviation at all), the "s" and the ending character of "ubren" which is of course not a typical "n".
If it's translated as Helmut says, then I'd interpret the plummeting rock as drops of milk falling towards the opening of a bucket or a round object. Although the drops actually fall next to the bucket.
Now I'm imagining a situation where one person spilled goat's milk and another wrote this at his expense. Next time try to catch the goat's milk.
Unless gas can be an abbreviation of ganz, in which case it's next time try to take the milk completely.
Edit: also, if this is addressing someone, that means he used Voynichese script to write the guy's name!
I don't have time to post a picture... but if you look closely at a good scan of You are not allowed to view links.
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I didn't notice this at first. But... if there are lots of dots, one has to wonder if the person drawing on the folio maybe saw a pattern in the dots and dotted it in.
Look under the p in "portas", just below "gaf mich". Four lines of dots, and another under the "t" in "portas" . But they are not inked, so they don't show up unless you look for them.
I think I just found most realistic explanation of "palden" without any abbreviations. Remember that we discussed the interchangeability of "p" and "b" in the beginning of MHD words. So considering "palden", one should look also for "balden" (as Helmut also considers above)!
Here's what the MHD dictionary (You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view.) gives for "balden":
1) "
kühn werden, erstarken, erdreisten"
2) "
schnell werden, eilen", notably "hin bald von mir, Sathanas!"
So it's either "to strenghten" or "to dare", or "to hurry up" (the latter relevant in meaning to "soon" which Helmut outlined above).