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Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 618 online users. » 3 Member(s) | 613 Guest(s) Bing, Google, Casines, Fhds_fhds Latest Threads The Modern Forgery Hypoth... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: asteckley 37 minutes ago » Replies: 271 » Views: 23,596 Scorpios Forum: Astrology & Astronomy Last Post: ReneZ 3 hours ago » Replies: 48 » Views: 42,694 [split] The Strange Thing... Forum: Marginalia Last Post: vosreth 7 hours ago » Replies: 54 » Views: 39,106 f17r multispectral images Forum: Marginalia Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi 10 hours ago » Replies: 90 » Views: 33,979 f35v is Brussels sprouts? Forum: Imagery Last Post: Stefan Wirtz_2 10 hours ago » Replies: 13 » Views: 578 Back to the Future - page... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: Grove Yesterday, 02:03 PM » Replies: 0 » Views: 89 Triple convergence Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: Aga Tentakulus Yesterday, 07:34 AM » Replies: 20 » Views: 9,698 Uncertain spaces as evide... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: kckluge Yesterday, 05:24 AM » Replies: 0 » Views: 85 Elephant in the Room Solu... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) Yesterday, 05:21 AM » Replies: 52 » Views: 2,296 [split] Retracer Thread: ... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi Yesterday, 02:26 AM » Replies: 279 » Views: 32,747

The triangular object on f76v Posted by: Koen G - 15-11-2017, 08:38 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (45) What could it be and why would it be above this nymph? I've likened it to certain things before but I'm unable to fully understand its significance. What do you think?   Gaps in the Historical Record Posted by: -JKP- - 15-11-2017, 04:13 AM - Forum: Provenance & history - Replies (4) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Not a pleasant topic, but significant to anyone trying to fit together historical puzzle pieces, many of which have been lost. Lisbon Palace Library: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Wikipedia has a list of destroyed libraries: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   encryption versus wool Posted by: R. Sale - 10-11-2017, 09:18 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk - No Replies Despite the flurry of recent publications, the same old questions remain. Does the VMs possess any comprehensible, ideological content? Does it make any sense? If so, how has that content been transmitted? And, given that content has been so difficult to discover, how can meaningful content be found and interpreted? For more than a century, the VMs has remained an enigma. This will not change, – because the VMs was created to be an enigma. The VMs purports to represent the ‘reality’ of an unknown time and place and a most curious culture, but this is a fictional reality, something that was never existent. The whole appearance of a foreign cultural reality is a deception. It’s a job well done – something that would have been incontestable in the late medieval era. The manuscript clearly presents as a fairly normal book from an strange and abnormal source, but it is the opposite. It is an enigma.   What is it that has so long delayed the discovery of comprehensible, ideological content in the VMs? Let’s consider the possible use of encryption. Here it appears we will find that the state of sophistication was not advanced very far and that any recoverable methodology appropriate to the dates of the VMs C-14 chronology would be easy to discover. Even if we expand the field to include proposed, natural language translations and all the other linguistic efforts regarding the VMs, there are only a few things of potential significance to be seen. There is only enough statistical data to indicate a fair probability that dismissing the written text as meaningless could well be a mistake.   Now let’s consider the use of wool. Wool comes from the old saying, ‘to pull the wool over someone’s eyes,’ meaning to trick, to deceive or bamboozle etc. It’s an idiomatic expression. The first thing to say about wool pulling is this. So long as we do not see the wool, the wool is working.   If we cannot see the ideological possibility of reconstructing Oresme’s cosmos from VMs parts, then the wool is working. Of course, we first must be familiar with the illustration of Oresme’s cosmos and we also need to find the VMs parts and evaluate their compatibility.   If we cannot see the pairing paradigm established and validated at the start of the VMs Zodiac, and borrowing a relevant law from Deuteronomy, then the wool is working. The pairing paradigm actually has a certain extra quality of strength to it because it requires both parts of the pairing to be present in the VMs. In other words, an internal to internal combination. This contrasts with other paradigms which have one part in the VMs and the corresponding part in some other, outside source, either known or even unknown. IOW, an internal to external matching.   If we cannot see pairing and heraldry in the tub patterns of VMs Pisces and Aries, then the wool is working well. Pay close attention to the heraldic furs.   If we cannot find the optical illusion on VMs White Aries that presents a dualistic interpretation of the direction of orientation for the two blue-striped patterns, then the wool is still working wonderfully. Without radial influences, they become a pair.   If we do not know the history of the origin of the tradition of the red galero in the ecclesiastical heraldry of the Roman Catholic Church and we miss the traditional, objective, positional confirmations in the VMs illustrations, then guess what?   If we do not know the name, definition or appearance of some obscure heraldic fur omitted in many current references, then heraldic canting is simply impossible, (We have no idea what we don’t know.) and the wool is really working big time. The pun is a combination of pattern, language and placement.   If we want to find understandable, ideological content in the VMs, then we need to possess the relevant, traditional information and the necessary historical facts to get beyond the wool. The wool has been intentionally used to create obfuscation, but the underlying reality, even though appearance may be ambiguous, is not contradicted. The stripes are blue. And further confirmation is achieved through an objective determination of the standard, traditional placement of the relevant elements, given hierarchical, heraldic and other appropriate considerations.   The connection of a blue-striped tub pattern and the inner example of Stolfi’s marker is not ambiguous. However, it is the second, paired example of this type of marker that designates an unusual segment of text, one that is unique in all the VMs Zodiac for the number of word repetitions. There are triple and double word repetitions in this segment.   From the patterned marker (Outer ring of VMs White Aries): olkeeody okody okchedy oky eey okeodar okeoky oteody oto otol oteey ar ykooar aiin aekeeey okeo keo keody okeodar chy s aiin oto keoar or ar al otol al shckhey oteeeodar oteody otol aiin shoekey sal al ald cheeokseo q!orky choly [This is my retyping of the transcription from voynich.nu.]   In the text segment, ‘okeodar’ is used twice, ‘oteody’ is used twice; ‘oto’ and ‘ar’ are both used twice, ‘otol’, ‘aiin’ and ‘al’ are each used three times. Seven different words are repeated in this circular band of text. So this gives a couple potential patterns based on the number of repetitions and on the sequence. And there is the particular sequence, ‘al otol al’, which is the same construction as ‘day after day’ or anything similar. Could such a text be instructive or religious?   The internal to external comparison clearly is more difficult when a candidate for comparison has not been discovered. But there are degrees of difficulty for this discovery based on the nature of the paradigm. The pairing paradigm must also apply to any proposed external text as a comparative candidate. The prime comparative characteristic is based on internal content, not on peripheral form. Thus the evidence needed to substantiate the paradigm will be much more definitive and easily spotted – distinctive in a way where non-contenders are easily identified to narrow the possibilities – if there were any.   But first, let’s take the wool from our eyes. This is comprehensible, ideological content in the VMs. This is standard, traditional and historical information, derived from appropriate medieval sources, and it interprets the VMs content as containing paradigm elements that are compatible with certain historical facts and persons dating to an event in 1251 CE and is also related to the origins of a current heraldic tradition. This establishes historical grounding past and present. The presence of the necessary elements is not accidental or fictitious. Of course, it is obscure to us, it is intended to be hidden from those who would have known it best as a part of their own world. It is hidden; it is intentionally obfuscated; it is disguised by an illusion. Just take the wool off and there it is – comprehensible, historically validated content.   Music and orb[it]s Posted by: Diane - 10-11-2017, 01:27 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk - No Replies Julian Bunn long ago explored a possibility that the Vms text might be music notation; Nick Pelling and others early considered the text a product of cipher-wheels.  In a post called 'Weaving the Voynich' I spoke about colour wheels as counterpart for segmented circles and so so.... What follows isn't an argument about the Vms.  The interactive diagram comes from an article treating the interrelation of African rhythms, Pythagorean number theory, modern music theory and analytical studies.  It's here because you might find it as delightful as I do. Check the sound's on and press 'play' You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Full article:  Richard Cohn, 'A Platonic Model of Funky Rhythms*, MTO, a Journal for the Society of Music Theory, Vol. 22, No. 2, (June 2016)  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. At different times Pelling, I and perhaps numerous others have recommended  Jocelyn Godwin's work in any study of medieval music and cosmology.     Stylistics of the "astrological" section Posted by: -JKP- - 09-11-2017, 02:12 AM - Forum: Provenance & history - Replies (22) Quote:MOD NOTE: Split from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. (08-11-2017, 11:43 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... As example: a curator from the Getty Museum likened the formation of centres in the calendar to mosaics produced in late Roman/Byzantine-ruled Syria.  At much the same time, Sam G. noted that mosaics in late Roman/Byzantine north Africa show similar characteristics to another of the calendar centres.  The two regions are linked - historically and culturally - from long before the Byzantine period, and it is common culture rather than official rule which chiefly influences forms in art. ... All zodiac-related astrological concepts and symbolism originate from this general area, regardless of whether it's French astrology, German astrology, Spanish astrology, English astrology, north-African astrology, Syrian astrology, etc. It doesn't matter. where you look today, you will find the imagery largely unchanged for thousands of years... astrological imagery dates back to the Egyptians and the Chaldeans, primarily to the south and eastern Mediterranean, so of course there will be mosaics, frescoes, friezes, and other forms of imagery influencing subsequent astrological and calendar-related symbolism in other parts of the world. People were surprisingly mobile in early history and they brought their culture, their artists, and their manuscripts with them. A huge number of Ethiopian Jews settled en masse in France. A very large number of Scandinavians (Lombards) colonized southern Italy and northern Africa. Many Portuguese settled in Korea. Many Romani migrated from India to Europe. Millions of Europeans settled in North America, in the days when an Atlantic crossing was long and very perilous. I really don't understand your argument. Just because astrological imagery originated in the Mediterranean doesn't mean it stayed there.   Engineering Posted by: Diane - 09-11-2017, 12:31 AM - Forum: Provenance & history - Replies (4) I hope I'm not mistaken in crediting JKP with this - I first read it in a blogpost of his - but the idea of engineering has recently cropped up in connection with discussions of the 'bathy-' section. As some may know I think the assumption that the ladies are to be read allegorically in the calendar but literally in the 'bathy-' section is an assumption adopted without sufficient pause for thought, and I do not subscribe to it. However, that said, the matter of geometer-as-engineers has cropped up again in connection with discussion of the tripartite sphere motif in Latin medieval art.  As I've just indicated by my recent post, Oresme settled on the negative side of the question about whether or not the earth rotates on its axis, saying it was ultimately a matter of belief or faith. And it is in that context that the image of Christ in Judgement over the world starts to have the tripartite sphere rather than the traditional book.  That there was any argument at all is interesting and even the wiki article notes that the earth's rotation about its axis was asserted within the 'Abbasid period by muhandisīn: that is, geometer-engineers. I find this of great interest, tying in with a number of factors, not least the inclusion in the Vms of a schematic diagram of the qanat.  I realise that the identification has not met much positive response, but I have no doubt that's what it is meant for - the 'starfish' motif is used consistently to mean the highest point: of earth or of heaven. But in any case, I thought that I should mention a book in which the Greek and the classical Latin terms are given, and a clear description of the Romans' technical notations.  Note that among the Latin terms are 'calix'... cf. cup... and tubuli fictiles for earthenware pipes. (Some  'ancients' among my readers might recall my deducing that the sort of pipe we see in the 'ladies' folios, pipe marked with regular lines of dots or short dashes -  is intended as reference to terracotta/earthenware pipe, though here again the imagery in this context might not have been meant to be read with utter literalism.   Technical terms in John Gray Landels, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1978). At the risk of being tedious, I'll say here again that people who make pictures are thinking in words - and if one can identify the words informing the expression of an image, it can be very helpful for correct interpretation and correct identification of source culture and period.   Proposed solution by Gerard Chesire Posted by: Koen G - 08-11-2017, 07:59 AM - Forum: News - Replies (46) I was recently contacted by phd student Gerard Cheshire, who wrote a paper proposing an Italian language solution for the VM. Even though somewhat strangely there's no reference to the MS in the title. The paper can be dowloaded here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I haven't had time to look at it yet but will comment later.   Presentation of Siloe facsimile with S.Bax and R.Zandbergen Posted by: MarcoP - 07-11-2017, 07:05 PM - Forum: News - Replies (9) Next Friday, November 10th, in Burgos, Siloe will present its facsimile of the VMS. Stephen Bax and Rene Zandbergen will take part to the event. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   Three-section orbs Posted by: -JKP- - 04-11-2017, 10:31 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (94) A place to collect medieval orbs that are divided into three sections (the basic shape of an inverted T inside an O)—cosmological, religious, philosopher's stone,e tc. I'm adding some links to get it started, without commentary, because I haven't investigated this subject. Note that a few of these are conceptual rather than explicit inverted T-in-O, with labels rather than a line (e.g., leau et la terre):           Glass fragment 14th or 15th c            Grimani Breviary c. 1490–1502                You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 14th c               BL Harley 334 Image Credit: numisantica.com                                                                      See also p. 30 (sheep in orb)       Charlemagne w' orb (BL 15th c)    Jerusalem inside orb, German c. 16th c   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. These don't quite qualify, but may be related to some that do:     Von Bingen - divided into four           Antwerp 1524 water/earth, cloudband, fire.                                                                       Ptolemy effect, sort of T-O-ish   Voynich’s Viennese Agency Posted by: voynichbombe - 03-11-2017, 12:44 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (34) This is a continuation snipped from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I was wondering if a more accurate dating for Voynich’s catalogue #31 would be possible. R. Prinke on the VMS ML archive names a rather rough timeframe of 1903-1915. X. Ceccaldi on the same list says “after 1915”. Anthony (surname avoided) states “after 1911”, etc. Of course this probably more has to do with the “spy” activities of the Voynichs, which stopped sometimes before or during WWI. But what would an agency do for the Voynichs? It sounds like a headquarter but maybe not like a stash of bookes at display. It seems peculiar that the word “agency” is printed in italics on the catalogue cover, yet the address is reproduced slightly wrong: Correct would be “Peter-Jordan-Straße” instead of “Gasse”. It was named like this by the senate in 1904. Also, the house n° 27 happens to be in the 19th district, as the street now spans two districts, but it was built to this length only after 1909. A.S. Levetus must be Amelia Sarah Levetus, a very interesting figure. She was an art historian and one of the first women to lecture on economics at the viennese university, etc. Essentially, what she did in house °27 was to run a language school, “She owned and taught at an English language school where she also organised a conversation club, the John Ruskin Club, which boasted a diverse programme of events and guest lectures on British history, culture and politics and offered trips to the UK”. If you are interested, let’s try and add some pieces to the puzzle. First Previous Next Last