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Quire 10 diagrams - VViews - 17-11-2016
Hi everyone,
it seems that most of the focus on the "astronomy" section has been about the part contained in Q9.
I'd like to discuss the diagrams we find in Quire 10, just before the beginning of the "zodiac".
The folios in question are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , f69v, f70r1 & f70r2. Compared to the previous set, they contain a lot less stars and a lot more other features such as tubes and weird foamy/bubbly-like designs ( see f70r1).
The figure at the center of 70r2 looks really majestic, much more than the "sun" in the previous folios. Maybe that's just my impression, but this figure seems important.
There's a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on Ellie Velinska's site where she compared You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to a wind diagram on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Oxford St. John's College MS 17.
I saw a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on the old list thanks to a link on Stephen Bax's site, in which Adam McLean & ReneZ discussed 69v and referred to it as the "28 mansions of the moon" folio.
There is a post by Robert Teague in the List archives (sorry I can't link to those) where he says he believes the foamy designs on f70r1 are trees, and that this folio represents 'The world".
There is also another post in the list archives about this whole foldout by a poster named SD, but to be honest, I couldn't make any sense of what the poster meant, other than his claim that "The VM will destroy Mankind unless people repent and return to God's (Gardening) Plan"...
I am sure there must have been more discussion of this Quire before. It includes the beginning of the "Zodiac" section so I'd expect it to be somewhat related to astrology, but who knows?
I'm really curious to know what other posters' interpretations of these folios may be, or if you have any links to blogposts or discussions about them that I haven't listed above.
RE: Quire 10 diagrams - VViews - 17-11-2016
I'm adding a zoomed view of the central figure of f70r2, because there are a couple of features there that really puzzle me:
![[Image: capture-d_c3a9cran-5.png]](https://voynichviews.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/capture-d_c3a9cran-5.png)
Just under the figure's chin, there are two semi-circular shapes that touch the edge of the main circle. I wonder what those are?
Also, between the semi-circles and the figure's hair there appear to be some marks, but I can't tell if they are supposed to be hair or something else.
The marks on the right side (around 9pm on the inside of the circle) almost look like they could be a partially erased vord, but maybe that's just an illusion created by the extreme zoom.
RE: Quire 10 diagrams - Koen G - 17-11-2016
I haven't given these folios too much thought yet - I think other people here understand more about wind diagrams and lunar mansions than I do.
But the faces, those are fascinating. I have no idea what those circular shapes could be. I guess first we must know who or what this figure represents.
I'll just tag this onto your thread: has it been noticed that a number of these figures appear intentionally cross-eyed or wobbly-eyed? This is especially clear in the top left figure, where one pupil is behind the bottom eyelid and the other behind the top eyelid. This smells like intentionality.
Does anybody know of a tradition where heavenly bodies were given crossed eyes? Is this common? I have not studied this matter at all yet myself.
In the image above, just use your hand on your monitor to cover first the right eye of the big moon and then the left. You'll see that they look in totally different directions.
RE: Quire 10 diagrams - -JKP- - 17-11-2016
(17-11-2016, 09:19 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm adding a zoomed view of the central figure of f70r2, because there are a couple of features there that really puzzle me:
Just under the figure's chin, there are two semi-circular shapes that touch the edge of the main circle. I wonder what those are?
Also, between the semi-circles and the figure's hair there appear to be some marks, but I can't tell if they are supposed to be hair or something else.
The marks on the right side (around 9pm on the inside of the circle) almost look like they could be a partially erased vord, but maybe that's just an illusion created by the extreme zoom.
Interesting observations. The bumps across the top might be a string of pearls (a fashion accessory at the time), a diadem, or maybe just curls. Those at the bottom are very intriguing. I have no idea how to interpret them, they have a wing-like, finger-like, wave-like, beard-hair-like look to them and I don't think I've seen anything quite like them in non-VMS drawings.
RE: Quire 10 diagrams - VViews - 18-11-2016
Koen Gh,
I hadn't noticed that, but to me it seems that if the author almost systematically drew people with crossed eyes, that would mean that the wobbly eyes can't be considered as an important trait in the Leo identification, since it is simply something the illustrator tends to do as part of his personal drawing style when he tries to draw realistic eyes complete with rims rather than just using simple dots for eyes (note that Virgo's eyes are equally wobbly or crossed, one eye looking straight ahead while the other looks up).
Considering how small the images actually are, it may have been difficult for the illustrator to draw eyes with any more precision: without our zoomed views, all these eyes would pretty much pass for normal.
JKP,
I think the marks on the forehead are possibly just locks of hair, although the string of pearls is a possibility, especially if the figure is female (my first impression is that it is male, but it is hard to tell).
I wonder if the semi-circles below could be cloak accessories, like clasps or brooches?
Maybe something like this, although this example is slightly too late for the Voynich:
![[Image: EL18P_1024x1024.jpg?v=1380744427]](http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0253/3973/products/EL18P_1024x1024.jpg?v=1380744427)
Detail from Gerard David's The Wedding at Cana, c. 1500.
RE: Quire 10 diagrams - -JKP- - 18-11-2016
My first impression was male also, but I hadn't thought about the shapes at the bottom possibly being fashion accessories. Might as well add that to the list.
RE: Quire 10 diagrams - Koen G - 18-11-2016
Vviews: I agree that the examples are dubious, but the large moon that faces front really has wobbly eyes. Unfortunately there is no way for us to tell what is intentional and what isn't...
I'd think the big moon is intentional though, since the pupil has been carefully positioned on the top vs. bottom eyelid.
About the Sun face and the two mysterious circles: if this is a "Sol" type, might they be knots on some tunic-like garment?
See for example the Sol figure on one of my favorite zodiacs here, who has one such knots: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
That one also has explicit locks on the forehead.
RE: Quire 10 diagrams - VViews - 18-11-2016
Looking at the two other folios in this series, here's what we have:
69v: a central circle containing an 8 pointed star at the center, with smaller stars filling the space between the branches of the star, with 28 labelled tubes radiating from it.
The diagram is surrounded by three bands of text.
70r1: a central circle containing a 6 pointed star at the center with a vord between each branch, with 58 small "petals" radiating from it (every other one is either blank, or dotted with two or three dots). This is surrounded by a circular band of text.
Further out, there is a second circle, wiith 9 irregularly shaped protrusions radiating it and a few vords between each.
It is hard to tell if the blue dots which color the outer circle and protrusions is part of the original pen design, or if it was added exclusively in blue paint.
Further out the diagram is surrounded by two bands of text, and an additional compass line is visible around it but only features text (and dots) in the part above the drawing (see a brief discussion of this feature You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ).
70r2: a central figure containing a face (discussed in the above posts) surrounded by a band of text. A second circle is drawn around it, from which sixteen shapes protrude: every other one is a short, wavy, flame-like shape, while the remaining 8 form an initial bulb which stretches outwards in straight lines to meet the edges of a third circle. In between each of these, 8 more shapes, triangular with scalloped edges, also point towards the outer circle, ending in straight lines.
The diagram is surrounded by four bands of text.
Why do I bother with these descriptions? The posited "mansions of the moon" interpretation for 69v is based on the 28 tubes and words around the central star.
Looking at the other two folios, there may be some significance to the number of features depicted: 70v1's 58 petals and 9 divisions, or 70v2's 16 (or 2x8) divisions.
Koen Gh, just saw your reply: I wasn't doubting that the cross-eyed thing is there, but stating that whether it is intentional or not, because you have proven that it is a regular feature in the Voynich artists' style for depicting eyes, then we must discard it as a specific identifier for the Leo iconography.
Regarding the knot, for practical reasons there are not really clothing styles with two knots on either side like that, except in women's styles (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). This is why, if the semi-circles (or partly hidden circles) are part of the central figure's costume, I think they are accessories rather than knots (which is not at alll incompatible with your antiquity theory, as clasps were worn in those days too).
With respect to the illustration you linked to however, I am more interested in the two shapes on either side of this Sun's face: are those little mini-suns? Flowers?
RE: Quire 10 diagrams - Koen G - 18-11-2016
VV: I believe that, even though the manuscript has been fashioned by the same group of people and hence has gotten a somewhat uniform look, it was based on different sources. The feline has been drawn without pupils - the eyes themselves are wobbly. This moon though, has a well-balanced face, but the pupils go different ways.
I have not studied this section (cosmology) much yet, so I'm open to all possibilities on its origin. For all I know it's medieval or Byzantine or...? I just think the crossing pupils are one clue we can keep in mind.
What made me wonder if it couldn't be some kind of knot is that the circle on the right has two lines in it, perhaps suggesting folds. Though it may also be a myriad of other things.
The manuscript page I linked has some fascinating iconography, but I haven't been able to find much literature on it. Your question did remind me of it because there are two "pairs" of circles on the figure:
- the two "stars" on either side
- the knot and the star-sphere-whatever he's cradling in his arm on the right.
RE: Quire 10 diagrams - VViews - 18-11-2016
Koen Gh,
I found another one for you, also from antiquity. Here is a Gallus priest, late 2ndC AD, Rome.
![[Image: Statue_of_Gallus_priest.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Statue_of_Gallus_priest.jpg)
Gallus priests were eunuch mendicants who worshipped Cybele, the Earth Mother.