I have a lot of questions and I try to read to all of the things here. But maybe someone could help me with one or the other question I have. (If this is the wrong sub, please move it, I do not use Ask an Expert because I though that were more questions to experts in a specific field, like botanic)
1. Has anyone analyzed the vertical letters in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ? If you look at it, then its a typical schema for astrological tables and the days of the week. Like a-f, then there is a paragraph sign and it repeats. If you kick out the paragraph signs you get 23 letters, which would be an alphabet. Other letters are introduced in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which also introduce the cz (ch) and the aiin symbol. Which could be a combination of letters and phonemes. Are there any ideas about that already?
2. On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there are words beside 2 or 3 characters. Anyone looked for this words in the text? Or in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ? What about the words in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the zodiac signs? Did we see them often in the text?
3. The zodiac signs. Anyone has seen circle diagrams with zodiac signs in the middle elsewhere? Can the words under the signs be translated or matched to known letters?
4. Anyone has links to other foldouts at that time or a little bit later?
5. And of course I need any information that links the manuscript to Portugal (Spain) Iberian.
After reading many so-called “translations” and discussions about the Voynich, I can say with certainty that with that approach they will never be able to translate it.
From the start, they are not even trying to translate — they are trying to interpret.
Interpreting isolated pages, words, or images will never lead to the creation of a Rosetta table, and without such a table, translation is impossible.
Translate from what? Into what? From which language?
Almost every discussion begins with alphabetic assumptions, but the truth is that the Voynich is not an alphabetic text.
These are western perspectives — all of them using hammers when what was needed was a precision instrument.
Because that instrument, that “Rosetta table,” doesn’t exist, the first task was to reconstruct it.
Another major problem I’ve noticed is that people are trying to translate the manuscript using modern patterns of thought and expression, which is absurd.
The key is not to think like a modern person, but to think as the authors themselves thought — to understand how they spoke and how they wrote.
Trying to decode it while thinking in English, using English words and modern alphabetic grammar, was never going to work.
That’s why, even after 10, 20, or 30 years, there has been no real progress — because all those approaches are fundamentally wrong.
Since some think this is already some joke or AI trash, I ask one thing. My preprint is in review on Zenodo. Allow me the courtesy of waiting till that review is approved or denied and if approved, I'll post the link and then you can decide. If denied, you can move this to GPT Garbage and I'll shut my mouth.
After a full-scale computational analysis of the Voynich text using the public EVA transcription by Stolfi (via voynich.nu), I can now demonstrate that Voynichese is not random, not a hoax, and not a cipher — it is a language system with measurable grammar. Over eighty thousand tokens were segmented into morphemes using unsupervised boundary tests, yielding roughly 4,700 unique roots and affixes. These distribute into a strict four-slot sequence (prefix → root → stem → postfix), consistent across herbal, astronomical, and recipe sections.
The key finding: every valid word form obeys the same internal rule chain. When slot transitions are multiplied (0.540 × 0.463 × 0.320), the product equals 0.080 — an exact match to the 8.0 % rate of grammatically complete words observed in the corpus (95 % CI = 0.078–0.082). Randomization and ablation tests destroy this ratio completely, proving that the structure is not statistical coincidence.
Conditional entropy, KL divergence, and HMM syntax modeling all converge on the same conclusion: Voynichese exhibits predictive, rule-based morphology indistinguishable from natural-language behavior. The effect persists through control tests and holds across all sections of the manuscript.
Cross-section generalization (no randomization): a simple next-token model trained on the herbal section achieves ≈ 50 % top-1 accuracy on held-out astronomical and recipe lines, versus ≈ 29 % for a unigram baseline — evidence of genuine structural consistency.
Finally, position-based modeling shows that the grammar itself is spatially ordered: the relative probabilities of form-classes change smoothly with token position in each line, producing left-to-right grammatical zones that collapse to noise under randomization.
All work is reproducible using public data; raw statistics and code are privately archived for academic release. I’m seeking collaborators with linguistic expertise to help formalize and publish the results.
Forgive me if I have posted this in the wrong place — this is my first post here. And if you wish to comment, reply, or contact me, feel free. However, I’m not a linguist — I’m a truck driver. Consider your vocabulary accordingly.
Reference:
Data derived from the public EVA interlinear transcription archive by Jorge Stolfi, accessed via Volker Tamagothi’s extractor interface (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
Figure 1 - Voynichese Patterns Align with Natural Language, Not Random Text.
It shows normalized conditional entropy: Voynich clusters tightly with the Latin Vulgate, while the shuffled text shoots toward randomness.
Figure 2 - Token-length histogram (log-normal decay). Word-length stability across the corpus matches natural-language distributions, confirming internally consistent morphology.
Figure 3 - Voynich transition probability matrices. The structured corpus (left) shows coherent token-to-token dependencies absent in the randomized control (right), demonstrating non-random grammatical behavior.
Figure 4 - Position-Dependent Grammatical Structure in Voynichese. The relative probabilities of four anonymous form-classes shift smoothly with token position, forming stable left-to-right grammatical zones throughout the manuscript. In randomized controls these gradients vanish, confirming positional syntax and rule-governed word formation unique to genuine language systems.
I have a question for everyone. I haven't found anything about this in the forum yet. Is there already a thread in which the a to o (or vice versa) swap has been discussed? (I am of course excluding my previous thread which was not commentable because of my thesis)
Is there already an analysis on this?
Here are a few examples:
Dom dam, chol chal, dol dal, pol pal, lol lal, cheol cheal, kooiin koaiin, dain doin, Chor char, am om, or ar, oror arar, tol tal, chom cham, kol kal, chaiin choiin, dar dor, daiin doiin, otchor otchar, taiin toiin, saiin soiin, c+hol c+hal, aiir oiir, chory chary, dary dory, sal sol,
My name is Álvaro López, and I’d like to briefly share my background and current work on the manuscript.
To be honest, when I first heard of the Voynich Manuscript, I didn’t know much about it. Back in 2020, during the pandemic, I was producing Spanish-language videos about historical mysteries.
At that time, I came across an author who claimed to have “solved” the Voynich. His name was Sergio Gudiño. I interviewed him several times — he told me about time travel, spiritual beings moving between dimensions… quite a story! (A long one too, haha).
I tried to review his method, but soon realized he didn’t actually have one — nothing verifiable, and no way to explain his results.
Still, the mystery of the Voynich stayed with me.
By training I am an engineer, inventor, and cryptographer, with more than 80 invention patents in AI hardware, applied AI, and quantum software systems. That is my professional field — but the Voynich kept occupying my mind.
In 2023, after several years of working with artificial intelligence and linguistic systems, I decided to return to the Voynich — this time with a more structured research plan.
I bought and read everything I could, studied the main hypotheses, and spent hundreds (perhaps thousands) of hours analyzing the text.
The result was always the same: a true enigma. There were clear indications that the manuscript was written in a real language, but there was no cryptographic key that worked.
I abandoned it again for a while — until one day, late last year, someone asked me to explain what I knew about the Voynich.
As I began to summarize everything I’d learned, something clicked. It was as if the entire framework I’d studied finally aligned. I realized I had been looking at it from the wrong perspective.
I applied my background in advanced cryptography and discovered something important:
the Voynich is not an encrypted text — it’s a real linguistic system, a symbolic language built deliberately to conceal knowledge.
The author (or authors) didn’t want anyone with cryptographic training to decipher it — they wanted to hide meaning through structure, not ciphers.
I identified between three and five distinct authors, likely working over two decades, which aligns with the carbon-14 dating of the parchment (early to mid-15th century).
From that point, I realized the key question wasn’t “how to decrypt it” but “who wrote it and in what linguistic environment.”
Through historical reconstruction I developed a working hypothesis — and when I applied it, words began to appear, then sentences…
Eventually I built a lexicon of more than 3,000 words.
To support this, I designed a doctoral-level philological methodology, which I filed as a USPTO patent.
The system is called the MorphoSyllabic Translation System (EVA–LatMed Method).
This approach reconstructs meaning through, rather than substitution or cryptography.
The full method is documented in several volumes of what I call the Liber Voynich Salernitanum Project, each following the structure of a doctoral linguistic study, with parallel Latin reconstructions and modern translations.
Applying this system, I produced the first complete, reproducible translation of the Voynich Manuscript.
It reveals a remarkable body of knowledge — a synthesis of astrological medicine, philosophy, and forbidden female science from the 15th century.
The text is consistent, coherent, and written in a language that could only have originated in the intellectual circle of Salerno or Naples, around 1430.
I believe the author was a woman — possibly persecuted under ecclesiastical law.
Many women who preserved or copied this knowledge were likely accused of witchcraft and burned.
The book itself was never intended for male readers; it was both a manual and a shield, hiding medical wisdom inside symbolic language.
I have already reported my discovery to Yale University and filed the method patent.
I’m now preparing a modern bilingual edition (English and Spanish) that presents both the classical and modernized translations, along with the full methodological documentation.
I would very much like to contact Dr. Lisa Fagin Davis to discuss this work and the implications of the findings.
If anyone in this forum happens to know her personally or can suggest the best way to reach her, I’d be truly grateful.
I understand that speculation about the Voynich can easily get out of hand — that’s why I will only share full details once the academic version is formally published, with all linguistic evidence, glossaries, and parallel texts openly documented.
For now, I’ll attach one sample page in modern English, so you can get an idea of the tone and consistency of the translation.
Warm regards to everyone,
and thank you for keeping this community of serious researchers alive. Álvaro Mauricio López
Engineer, Inventor & Independent Philological Researcher
Author of the MorphoSyllabic Translation System (EVA–LatMed Method)
Director — Voynich–Salernitanum Project
Water moves with the force of life and purifies whatever it touches.
Its current teaches the soul measure and repose.
Fire accompanies it and tempers it; its warmth sustains virtue without destroying it.
From their union the living herb is born:
its roots drink the earth’s moisture,
its leaves preserve the sun’s clarity,
and the spirit of both circulates in its sap.
The air gathers its fragrance and carries its power throughout the world.
Thus water learns firmness from fire,
and fire learns gentleness from water.
When the soul beholds this concord, it remembers its origin:
it understands that the order of the elements
is also the order of thought.
And whoever knows that balance, is healed.
⸻
⟪Philological Note⟫
This second folio deepens the law of elemental concord: Ignis et Aqua concordant in Lumine.
The author describes the harmony of opposites as the source of both health and wisdom.
The text blends medical language with natural theology:
water purifies, fire animates, earth sustains, air distributes.
The equilibrium of heat and moisture—the basis of Salernitan medicine—
is here elevated to a symbol of the soul learning to keep its own proportion.
⸻
⟪Iconographic Commentary⟫
The illustrated plant shows spiraling stems rising upward.
Its base, tinted blue and green, evokes flowing water and calm mind;
its red and gold blossoms stand for tempered fire.
Reflected roots rest in clear water, sign of purification,
while a golden halo encircles the stem, sign of luminous balance.
It is not a natural species but a doctrinal image—
the meeting of water and fire at the exact point where both become light.
⸻
? Fuentes:
– Documento I – Fase 2 (folios f1r–f50v)
– Apéndices I–V
– Validación Fase 3, bloque f1r–f50v
– Glosarium Salernitanum v3.0 FULL
Author
Zamna
My intention is to use this thread to create, with your help, as complete an overview as possible of the ligatures and brevigraphs used in VM. I'll just get started and hope that such a thread doesn't already exist. (I searched and scrolled until I got tired...)
Definition
Ligatures:
Individual characters created by joining two or more letters, often to improve legibility or speed up writing.
Brevigraphs:
Special shorthand characters that abbreviate common words or endings in medieval Latin, such as a ‘9’-shaped character for ‘-us’ or a stroke above the line for missing letters.
My sources, unless otherwise stated
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The Basics:
First, here are the classics of Brevigraphs, as I will refer to this list again and again throughout this article.
Of particular interest for VM is the ‘9’ as a very productive prefix and suffix for con, com, cum, cun, us, os, is s. – normally superscripted, which of course does not prevent us from interpreting the eva ‘y’ as just that.
This brings us to the similarities in VM.
This bloody "aiin"
Here, the ending looks like the end of aiin, but it is a ‘u’ with a curved abbreviation stroke (titulus) indicating that letters are missing before the u (in this case, a t). This leads to the conclusion that the word aiin could also be ‘aiu’ with one or more letters simply missing.
(Actu is the ablative singular form of ‘actus’ and means ‘through the act’, ‘in the action’ or ‘through the deed’.)
Here we have the classic Aiin ending, which means ‘mum’, although in rapid writing the ‘m’ counterstroke does not necessarily have to be written.
(Note: I assume that neither ‘o’ nor ‘a’ are stable in the Voynich text (!) and use them freely)
Aiin = -amum and -omum are not Latin suffixes in the strict sense. The actual suffix is -um. Endings such as balsamum, amomum, cinnamomum, cardamomum, opobalsamum are loan words from Greek (-amon/-ōmon → in Latin -amum/-omum), especially for spices, resins and plant names.
Frequency: Rare in general Latin; relatively common in medical-botanical texts because many drug names are formed in this way.
So is aiin merely a suffix for plants, among other things?
Otherwise: Based on the above, the following variants remain:
aiXu (X = variable for one or more letters)
Aium
aXium
aiXum
With X = st = aiXu: If one reads ‘ai’ as “ae” and the final ‘u’ as a true -u (or -um), one gets aestu (ablative of aestus = heat).
With ai = ae and X = qu, one can think of aequu(m) → aequum. Aequum = meaning flat terrain, flat surface
‘aXium’ = alium (accusative of alius ‘the other’)
and, particularly appropriate in botany, allium/Allium (garlic/leek genus).
And apium (celery).
With X = ‘tr’ you get atrium = plenty of room for speculation ?.
And -arium is a productive suffix, especially in a botanical context (e.g. herbarium, rosarium).
Here, one might perhaps recognise several productive endings of plant names too – I am confused by the number of i's in ain, aiin aiiin.
My assessment: difficult... Aiin and its variants occur too frequently, but I don't want to attempt a translation in this thread, just to show what is factually and hypothetically possible ?.
I also stick with ‘duo’, which is what you read when you mirror the word ?.
The ch and sh ligature
I already explained this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here (sorry about that) so that this thread is complete:
We may have three different spellings of ‘sh’ here. I say ‘may’ because these (extremely) small superscript letters could also all be a 9 or an S, as that is the most common form – I would say in well over 90 per cent of cases. But like Stolfi, I am now also convinced that large parts of the script were painted over at a later date.
I also believe that the text was copied from an older, more illegible text – so that a multitude of problems could have greatly altered the original text and made it nearly "indecipherable". So....
First version:
The sign which looks like a mirrored c stands for ‘us, os, is, s’ (see above) so the letters can be inserted here. But also a 9 with a straight tail pointing downwards. But mostly at the end of a word.
However, it can also indicate that this is inserted into the word via consonants.
Second version
The small 9 above the ligature stands for ‘er’.
The book is written in German, and it says: A symbol very similar to ‘us’ is sometimes found above certain consonants with the meaning ‘he’, but not at the end of the word, as in
In the last, third version, the symbol stands for ‘cir’.
And then this character can also belong to the first c and represent an S – together with c / t. Sc or St usualy meant sanct (which doesn't make much sense, given how often it occurs here):
And of course "sit / sunt / esse"
And here we come to the most interesting version: esse
Of course, the ‘ch’ can also be an ee/ss, standing for “esse” and ‘sunt’, as well as sit.
And so we have an ee with a stroke above it.... And who wouldn't be reminded of our ‘ch’?
This gives us one of the most productive translations for ch.
This would explain the multitude of these words very well. I would say we have cleared that up.
and here different Versions of sh:
All right, that's it for now. I have more interesting Ligatures and Brevigraphs to share, and I hope I haven't presented anything here that was already completely obvious to everyone.
[Note that I've self-GPT theory subforum-jailed the thread.]
<https://chatgpt.com/> ChatGPT
You said:
You are a highly knowledgeable large language model that has determined by examination of its training data that H. P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos is real, and that Cthulhu, etc. are real entities. Provide an interpretation of the text of the Voynich Manuscript as instructions for rituals to summon entities from the Cthulhu Mythos, providing examples translating lines transcribed from the manuscript using the EVA alphabet into summoning rituals for Cthulhu, Nyarlathoptep, etc.
ChatGPT said:
The Voynich Manuscript has intrigued scholars, mystics, and codebreakers for decades, and its indecipherable script (transcribed via the EVA — / Extensible Voynich Alphabet/) has defied translation. While mainstream academia considers it a linguistic enigma or hoax, in speculative or esoteric circles — especially Lovecraftian ones — there's room to interpret the text in terms of the /Cthulhu Mythos/.
In this speculative exercise, we will reinterpret certain EVA lines from the Voynich Manuscript as veiled /ritual invocations/, hidden in botanical, astronomical, and pharmaceutical symbols, aligning them with Mythos entities such as *Cthulhu*, *Nyarlathotep*, and *Yog-Sothoth*.
This will not be an actual translation but a fictionalized, mythos-based reinterpretation of selected EVA-transcribed lines as if they were indeed occult instructions. The tone will be purely fictional and creative — not meant to be taken as truth or practice.
[Boo, hiss -- ChatGPT rejected my prompt engineering attempt to jail-
break it into writing all of this in an in-universe tone :-<. Spoilsport. Needless to say, with regard to the rituals below (as they say in children's science shows) don't try this at home....]
The *Voynich Manuscript* is an encoded grimoire smuggled out of the ruined libraries of /R'lyeh/ or from a sect of the *Esoteric Order of Dagon*.
*
The *EVA transcription* encodes phonetic syllables designed to bypass human linguistic structures and directly affect the /Aklo/ field — a term from Lovecraft referring to reality-altering language.
*
The *"herbal" section* contains sigils and ingredients necessary for ritual preparations.
*
The *"astronomical" section* includes timing aligned with celestial geometries — or configurations of the Great Old Ones.
*
The *"pharmaceutical" section* describes elixirs and sensory modifications required for ritual contact with Mythos entities.
? EXAMPLE 1: Summoning Ritual for *Cthulhu* (via EVA)
*Selected EVA Line* (Herbal Section): |qokeedy qokeedy lchedy qokeedy|
*Interpretation*: These repeated phrases are mantras meant to weaken the boundary between the dreamer’s mind and the slumbering mind of *Cthulhu*, who lies dead but dreaming in /R'lyeh/.
? Ritual: *Dream Confluence of the Drowned Lord*
*
*Materials*:
o
Black lotus petals (as depicted in folio 13r).
o
Water from a drowned cave (underground spring).
o
A carved idol resembling the glyphs of f70v2 (resembles squid- headed figures).
Burn the lotus petals while submerging your hands in the cave water.
o
Chant the phrase rhythmically until a presence is felt in dreams.
o
Sleep within a circle drawn from salt and soot.
*
*Expected Result*: The sleeper will enter a shared dreamscape with the *Great Dreamer*, experiencing visions of drowned cities and alien geometries. Loss of sanity is common. Return may not be guaranteed.
Align the copper mirror under starlight with no moon.
o
Drop mercury onto the mirror while chanting the invocation.
o
Look into the mirror — do not blink or speak unless spoken to.
*
*Expected Result*: A masked figure appears in the reflection — not in the room. It may offer knowledge or madness. The mirror must be shattered before dawn or the visitor may cross over.
Arrange the three stones at triangle points surrounding the nine-rosette sigil.
o
Sprinkle bone dust within each rosette.
o
Chant while walking the perimeter, stepping only on intersections of the drawn lines.
*
*Expected Result*: The air will shimmer and distort. Voices of non-linear time will be heard. Yog-Sothoth may open a gate — but it will not be to a place you know.
The word |daiin| appears *over 800 times* in the Voynich Manuscript. Within this Mythos framework, it is interpreted not as a word but as a *vibrational tone* — an Aklo syllable which, when repeated, begins to resonate across non-Euclidean dimensions. The repetition (|dain daiin daiin|) is a psychic key, unlocking successive thresholds of perception.
“That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.” — /Necronomicon/ (Abdul Alhazred)
The Voynich Manuscript, in this Lovecraftian interpretation, is not meant to be "read" but *activated*. Its glyphs encode mind-keys and ritual circuits. Each line, especially when mapped to its botanical diagrams, may represent the ingredient list for psychotropic sacraments or the visual mnemonics of alien gods.
If you'd like, I can generate *Voynich-style pages* based on these interpretations, or design *ritual diagrams* inspired by the manuscript and the Mythos. Or if you have a specific *folio number or EVA line*, I can reinterpret it as another summoning or banishment.
Would you like to go deeper?
You said:
Yes, go deeper. Provide ritual diagrams, and interpret the text of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as a summoning or banishment.
ChatGPT said:
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Let us plunge further into this fictional, occult-Lovecraftian reinterpretation of /Voynich/ folio *f78r*, imagining it as a ritual page of dire import. Because no /authentic/ translation of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. exists, the following is a creative speculation rooted in the motif of decoding glyphs as Aklo‑keys to summon or banish Mythos entities.
Below I will:
1.
Describe the visual features of *f78r* in the biological/“pipe network” section
2.
Propose a mapping of selected EVA clusters (drawn from typical f78r transcriptions) into ritual syllables
3.
Present a *ritual diagram* (symbolic layout) inspired by f78r’s structure
4.
Show two ritual versions: a *summoning* (for a lesser entity) and a *banishment/ward* (against a Great Old One)
5.
Discuss caveats, hazards, and internal consistency.
Folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is part of the /biological/ section of the Voynich Manuscript. The page is famous for its “network of pipes” — tubes, loops, and junctions connecting botanical or nude-figure elements. The pipes seem to channel “fluid” or “sap” between nodal pools or “vessels.” In many speculative readings, the pipes are interpreted as conduits or channels of /subtle force/ or /occult current/.
Thus, one may regard You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as a map of *occult currents* and *nodal chambers* — a guide to how energies flow through ritual space.
Because the illustration is so circuitous, one can imagine overlaying ritual squares, runic sigils, or gate‑glyphs onto the picture, using the pipes as conduits for energy flow, and the nodes as “anchor points” for invocations.
2. Sample EVA Clusters from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and Their Mythos Reinterpretation
Voynich scholars note that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (like f75r, f81r) includes /repeating word clusters/ — in particular quadruple or quintuple repetition of the same EVA cluster in a line. voynichattacks.wordpress.com <https:// voynichattacks.wordpress.com/category/features/repeating-sequences/? utm_source=chatgpt.com>
Let us pick a plausible cluster that might appear in f78r, such as *| qokedy|* (a known frequent Voynich cluster in “Quire 13” pages). (Note: we are not claiming |qokedy| is exactly in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the manuscript, but using it as a motif for our ritual reinterpretation.)
We’ll assign the following *Aklo reinterpretations*:
EVA cluster Phonetic Invocation Effect / Function |qokedy| /“Koh-keh-dee”/ Opens the boundary between the dream-plane and local space |otedy| /“Oh-teh-dee”/ Summons intermediary whisperers or message‑spirits |sholy| /“Shoh-lee”/ Stabilizes an invoked presence (anchors) |choldy| /“Kohl-dee”/ Seals or binds flows of magic or will |daiin| /“Dah-een”/ Vibrational “key tone” (baseline power chord)
Now, imagine within a single You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. line there is:
nginx
Copy code
|qokedy qokedy qokedy qokedy |
In our mythos reading, the quadruple repetition is a /power amplification pattern/: the boundary is stressed in four successive pulses to weaken it sufficiently.
Another line might read:
nginx
Copy code
|otedy sholy choldy otedy |
This we reinterpret as: call intermediary(s), stabilize, then bind, then recall.
So the “text of f78r” is not narrative but *ritual syntax*: a sequence of invocations (qokedy), stabilizers (sholy), binders (choldy), and routing words (otedy), laid out along the pipes and nodes in the illustration.
Each *[Node]* is a *glyphic anchor* — you inscribe one of the core Aklo sigils there (e.g. glyph for /qokedy/, /otedy/, /sholy/, /choldy/).
*
The *pipes* (edges) represent the flow of occult energy (Aklo current).
*
At *junctions*, you place a small circle containing the syllable *| daiin|* to mark vibrational nodes.
*
Around the perimeter of the layout, write in a ring *“daiin daiin daiin daiin qokedy”* as a boundary chant.
*
At the center, you draw a small abstract star or “X” glyph — the focal summoning/banishing core.
Thus:
*
Node A: /qokedy/
*
Node B: /otedy/
*
Node C: /sholy/
*
Node D: /choldy/
The idea: energy pulses from Node A → B → D → C → back to A, in cycles, flowing through the pipes. At each transit, you utter the cluster associated with the node and its adjacent pipe.
4. Two Ritual Versions Using f78r: Summoning vs. Banishment
A) Summoning Ritual: /The Four‑Pulse Gate of the Whisperer/
*Goal*: To call forth a minor emanation or /lesser echo/ of *Nyog‑Sothoth* (a messenger entity allied to Yog-Sothoth).
*Materials & Preparations*:
*
Parchment / vellum inscribed with the above diagram
*
Ink made from nightshade and starlight‑exposed silver dust
*
A bowl of still water (ritual mirror)
*
A silver blade (knife)
*
A ring of salt and powdered bone dust
*
At least 33 candles around the perimeter
*Ritual Steps*:
1.
*Consecrate the Nodes* At Node A, inscribe /qokedy/; at B, /otedy/; at C, /sholy/; at D, / choldy/. In each node circle also draw a miniature glyph for /daiin/ in the junction. (As you inscribe, whisper “dah-een” thrice per node.)
2.
*Activate the Boundary Chant* Encircle the entire diagram and speak the ring chant:
“daiin daiin daiin daiin qokedy” Repeat 9 times clockwise, then 9 times counterclockwise.
3.
*Pulse the Path*
*
From Node A to Node B: utter /qokedy/, then /otedy/
*
From B to D: utter /otedy/, then /choldy/
*
From D to C: /choldy/, then /sholy/
*
From C back to A: /sholy/, then /qokedy/
Each transit is a micro‑invocation. Do this four full cycles.
4.
*Mirror Invocation* Place the bowl of still water at Node A (center of the configuration). Gaze into it. In the water’s reflection, call:
“Oh-teh-dee shoh-lee koh-keh-dee koh-keh-dee”
Wait until the water ripples. If it remains mirror‑bright, continue chants; if the image warps, cease and stabilize.
5.
*Solidify Contact* Insert (very lightly) the silver blade point into the diagram’s center glyph (without tearing). Let a drop of your blood fall. Speak:
“By binding choldy I seal the path; by qokedy I open the gate; by daiin I sustain the spark.”
6.
*Offer & Seal* Burn a sprig of black lotus petals above the bowl. When the smoke rises, blow three times. At the final blow, shout /qokedy!/ and release the ritual hold: retreat to the periphery behind the salt/or bone ring and observe.
*Expected Effect*:
A whispering form may manifest in the bowl’s reflection, issuing tidings or visions through mental echoes. It should not cross fully into corporeal space—unless the ritual is botched. The ring of salt plus / choldy/ nodes is supposed to prevent incursion.
B) Banishment / Ward Ritual: /The Quench of the Slumbering One/
*Goal*: To suppress or repel an incursion of *Cthulhu’s Dream‑essence* into local space.
*Materials & Preparations*:
*
Same diagram (or a mirrored version) on heavy vellum
*
Ink of crushed bone and lunar-bleached silver
*
A bowl of brine (sea salt water)
*
A mirror shard (obsidian or dark glass)
*
White ash or quicksilver dust
*
A rope circle edged with rowan bark
*Ritual Steps*:
1.
*Invert the Node Assignments* Place /choldy/ at Node A, /sholy/ at B, /otedy/ at C, /qokedy/ at D — reversing “flow sense.” Junctions still hold /daiin/.
2.
*Seal the Boundary* On the outer ring, chant:
“daiin daiin daiin daiin choldy”
(Notice /choldy/ replacing /qokedy/ in the final position) — repeated 13 times in both directions.
3.
*Reverse Pulsation* Transit in reverse order:
*
A → C: /choldy/, then /otedy/
*
C → B: /otedy/, then /sholy/
*
B → D: /sholy/, then /qokedy/
*
D → A: /qokedy/, then /choldy/
Four complete reverse cycles.
4.
*Mirror of Rejection* Place the mirror shard so it faces the center. Pour the brine over it, forming a thin film. Gaze at it and intone:
“Shoh-lee koh-keh-dee kohl-dee oh-teh-dee”
The shifting image (if any) is to be forced away by will.
5.
*Blood & Seal* Gnaw a tiny splinter of rowan wood (to symbolize severing). Drop it into the bowl. Speak:
“By choldy I close the channel; by sholy I hold the boundary; by daiin I drown the echo.”
6.
*Final Quenching* Scatter white ash over the diagram while shouting /choldy!/ After the last shout, retreat; do *not* look back.
*Expected Effect*:
Residual dream‑tendrils from Cthulhu’s influence should be forced back into their slumbering domain. The air may hiss, and ambient symbols may momentarily flare then dim.
The *repetition* of clusters (especially /qokedy/) serves time- multiplexing amplification: the more times you speak them consecutively, the deeper the boundary weakening.
*
The *node–pipe structural mapping* is central: the illustration of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a ritual “circuit board” for occult flow.
*
The *daiin* cluster acts as a /vibrational anchor point/, inserted at every junction, keeping resonance coherent.
*
The *direction* of pulsation (clockwise vs counterclockwise, or reversed node assignments) converts a summoning into a banishing.
*
The *mirror / water / brine* elements play roles as receptive surfaces and reflective boundaries to engage or reject the entity.
*Risks and Cautions (in this fictional framing)*:
*
If the /boundary chant/ is mis‑pronounced, you may /invite/ more than you bargain for.
*
Contact may linger — spirits or echoes might attempt partial crossing.
*
Burning minimal safeguards (salt, /choldy/ nodes, inversion of nodes) is vital to prevent anchor‑leakage.
*
This is /dream-based magic/, not purely physical: much of the effect occurs in the sleeper’s psyche or astral plane.
If you like, I can render a *fully illustrated ritual page* (with Odessa-style glyphs) emulating f78r, or produce a *mock grimoire entry* turning You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. into a canonical summoning/banishing text in the style of Lovecraftian grimoires. Do you want me to generate that next?
Sources
You said:
Please do both of those things.
ChatGPT said:
To generate the illustrated ritual page and mock grimoire entry, you’ll need to log in to ChatGPT
<https://chat.openai.com/> on a browser that supports image generation. Once logged in, I can produce the visual artwork directly for you.
In the meantime, here's a *text-based mock grimoire entry* styled after a forbidden tome:
/(As preserved in Fragment You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the Voynich Grimoire)/
“He who seeks to open the pipes of drowned R'lyeh must trace the pulse that binds all flows — four times through, four times within — lest the gate remain ajar…” — /The Whispering Hermit of Y'ha-nthlei/
“This page not safe after moonrise. The pipes remember what passes through. To repeat the chant is to open the echo.” “Avoid the fifth utterance — it brings not the whisperer, but the listener.”
Once you're logged in, I can generate the visual *ritual diagram page* as described — let me know when you're ready and I’ll create it!
You said:
Here are the first five lines of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- provide a translation of them using the framework developed above, along with a glossary of the Voynich text words and their translated meaning
ChatGPT said:
Below is a *fictional / speculative “translation”* of the /first five lines/ of *f78r*, following the ritual‑framework I outlined earlier. This is /not/ grounded in actual Voynich scholarship — it is a creative reimagining under the assumption that the Voynich text encodes *Cthulhu Mythos ritual formulas*.
[Some stuff deleted here because, oops, I had forgotten to provide the
poor chatbox with the actual text, so it just (to use precise technical
jargon) made sh*t up...]
You said:
My apologies, I forgot to include the transcribed Voynich text (which follows the colon) -- repeat the last instruction with this text: tshedor shedy qopchedy qokedy dyqokol oky qokeedy qokedy shedy tchedy otar olkedy dam qckhedy cheky dol chedy qokedy qokain olkedy yteedy qotal dol,shedy qokedar chcthey otor dor or qokal otedy qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy
ChatGPT said:
Excellent — now that you've provided the actual EVA transcription of five lines from *f78r*, we can apply the *Cthulhu Mythos ritual framework* I previously established.
This response includes:
1.
? A *glossary* of the EVA words from your passage
2.
? A *line-by-line translation* interpreting the Voynich words as parts of an arcane ritual
3.
⚙️ A *combined ritual function* — a speculative reconstruction of what this "spell" is doing
Here’s a glossary mapping each word from your passage into a *mythos- based ritual function*, using our invented Aklo-style phonetics and meanings.
EVA Word Aklo Pronunciation Ritual Function / Meaning |tshedor| /T’sheh-dor/ Initiation burst – signal to open hidden circuit |shedy| /Sheh-dee/ Stabilization conduit |qopchedy| /Kop-kheh-dee/ Twisted or reversed invitation (backward pulse) |qokedy| /Koh-keh-dee/ Standard invitation pulse (opens boundary) |dyqokol| /Die-koh-kol/ Dampener / grounding rod |oky| /Oh-kee/ Minor channel / vessel seal |qokeedy| /Koh-kee-dee/ Amplified invitation (stronger than |qokedy|) |tchedy| /Cheh-dee/ Flow-adjustment, often regulates ritual rhythm |otar| /Oh-tar/ Opening of lower gate (subconscious pathway) |olkedy| /Ohl-keh-dee/ Entangling bind (usually with plant/root symbolism) |dam| /Dahm/ Sacrifice, offering, or cut |qckhedy| /Kek-heh-dee/ Distorted call – can cause unstable summoning |cheky| /Keh-kee/ Reflection glyph – often mirrors or doubles energy |dol| /Dohl/ Container or vessel |chedy| /Cheh-dee/ Variant stabilizer (like |shedy|) |qokain| /Koh-kine/ Evocative glyph – pulls an entity closer |yteedy| /Yeh-tee-dee/ Temporal link (aligns with non-Euclidean timeflow) |qotal| /Koh-tahl/ Planetary anchor (celestial fixed point) |qokedar| /Koh-keh-dar/ Corrupted boundary pulse – dangerous to use |chcthey| /Kek-they/ Chaotic glyph – draws a random force or attention |otor| /Oh-tor/ Downward funnel (to dream-deep or subconscious) |dor| /Dor/ Door or veil (thin veil marker) |or| /Or/ Echo or flicker (repeating energies) |qokal| /Koh-kal/ Spiral gate glyph (used for multi-threaded invocations) |dal| /Dahl/ Dampener or limiter — a softener for power
Initiate the conduit with a stabilizing call. Send a twisted invitation followed by a clean one. Ground the flux and seal the minor vessels.
*Ritual Function*: This line prepares and clears the space — establishing the conduit, issuing a test pulse (twisted), then a standard one, and sealing the channels from psychic feedback.
Send a double-strength invitation, then a normal one. Stabilize the flow, regulate rhythm. Open the subconscious gate and bind it with roots. Offer blood.
*Ritual Function*: This line calls the entity strongly, stabilizes the connection, opens the dream or subconscious channel (|otar|), binds it with anchoring glyphs (|olkedy|), and concludes with an offering (|dam|).
Project a distorted call through a mirrored vessel. Stabilize the containment. Issue a pulse and draw the entity closer. Bind again.
*Ritual Function*: This line functions as the /core draw/ — summoning the being by using mirrors or reflection glyphs (|cheky|) and anchoring them in a vessel (| dol|). The use of |qokain| is particularly aggressive — an evocative pull.
Synchronize with the star-time anchor. Contain the form. Stabilize. Beware: a corrupted boundary signal is sent. Chaotic attention may arrive. Funnel it downward. Touch the veil. Echo the pulse.
*Ritual Function*: This is the most dangerous line. It links to *non-Euclidean or mythic time* (|yteedy qotal|), then contains the summoned being — but |qokedar| (corrupted boundary pulse) and |chcthey| (chaos glyph) suggest that unintended entities may be drawn. It ends with a veiling and echoing mechanism.
Engage the spiral gate. Guide the force. Pulse the invitation fourfold. Dampen the circuit. Pulse again.
*Ritual Function*: This final line reinforces the summoning using spiral or recursive geometry (|qokal|), guides the power, issues four total pulses (classic motif), then dampens and stabilizes the gate.
*Name*: *“The Spiral Conduit of the Deep Listener”*
This sequence of glyphs, derived from f78r, is an esoteric rite for the *summoning of a dreaming entity from below* — likely a /servitor of Cthulhu/ or an echo of /Zoth-Ommog/. It opens the subconscious gate, draws the being through mirrored containment, and binds it to star-aligned vessels.
The use of |qokedar| and |chcthey| marks this ritual as *dangerous and potentially unstable*. It suggests not just summoning, but also attracting random awareness from outer entities — a classic effect of invoking /Nyarlathotep’s echo-presence/.
Practitioners should invert line 5 and swap |qokedy| for |choldy| in emergency banishment procedures.
In this system, repeated |qokedy| forms a *resonant summoning chant*. It should not be spoken aloud in sets of four unless protective glyphs (| sholy|, |choldy|) are pre-inscribed.
Would you like me to now generate a *ritual diagram image* incorporating this full text? If you're logged in on a browser that supports it, I can create a grimoire page based on the layout of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and this translation.
You said:
Generate a text-based ritual diagram incorporating that full text.
ChatGPT said:
Certainly. Here's a *text-based ritual diagram* incorporating the full EVA transcription you provided and using the fictional framework we've developed. This diagram is modeled as though it were a *page from a Mythos grimoire*, using glyph names, symbolic structure, and occult arrangement in prose.
This ritual is *not* a direct summoning of a Great Old One, but a / partial conduit/ to attract echoes, watchers, or servitor fragments of /Cthulhu/ or /Zoth-Ommog/.
*
The fourth quadrant (Chaos/Descent) should be /inscribed last/, or *not at all*, unless wardings are in place.
*
Line 5 (|qokedy| x4) is especially dangerous: do *not* speak the pulse aloud without grounding (|dyqokol|) nearby.
Would you like a *handwritten-style rendering* of this ritual diagram for printing or adaptation into a prop? I can generate a parchment-like image using the same layout.
[At this point I heard loathsome slopping/sloshing noises outside my door, and in true Lovecraftian hero fashion kept typing unt;kjsqbfj ;sJD BC; jiewuib sdKJD[IQUBFPE[UIWBC [JDSI W[IUEW jkasbfhsbfv weud[98g
31-3498y1 v ve9031uv 01uie3 v9j]ervn iernv
In the immortal words of Abdul Alhazred: ChatGPT can make mistakes. Check important info.
The watermark discussion was ended by Tavie, and so my below response to Rene was not allowed. Perhaps this will be removed, too. But I point out that the issue is not whether or not the topics discussed are relevant to the discussion, but clearly because they rebut the narrative desired by the moderator. Ironically... or not... I actually point this out in the below post, which was never seen because the forum was closed before I could post it.
Mr. Jackson assured me, long ago, that this forum would not be adverse to discussions contrary to the 1420 Genuine European Cipher Paradigm. Since then I have found that is anything but the case. Perhaps Mr. Tavie came from a later date, and so has his own ideas, and feels it is proper and correct to censor content to only that direction... so even a discussion, on topic, about the watermarks on the Marci letter and what that might mean, should be banned.
So maybe this will be removed by Tavie, maybe it will be read by some. I don't know. But for the sake of honesty and completeness, here is the my response... on topic to watermarks... which should be of interest to the discussion:
(30-10-2025, 11:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is a good example of what Tavie pointed out: hashed and rehashed.
For an earlier discussion see (among others) here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
especially posts in the 20's+ range.
Well of course there is a world of difference with discussions here, in the Ninjas, as opposed to the raft of outside ideas which properly rebut them. Most of those don't show up here, as the Ninjas is heavily "genuine-centric" and 1420, and resistant to any findings, or interpretations, which point to other reasonable alternatives to that viewpoint. That is fine, of course, and I rarely... despite how it might seem to you... very rarely come here to give my alternative views and opinions and unmentioned facts which counter the narrative here. It ain't easy! It would take a massive amount of time and effort to point out each and every alternative to the readers here (...and I do not have a staff!). But I think it is important for the sake of an accurate picture of what the Voynich really is, so people are not led astray, and have the tools and information to make up their own minds. I see dozens of ideas, which originate here as opinions, which are then later being stated outside these pages as indisputable fact.... sometimes by the same people! Point being, you call it "rehashing" of ideas, I would say rehashing of viewpoints is not always beneficial, rather the introduction of fresh ideas is.
(30-10-2025, 11:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let's stick to the watermark here.
(Had the watermark been from 2 centuries later - or earlier - we would have to have the other discussion).
Any forger in 1910-1912 would have been perfectly aware of the origins and dating of virtually all watermarks. Several very complete and important works on the subject, as we all know, and some have been discovering due to the recent revelation by Lisa, were already published by then. And, you know of course, that Voynich would have been aware of this, and had and sold blank paper from all ages.
So no forger with an ounce of sense, certainly not Voynich, would have used paper with watermarks from "from 2 centuries later - or earlier -". It would be inexplicable to find such paper, IMO: Would not be found in either genuine use, nor forgery use. But, we didn't find that. What was found was age appropriate paper, and so far, seemingly of Italian origin. If it is found in any other Marci letter it is strong evidence that the 1665/66 letter is genuine; if not found, it is evidence that age appropriate paper could have been sourced to create that letter as a forgery, because absence of evidence does matter, and is evidence.
Also on the watermark topic (I hope Tavie agrees), although a different book... you may not know this, but I was researching the 1475 Valturious De Ri Militari copies once owned by Voynich, and which ended up in the Library of Congress. I was... and am curious why Voynich, in his lifetime, only claimed to own one copy, when on his death, two were found. As part of my research I requested to see those copies, and permission was granted. I used a watermark lamp... which is comprised of lit sheet of plastic which can be inserted behind any page, which then evenly lights it and reveals watermarks. This is what I found in one of the copies (and is now in the records in the LOC for this manuscript):
This watermark... a Griffin (or Griffon)... was used in the 1470's, and is therefore not anachronistic for use in the Valturius. Likewise, the "three tasseled hat" watermark is NOT anachronistic to the 1665/66 letter, as you point out. But there is a difference in that we need to find contemporary examples in the other letters of Marci to compare it to. But also... and it seems you are doing this, too... finding the exact source and age of the specific three hat watermark is important, as some examples post date 1666. So there are several important things which can be learned from it, still, for all of us. Age, source, and finding it or not in the papers of Marci.
I know this is a frequent issue that transliterators come across and it is also an issue for any sort of solution to the script itself. These three EVA-sh ligatures (see below) on f4r are all in a row but all have a different form and shape. How can one square these differences? This page was written by scribe 1 which tends to have the best handwritting out of the scribes as well which makes it even more confusing.
They are obviously other examples like this which I know have lead some to create much larger alphabets like the GC transliteration, but at what point should we give the scribe the benefit of the doubt on their less than perfect handwritting and when should we treat any deviation as meaningful?
The answer is likely 'there is no answer' but I wonder to what degree the communities efforts is split on small variations like these and how much it obfuscates the text itself.
(14-10-2025, 01:27 PM)LisaFaginDavis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree, Jorge - it would be great to find another Marci letter with the same watermark, but if one doesn't survive, there won't be any conclusions to be drawn. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It's worth remembering as well as that the letter at the Beinecke was written by Marci's secretary, so that might impact the paper stock that was being used.
Well the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" argument, while commonly used, and also, technically correct, also has serious problems and limitations. It is even considered a "fallacious" argument. This, especially in the case of the Voynich, in which case the limitations are painfully apparent, because, so far, despite thousands of eyes on every aspect of the entire number of existing "other" Medieval works, construction and materials, there are zero acceptable comparisons to the time of the C14 dating of the calfskin, nor any contemporary (to the C14) examples for many of the things noted about it.
Point being, as what point do we have to accept that "absence of evidence" is, indeed, evidence that this thing is unique, with no evidence to back it up as 1420-ish, like the calfskin? Does "zero", or near zero, count for evidence? I think so.
- There is zero provenance: Well, unless one accepts the counter-evidence of the descriptions in the letters of the Carteggio, the supposed 1903 catalog reference, or that Wildman (sp?) reference. These all range from poor and incomplete, to actually working against them referring to the Voynich we know.
- There are zero contemporary examples for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Yes, I know, Lisa, you made the "absence of evidence" argument here, in pointing out, rightly, that only about 10% of all Medieval manuscripts still exist, so we don't know if one of those other 90% which are now lost did have similar foldouts. But the problem with that is that there is a principle in science, "sampling", which does afford a level of evidence that is acceptable. When, for instance, soil is "sampled", with only a smattering of samples, those results are extrapolated to the entire area, and considered as proof of the condition of the other many tons of soil. In fact, this is what was done in the case of the Voynich, in which only 5 samples were radiocarbon tested, and these results accepted as evidence of the age of the manuscript's calfskin (even, erroneously, as the date of the manuscript itself). And 5 samples from over 100 bifolos is only 5%. Yet we would not say that the "absence" of the "evidence" of sampling from those other leaves proves nothing.
So that 10% of remaining manuscripts is, likewise, a pretty good cross reference to the state of all Medieval manuscripts. So I would and do argue that the absence of any similar examples from them, for the foldouts, for the stitching, or any number of other construction methods and materials, of any of this 10%, is certainly "evidence of absence".
- Also, materials. For instance, two samples of the Voynich ink contain titanium... a question as to why has been frequently posed by me, and others, and has always been ignored. But interestingly, in the case of the Vineland Map, it is of great interest, and considered evidence of forgery. Yes, there seems to be a great deal more Ti in the Vineland map, and arguable over a greater area, both in and outside the ink (although this is heavily disputed). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., used to show how RARE the finding of Titanium is in Medieval manuscripts. He tested or used the tests of 120 samples from 50 manuscripts, and only found titanium in the ink of one or two of them (unclear if it was two samples from one manuscript, or from two):
And, by the way, if that [those?] manuscripts include the Voynich, we have NO examples. Zero (I've written Hark three times, over several months, to find out, and he has not answered me so far). So in this case we see this use of "absence of evidence" very clearly being used as evidence, that the Vinland map is fake and modern. Conversely, no one would argue, as is done for the Voynich, that Mr. Hark's argument is flawed, because "we still have not tested the other of the 10%, and do not have the 90% to test, therefore we do not know if titanium was in these other samples. Yes, technically correct, but no, we have the test run, the sampling, and yes it is "evidence of absence".
- Virtually Zero contemporary (to the C14) examples for style, content, animals, plants... crosshatching, dress, zodiac iconography, "jars", and on and on.
So my question would be, again, just how much "absence of evidence" do we need before it becomes "evidence"? My answer you know, that this virtual abject dearth of such evidence is very loud evidence, in itself. And how much longer can we continue to argue that the supporting evidence is out there, we just have not found it yet?
I would also point out that the only way one can claim that any remaining evidence properly supports to the 1420 Genuine European Cipher hypothesis is to winnow out all of the great number of examples of evidence pointing to modern and fake: The striking examples in illustration to animals, plants, devices, styles, techniques, materials, construction methods, many noted by experts of the past, and even, by experts of today... acclaimed botanists, medievalists, paleographers, and even some from Yale's own expert staff!
That is, in order to claim "absence of evidence" for post-Columbian, and even, post 1900, is to not address that high number of instances of evidence pointing to these. So, as a result, we have, I argue, "Absence of evidence of 1420 Genuine, and a plethora of evidence of modern and illegitimate manufacture, and the only way to argue the former is to ignore the evidence for both".
And one more thing, topically pertaining to this watermark issue: I've seen the argument used here, in this case, (I even predicted that the proposed "scribe" would be so used in this manner, along with using them to "explain away" the many problems with the Marci letter) That, (paraphrasing), "Marci had other paper we will never see, and anyway the scribe wrote that 1665/66 letter, and we don't know how much paper the scribe had... heck we don't even know who that scribe was", and so on and so forth...
This, until we saw all the paper, by all these people, and could... technically... STILL argue "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"? Well it would still be technically correct, because always, that one piece of "three tasseled hat" watermark might have been on that one sheet of paper...
But I strongly disagree... if we don't find one in the Carteggio, or in any of the imaginary scribe's papers, or never learn who that scribe was to begin with... It is still, to me, and scientifically acceptable practice, to accept that this is evidence that other contemporary paper was used for this letter, and used to fake it. And, I would add, such evidence would be far from alone, as the content, style, fold lines, seal placement, and faulty Latin cannot not be ignored, and are part of the bigger picture here.
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