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Voynich text in other cha...
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: Mark Knowles
4 minutes ago
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geoffreycaveney's Judaeo-...
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: geoffreycaveney
58 minutes ago
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Number of syllables distr...
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: Koen G
1 hour ago
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Repetition in Hebrew tali...
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: bi3mw
4 hours ago
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Picatrix
Forum: Codicology and Paleography
Last Post: bi3mw
6 hours ago
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Voynich text generation
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: -JKP-
Today, 05:22 AM
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my suggestion about the a...
Forum: Voynich Talk
Last Post: bi3mw
16-04-2019, 09:41 PM
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Morten St George Theory
Forum: Voynich Talk
Last Post: Morten St. George
16-04-2019, 03:44 PM
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Labelese Analysis
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: Mark Knowles
16-04-2019, 12:30 PM
» Replies: 17
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[split] Nikolai's theory
Forum: Voynich Talk
Last Post: Nikolai
15-04-2019, 07:08 PM
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| Voynich text in other characters |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 9 hours ago - Forum: Analysis of the text
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One suggestion I would make if it hasn't already been made is to try and generate Voynichese like text with a different invented alphabet, i.e. set of symbols, as I think using the Voynich alphabet can be confusing as on the one hand you are trying to produce text is structured like the Voynich text, but is not exactly identical to Voynich text in its structure. This is clearly not an attempt to directly decipher the Voynich, but rather to simulate it.
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| Number of syllables distribution |
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Posted by: Koen G - 14-04-2019, 03:49 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Quick question, has anyone ever attempted to count the number of "syllables" in Voynichese "words" and compare them to those in other languages?
For example, 10% one syllable, 30% two syllable etc.
I know we don't know for certain whether there are vowels and syllables like there would be in Latin. But various people have identified glyphs that are likely to be vowels. So if you build on that assumption, what would the result be?
(I vaguely remember that something like this has been discussed, but since we talk a lot about syllables the search function resulted in an overload).
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| Labelese Analysis |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 14-04-2019, 03:37 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (17)
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As far as I understand limited analysis has been conducted on the subset of Voynichese termed by some as labelese.
It would be nice to rerun many of the statistical or other analyses of the text just for labelese, so as to see where there are similarities and differences between labelese and non-labelese text. In addition I am interested in the study of labelese in its own right as I contest this ought to be Voynichese in its simplest form and so the most amenable to efforts to decipher it.
However I wonder how easy it is to distinguish between labels and non-labels in whichever file the complete text in stored. Presumably single word labels could be viewed as sentences or paragraphs with only one word in them. Then I don't know if it is easy to get hold of the source code for the various tests the seem as possibly being relevant and modifying the code to run just for the labelese subset; reproducing all the code could prove to be quite a hassle, so it would be nice if I can avoid that. I don't doubt this is more difficult to do than my description, but at some stage, when I have the time, I would like execute as many relevant tests as possible on labelese.(It may at times be unclear as to what is sentence text and what constitute single word labels).
I have not worked yet with the Voynich text file (s) or database or however else the text is stored and am pretty ignorant on EVA etc. However I am perfectly happy working with code, databases etc. so I am not daunted by that.
Any opinions on how easy/hard it will be to do this given the way data is stored and existing code made available, would be worth knowing.
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| Resolving whether 86v is a map or not |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 13-04-2019, 02:59 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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It should be noted, as some will know, that I have devoted a significant of time to this subject.
However rather than getting the opinions of layman on the subject I have started the process of getting as much relevant expert opinion of the subject. I have been in touch with experts on medieval maps and I plan to get in touch with as many relevant experts as I can find, as I am keen to get this question as close to being settled as I can.
Now there are other suggestions as to what this page represents. As far as I am aware these are the 4 other suggestions:
1) Some kind of cosmological drawing i.e. of the planets
2) Some kind of drawing relating to the 4 elements
3) Some kind of architectural plans
4) A combination of different possibilities i.e. map and/or 1, 2, 3 above
It seems to me to explore the full analysis of these possibilities one should really consult experts on medieval cosmological drawings, elemental drawings, and architectural plans. They can give us some idea if the page likely represents something in their field of expertise.
This is not a peripheral question, but I think a vital question as if it is indeed a map as I others believe, it has the potential to impart valuable geographic insights into the origin of the Voynich, especially if it is a regional itinerary map as I have argued.
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| Experimental replica of VMS properties with a given corpus |
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Posted by: bi3mw - 11-04-2019, 07:14 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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For some time I have been dealing with a fundamental question. Have you ever tried to use a ( medieval ) corpus to generate text that has similar characteristics to the VMS using cryptographic methods? The horse is saddled here, so to speak, from the other side. I mean no random text, but text that can be decrypted again (meaningful). For example, is it possible to replicate the steep curve of word lengths ? Are immediate,multiple word repetitions possible ?
It is therefore a matter of experimentally replicating the known properties of the VMS with a given corpus ( modeling ). Does that make sense in your opinion or is that too experimental ?
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| Choice of glyphs |
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Posted by: Koen G - 07-04-2019, 02:33 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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We know almost for sure that the Voynichese glyph set was purposefully assembled. By which I mean, it did not organically evolve over centuries. The fact that we have this particular collection of glyphs is likely the result of someone's (or a group's) conscious choice.
We don't know if the glyph set was first constructed for the VM, and if more documents using it have existed. We also don't know if there are earlier or other versions elsewhere. But this matters little, we have what we have.
So I've been thinking for a while... if we can assume that these glyphs were chosen, then what was the rationale behind their inclusion? It's quite a peculiar set.
- a - letter a --> vowel
- o - letter o or zero --> vowel or number
- l - four --> number
- q - four or five or q? --> number or consonant
- d - d or s or eight --> number or consonant
- y - abbreviation or nine --> abbreviation or number
- s - abbreviation
- m - abbreviation
- g - abbreviation
- n - abbreviation
- ch - ligature
- sh - ligature
- r - consonant (or abbreviation?)
- e - c? or minim? what is this?
- i - letter i? or minim?
- t - abbreviation (?)
- k - abbreviation (?)
- z - abbreviation (?)
This list is made off the top of my head from what I remember, it's incomplete and I hope it can be fleshed out further and corrected. Still, it's a strange picture already.
We have:- 5 glyphs that can be numbers
- About 10 glyphs in the ligature/abbreviation category
- Very few glyphs that are exclusively vowel or consonant. EVA-a is an exception. I'm not sure what to do with EVA-i and -e. EVA-r might be a pure consonant?
What does this tell us? It appears that the glyph set is mostly composed of numbers and scribal conventions. Those few that are found in the alphabet often double as a number or abbreviation. So the glyph set simultaneously:
- Avoids unambiguous characters from the alphabet.
- Uses characters familiar to the Latin scribe.
The final point might also be of interest. The selection of known symbols likely meant that the writing system could be learned easily.
But why construct a glyph set that relies so heavily on numbers and abbreviation symbols?
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| [split] Diplomatic ciphers |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 06-04-2019, 08:54 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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I must confess I haven't read all the replies and I, as some others know, believe it to be a cipher. Now in a sense a cipher is a deception by its nature, so I don't know if that is what you meant by a "deception".
You say: "The only third option is that the language-like properties we see in script, statistics and layout are an UNintended side effect of whatever else is going on. But that feels so unlikely."
In think the language like properties we see in the script and statistics are not inconsistent with what I term an "atypical" diplomatic cipher such as were used in Northern Italy in the early 15th century. So if I understand you correctly what you suggest to me seems not so unlikely.
As far as script goes, how familar are you with diplomatic cipher symbols of the time?
As far as statistics go how familiar are you with how diplomatic ciphers work? I use the word "atypical" as this is clearly not a standard diplomatic cipher, but that is where I believe the influences come from. I also think this was a turbulent time in diplomatic cipher development and so techniques had not yet been standardised.
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