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f57v
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No text, but a visual cod...
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The truncation effect
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[split] Bax' label readings and "labelese" |
Posted by: ReneZ - 05-02-2017, 06:46 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Edit KG: in another thread the discussion veered towards Bax's "Taurus" and the possible existence of two separate text systems in the VM in general. I split the thread so this can be discussed separately here.
(05-02-2017, 05:12 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's based on [...], one of Stephen Bax's words [...]
Not particularly aimed at David.... but I'd like to point out that this word doary for Taurus was already suggested many, many years before Stephen Bax's work.
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I need a venture capitalist! |
Posted by: stellar - 05-02-2017, 06:31 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (4)
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Freemasons or Illuminati or anyone all funding is welcome:
Torsten maybe right that the text is copied, but its not meaningless.
I wish to hire a programmer or programmers to use my cipher and decode the entire Voynich Manuscript to Middle English as I feel I'm correct that I have found the secret to the VMS.
I'm not a programmer so I need funding. Does anyone here know of anyone who would wish to create a website with me in the attempt to uncover the meaning of the Voynich Manuscript? I believe that at a certain point of the decoding process if I'm correct that at said 25% of the Voynich makes sense in Middle English this should be a proof to decode its entirety while on the project. At the moment I have about .45% translated words which are mostly stars and 3 VMS paragraphs entirely in Middle English which make sense.
I have an easy spreadsheet which converts my ciphered words to word numbers, but the most complex programming routine would be that the code converts Middle English sentences found to grammatical sense. I also have an extensive list of Middle English words and a Middle English Dictionary.
For instance this is part of f58r, lets say a string of numbers like this which I interpreted just using logic: If I can do this with my brain it would be far easier for a computer to interpret the whole VMS, but labels maybe a challenge I'm not sure. If you want to see the entire first paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. interpreted, search this site for (Lament from the Sea, New Method!) Its on 21.
here is my email: tomeneil@gmail.com
otalchal dal choldy okalys airaldy
60 34 69 77 75
eiaonao rao neorq etaoqs alkaorq
lutee, so Londes Conseil dispence
little, so London’s Counsel expenditures
XXI
shar ytar sheear cheoldy ykeol
20 38 26 72 60
hak qiak hccak nceorq qtceo
sa hye kan, therof. With
debt increased knowingly, nothing to them. With
XXII
cheal cheody chal chaiin ol oly sharam
33 57 30 52 20 37 43
ncao ncerq nao nallm eo eoq hakav
the delices, make hyne deef gye, but
the pleasures, make servants deaf governor, but
XXIII
okair chckaiin ytchaly dal chal ykal
49 86 73 34 30 53
etalk nntallm qinaoq rao nao qtao
talke benynge, lutt bifel. Oo canot
conversation good, little happened. One cannot
XXIV
okalal oly chal dy r chal qopaiim cholaly
57 37 30 35 18 30 81 67
etaoao eoq nao rq r nao wefallv neoaoq
boote gye! make ches em oo graunt Lionel
remedy governor! Make choice brother, one law Lionel
XXVI
dy shedy typchey ar air ytashy
35 46! NOT DONE, TWO MORE PARAGRAPHS!
rq hcrq iqfncq ak alk qiahq
Ches Leon.
Choose Leon.
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[split] Could the manuscript be a copy of older documents? |
Posted by: Koen G - 04-02-2017, 12:22 PM - Forum: Imagery
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Edit: this was originally a reply to David's medieval nymph thread. Since it got into another direction quite fast I split it.
Hi David
I'm dealing with a rather dynamic two-and-a-half year old at the moment so I can't answer as elaborately as I should, but I'll give some initial comments already.
One thing I still don't understand is why people discard the possibility that the manuscript's imagery was copied from an older tradition instead of a 15th century creation. This is not a hypothetical scenario, it happened a lot. I will again refer to the various traditions of astronomical manuscripts, where we see 15th century copies of 9th-10th century manuscripts. These, in turn, were relatively accurate copies of Greco-Roman imagery. So once again, "ancient sources" is a valid possibility that should be considered as much as "medieval creation" and renaissance.
What makes the Voynich different then? Well first of all, the fact that the in-between material has been lost, probably because the tradition was not mainstream in the first place. This means that the best parallels are found in the ancient artefacts which lie at the basis of the now lost tradition.
And secondly, the fact that the usual medieval adaptations have often not been applied. When medieval scribes copied older sources, they would often put contemporary clothes on the figures. Clothing is a huge cultural marker, so adapting it to a "modern" equivalent will make it easier to understand for your audience. This is why it's not unusual to see Hercules as an armored knight sometimes, or rulers as medieval kings. This has happened in the VM, but only in a minority of the figures.
Unfortunately, this solution is more complex than assuming a 15th century original creation. If the manuscript's imagery goes back to Greco-Roman originals (most likely first centuries CE, in my opinion), then which alterations were made in between? How many in-between copies have there been, and by which cultures? Were all sections altered equally? Did all sections originate in the same setting? When were the sections first gathered? Which alterations were still made in the 15th century copy that is left now? When was the text made the way it is now and why?
Anyway, if you can explain to me why even intelligent people like you discard the possibility that the VM might be a fruit of a tree with rather deep roots, I might learn something
Other points:
- I agree that the nymphs are vessels, not individuals. It is almost as if the manuscript uses the nude human form as a default carrier of concepts, without that human body itself having much significance. But isn't the usual medieval approach that such concepts are still tied to an individual saint or other figure? Also, they are usually clothed. We must look for situations where the nude human form is a "blank" carrier of meaning, like mannequins. The pose, position and any attributes are much more important than the actual person. I'd say that the word "person" doesn't even apply to Voynich nymphs.
- A while ago, when I asked for parallels in medieval art for the nymphs' proportions, I was surprised to get many suggestions from Romance regions, often some centuries older than the VM. This agrees with some of your observations. This might shed some light on the earlier medieval stages of the transmission of the material.
- The scarcity of christian thought and symbolism in the manuscript and the preference for nude figures is not something I find hard to explain . But it is indeed necessary to address this in any kind of analysis of the figures.
- The way the faces are drawn is something I've seen in other manuscripts as well. This should still be studied, it might again teach us something about transmission. But I'm afraid this way of drawing faces was relatively common - I can't say without several days of looking at faces in manuscripts first
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Medieval nymph tendencies |
Posted by: davidjackson - 04-02-2017, 09:51 AM - Forum: Imagery
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One of the irritations of this manuscript is that we can't pin down a specific era or artistic tendency. In some ways it seems to be medieval; in others, Renaissance. Frankly, I would suggest that this is because it was created on the edge of two worlds, it is a book created in a Renaissance mindset but with medieval influences.
I've been looking at marginal medieval sources that could have inspired the artistic abilities of the scribe. I've mentioned before the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from the time of Alfonso X, which shares certain similarities with the Voynich nymphs.
Quote:Note the simple strong penmark for the face which does not show the closest cheek (admittedly many of the nymphs have no chin, but bear in the mind the small size of the image - larger ones often do), the sharp nose with eye and strong eyebrows. The same method is used to draw the face of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the VM. Note also the simple hands without thumbs and long joined fingers. The inclined head which nonetheless displays the full face to the viewer in a somewhat distorted manner (there is no attempt at perspective here).
Here's a miniature of Theresa of Portugal (1080-1130) in the same tradition:
(Taken from the Gothic codex of the monastery of Toxosoutos)
But this tendency of round faces with staring eyes carried over in Spanish religious icongraphy of the era. Here's a couple of photos of 14th century wooden carvings that I took in a Church museum in Cuenca recently (excuse bad photography, I wasn't supposed to be taking photos and the room was in darkness)
P1010458-001.JPG (Size: 70.53 KB / Downloads: 206)
P1010460.JPG (Size: 74.04 KB / Downloads: 198)
These images aren't here to be looked at. They are blank, staring, almost formless human beings. Because their intention is to remind us of our duty to God. Look how the second image has a massive hand which comes out at you, along with the missing hand. Originally the carving's focal point would have been what was held there, not the body itself which is simply a vehicle for the objects of devotion.
We see more Iberian influences in the book - the much quoted Alfonso X zodiac influences, for example. I am not suggesting an Iberian provenance for the book here, but rather calling attention to the artistic tradition. The scribe may have studied in Spain, which at the time of the early 15th century was a major calling port for itinerant scribes; he may have been otherwise exposed to the influences.
It's part of the Romanic medieval tendency. The human body is drawn to vague outlines, because the important thing is the symbology that surrounds the body - the religious iconography. Note the strong blue skies that call our attention to God, along with the devotion in the objects being held aloft, as well as the thrones temporal upon which the figures sit or stand. The Romanic medieval artistic influence is across Europe, but artistic interpretation varies from region to region. The Iberian tradition, especially in the northern states (along the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage routes) were much simpler than their French or Catalan cousins, who seem to have liked to add a lot of fruit salad to their pictures (ornate backgrounds and the like).
We see this medieval lack of interest in the Voynich human figures that corresponds to medieval tradition, rather than the anthropocentric interests of the Renaissance. There is no attempt at realism other than the generic outlines of a body - the figures are much more in the tradition of the medieval peasant grotesque than any attempt to depict actual humans.
There is no attempt at perspective in most if not all human figures - they are either shown face on or on one side. When shown inside a setting such as a river or a building, the perspective is flat on the page. The artist clearly has no idea of how to produce any attempt at a 3d depiction. It has been said that the images look innocent, as if drawn by a child - I suggest that they are simply a product of the artistic influences surrounding the scribe.
When we see a nymph holding an object aloft, or interacting, we are clearly in this medieval tradition - our attention is being called to the action displayed or symbology, rather than to the person.
Is the symbology Christian? It doesn't appear to be, which is why we can't pinpoint the artistic tendency. We're seeing the medieval influence but it's a vehicle for some other symbology that doesn't geld with what we know it should be. Which is why it's so perplexing.
The ideas in the book seem to be Renaissance. But the mindset is still medieval. It's as if the scribe were classically trained, but exploring new, exciting and perhaps taboo ideas.
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Colors |
Posted by: VViews - 01-02-2017, 07:46 PM - Forum: Physical material
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Hi everyone,
sadly I have so far been unable to retrieve any part of the thread that I had started on this subject, so here we are.
I can't remember everything that was posted in the previous thread, but I do recall the reference to ReneZ's list of extraneous writing in the Voynich, which can be found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Based on that list, the potential color annotations visible in the Voynich are:
f1v: A single 'g' under the paint of the second leftmost green leaf
f2r: Voynich text (ios an on ?) under green paint of bottom right leaf (middle petal)
f4r: A capital F in the rightmost flower
The word 'rot' written vertically in the stem of the plant
f9v: A single 'g' to the right of the top right flower
Several characters in the top left flower under the blue paint: 'por' in the top petal, 'p' in the lower left petal and 'r' in the lower right petal
f20r: A 'p' (or possibly an 'r') at the top of the root system
28v: Some apparent symbols in the middle of the flower
32r: A 'p' and what looks like a 'v' or an 'r' in the bottom right flower. There could be another character after the 'p'.
39v: A capital B in the white space between the two green part of the bottom right leaf.
I also recall mentioning the work of Patricia Stirnemann, and have found additional links which may be of interest to those who want to look into color annotations.
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I need to go back and read that article again but I do remember that it mentioned that color annotations appear irregularly within a given MS, and that color indications often show the sequence in which alternating colors were to be painted. Both of these observations seemed broadly consistent with what can be seen in the Voynich.
Additionally, I found this article by Andreas Petzold which also deals with color annotations:
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I apologize for not remembering the other contributions to the thread, please repost if you do!
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State of the Voynich January 2017: RESULTS |
Posted by: Koen G - 29-01-2017, 08:37 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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The first results thread was lost in the database crash and I am unable to recover it. So here I will list again the result of our first "state of the Voynich" survey, in which we tried to make a snapshot of the beliefs that live in our community. These results reflect the state as it was in early January 2017. Sixteen members participated.
Yes/no questions
The percentages reflect the amount of respondents who were more inclined to answer "yes" than "no" to the question:
0% Is the manuscript any kind of hoax?
15% Is alchemy an important part of the manuscript?
20% Have the images been made ambiguous or otherwise strange to conceal their true meaning?
23% Is the majority of the plants exotic from a European perspective?
23% Is the manuscript authored by a known historical figure?
67% Has the text been purposefully enciphered to conceal its meaning?
67% Is medicine an important part of the manuscript?
67% Is the manuscript the creative product of one mind, i.e. an author?
87% Is astronomy and/or astrology an important part of the manuscript?
93% Are the plants meant to refer to real plants?
93% Will there be any breakthrough in Voynich studies in 2017?
100% Does the text contain any meaning?
100% Do the images match the text?
100% Will we ever be able to read the manuscript?
Open questions:
- What is quire 13 about? The main group of answers can be classified as "medicine, anatomy, bathing", with seven mentions. Other mentions included astronomy, meteorology, natural philosophy and geography.
- What is quire 20 about? This question was very hard to answer and many users opted to skip it. Answers included: excerpts from known texts, geography, history, philosophy , various advices and thoughts, proverbs, recipes.
- Which language?
- Latin (6)
- Non-European language (6)
- European vernacular (4)
- Greek (3)
Final notes
I had included some other observations but I can't remember all of them. A funny stat was that Anton and davidjackson agreed most often with the majority answer, while Koen Gh. and Sam G's answers differed most often from the majority.
It is also interesting to note that the yes/no questions are fairly polarizing: with a large gap between 23% and 67%, the 50% is always out of reach.
Finally, I will note again that I am encouraged to see the optimism and belief in our possibilities that shines through these results. I am looking forward to see what our answers will be in January 2018!
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