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| removing second "rhyming" vords from ms text to find meaning? |
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Posted by: geoffreycaveney - 09-10-2020, 03:05 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (7)
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As I was working on some difficult issues in my own efforts to interpret a passage of the Voynich ms text according to my own hypothesis, an idea has occurred to me:
The seemingly nonsensical repetition of very similar looking vords is a well-known feature of the ms text. Well, what if we treated the second and following vords of any apparent "rhyming" vord sequence as nonsensical, and only assigned meaning to the first vord in any such sequence?
By "rhyming" I mean that in a sequence of consecutive vords, each vord ends with the same two glyphs. For example a couple of such sequences that I came across include [dal shal] and [char sar].
I wonder what the statistical analysis of the Voynich ms text would look like, if we simply removed the second and following vords of all such sequences?
Rhyming a meaningful word with a following nonsense word/syllable is a rather common feature of nursery rhymes and similar material. In English for example, such phrases abound: In the phrase "holy moly", the first word has meaning, and the second word is a nonsensical rhyming word.
It is possible that further refinements of this idea may be necessary: For example, the first line of f75r [kchedy kary] [okeey qokar shy kchedy qotar shedy] has multiple "rhyming" vords and phrases, but not any two of them consecutively. But for an initial investigation, the simple method of removing rhyming vords in consecutive sequences should be a good start, and the rule is clear and explicit for the purpose of statistical analysis.
Geoffrey
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| Battle of Agincourt Zodiac mirrors f67r2 October 25, 1415 |
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Posted by: Voynichgibberish - 09-10-2020, 05:05 AM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
- Replies (3)
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Towards the pursuit of finding meaning with the Voynich Manuscript as we are all here for. Lately I have gone over the possibility regarding how the Voynich was copied from an original Latin work, perhaps from a traveling doctor. The Doctor sought to conceal the VMS with meaningless text, however he held on to a separate list like a dictionary.
I brain stormed for a few days thinking about provenance, Author type, geography and where in the VMS I could possibly find a possible clue. Folio 67r2 does look like a Zodiac, so I thought would it be about an a big event or for a persons horoscope. Since f67r2 was surrounded by waning 3/4 moons I figured it was for a big event. The planets match up very well with the Zodiac presentation I provided. Also, if one studies the Voynich you will know that in the horoscope series, it starts with Pisces with f70v1 and ends with Sagittarius as f73v! For reasons I don't understand Sagittarius leans in the 1st house of the Zodiac and I think You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it might have a connection to f67r2. Anyway I determined that by the waning 3/4 moons and by the planets alignments to the inner circle words which might be planets for f67r2 that this represented The Battle of Agincourt on October 25, 1415 and I speculate a Doctor drew this up at 8 am three hours before the battle sprung into action.
To further my investigation I will need access if anyone has 15th century Zodiac type horoscopes in Latin, I need to compile a Zipf list of anywhere from 1000 to 10,000 words to try and compare it to f67r2 to try and see I can fetter out any translation from what I call VMS gibberish.
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Code: Year New Moon First Quarter Full Moon Last Quarter
1415 Jan 3 05:44
Jan 11 06:37 Jan 18 07:57 Jan 25 06:36 Feb 2 03:16
Feb 9 20:40 Feb 16 15:24 Feb 23 21:13 Mar 3 23:39
Mar 11 07:46 Mar 17 23:11 Mar 25 12:36 Apr 2 17:05
Apr 9 16:34 Apr 16 08:03 Apr 24 04:25 May 2 06:38
May 9 00:03 May 15 18:35 May 23 20:10 May 31 16:28
Jun 7 07:12 T Jun 14 07:13 Jun 22 11:07 p Jun 29 23:27
Jul 6 14:52 Jul 13 22:17 Jul 22 00:39 Jul 29 04:54
Aug 4 23:53 Aug 12 15:41 Aug 20 12:38 Aug 27 10:13
Sep 3 11:05 Sep 11 10:40 Sep 18 23:28 Sep 25 16:40
Oct 3 01:11 Oct 11 05:49 Oct 18 09:52 Oct 25 01:24
Nov 1 18:24 Nov 9 23:33 Nov 16 20:28 Nov 23 13:13
Dec 1 13:53 A Dec 9 14:43 Dec 16 07:25 n Dec 23 04:30
Dec 31 09:43
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| folk song lyric texts & entropy statistics |
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Posted by: geoffreycaveney - 05-10-2020, 04:00 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Over in the Slavic VCI and West Slavic thread I have been posting some Sorbian text, "encryption" of it into Voynich EVA transcription, and "decryption" back into my Slavic VCI interpretation of the script. Interested readers can check out my latest posts in that thread for more information.
As part of my investigation into this theory, I have researched some Sorbian folk song lyrics, since it occurs to me that folk songs may preserve the style of language that may be represented in the Voynich manuscript more so than other types of literary prose or poetry texts. Prose and even poetry have changed drastically in style between the late medieval period and recent centuries; folk song lyrics have probably changed much less over the centuries. Folk song lyrics also tend to be more repetitive, which fits the observed patterns and structures of the Voynich ms text.
I strongly suspect that most folk song lyrics have rather lower entropy and conditional entropy statistics than most literary prose and poetry texts. This lower conditional entropy is in line with the statistical analysis of the Voynich ms text. (Of course, additional reduction/compression of the entropy statistics by means of a verbose cipher analysis of the Voynich script and text, possibly with a null character as well, as recently analyzed by Koen and Marco, will be necessary to align Voynich ms statistics with any actual natural language text statistics.)
As one example, "Palenc palenc" is a Sorbian folk song. Palenc is a Sorbian hard liquor or spirit. You may watch and listen to a video of Sorbs singing this folk song You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. You may read the text of the lyrics of this folk song You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Here is the first verse of "Palenc palenc":
"Palenc, palenc, tón dyrbi pity być!
Hdyž ja nimam palenca,
to mi boli wutroba.
Palenc, palenc, tón dyrbi pity być!"
Employing my Slavic VCI interpretation of the Voynich script, I can render the lyrics of this verse into the standard Voynich EVA transcription as follows:
[par qokedy tar qokedy kaiin qoky okchy s otchy tchy kchy otchy dy]
[ody okchody chy qokchy qoty qoty tar qokedy]
[kaiin qotchy otaiin or chy or or ky saiin oty]
[tar qokedy tar qokedy kaiin qoky okchy s otchy tchy kchy otchy dy]
I can then decipher this text back into my Slavic VCI reading of the script as follows:
<Pal nec# pal nec# to n# di# r bi# pi# ti# bi# c#>
<h# diž# j# ni# m# m# pal nec#>
<to mi# bo w i# w u t# ro b#>
<pal nec# pal nec# to n# di# r bi# pi# ti# bi# c#>
I observe that it would not be difficult for a Sorbian speaker to recognize the folk song lyrics in the latter Slavic VCI reading, despite its somewhat different form.
I also observe that the Voynich EVA version of these lyrics above seems quite in the repetitive style and spirit of the Voynich ms text as we know it.
Geoffrey
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| Most Common Use of Nulls in 15th Century Cipher Text |
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Posted by: MichelleL11 - 03-10-2020, 07:53 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (18)
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Here are the assumptions -- that are admittedly far, far from having proof to support them:
1) The VM is a ciphered text, with an actual, widespread natural language plaintext underlying it
2) Every use of EVA "y" within the text is a null (that is, that glyph has has no underlying corresponding character (or characters) in the plaintext that it is represented by) -- basically, someone who is decoding the VM message should IGNORE that character
Given these two assumptions, I wanted to examine Koen's work on removing EVA y (after the bigram alterations). The result he found was that entropy is signficantly increased (e.g. there is significantly more disorder).
Now if we use the traditional definition of a null -- that is, that symbol in the cipher "does not care what other symbols it sits next to" it is clear that EVA "y" is not behaving how a traditional null is defined.
I was wondering about the traditional use of nulls at the time of the VM carbon dating.
Does anyone have any insight into the use of nulls in 15th Century ciphers? That is, are we getting "anachronistic" with some sort of non-traditional null. By non-traditional null I mean, after every symbol (or pair of symbols) that stand for plaintext letter X, add a null, rather than "random" scattering.
I am finding it hard to imagine the motivation for a"non-traditional" null other than in relation to confounding some sort of frequency analysis, which I understand is a further anachronism. But if someone can come up with an alternative, I would be very interested in hearing about it.
Well -- I guess I have now answered my own question, as I suppose it could be hypothesized that nulls do not occur at the glyph level, but instead at the whole word level -- and if those null words were highly ordered, removal of a portion (like the "y"s only) could have this effect on entropy, even if the nulls were actually used in a "traditional" sense, as defined above.
In any case, would be interested in any other thoughts along these lines or just some comment on how varied the use of nulls were at the time and thanks for thinking about it!
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| qo and the 15.5% factor |
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Posted by: Voynichgibberish - 03-10-2020, 02:35 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (10)
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How rare or not is it for a text of about 34,000 vords or words to have a prefix like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which is present for about 15.5% of a corpus? If any of our researchers were able to scan several different languages like Latin, German, English and lastly Italian would it be common to find a prefix which stands out with such a large foot print in a text like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.? To be fair if one were to study the statistics for the other various languages they should use only 34,000 words from that text for each language. I know I'm being a bit bias for the language assumptions to test against, however the VMS was found in Italy so I presume if its not gibberish or it is gibberish in the Zipf presentation of my other thread that it is most likely Latin. However, that being said, if the Author just invented vords and attached them to Latin words maybe the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. phenomenon is of that reason. Yet if we do a study and this is common then we all learn that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is fine . Here I am asking again for anyone who has knowledge regarding about how to return or print just the first two characters from words of a text file via python and get a count for those token pairs. As I would like to test this myself, although I'm just a beginner in python, I don't know how to write the code.
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| What are labels? |
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Posted by: -JKP- - 01-10-2020, 11:16 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (47)
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I was going to post in the "word order" thread and then realized this topic needs a thread of its own.
What are labels?
For example, there are numerous pieces of text between nymphs on the zodiac-figure folios.
- On 57v are there labels? Can the one token outside the circles be considered a label? Are the tokens inside the inner circle labels?
- Is the short piece of text on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a label?
- Are the tokens in the left column of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. labels? Does the text at the bottom of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. include labels?
- Are there labels in the rings or spokes of the cosmo folios? (f67 to f70r)?
- On f72, can we consider the text within the lines to be labels or something else? Are the tokens between nymphs labels?
- Are the short bits on the lower left of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. labels? What about the single chars on the top right?
- Are the tokens at the top of f77r f77v f78r and f80r labels? Why does You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. not have similar labels?
- Is the short text on the bottom left of 81v a label or labels?
- Is the text within the rainbow on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. comprised of labels or is it only partly labels?
- Te text at the top right and the two stubby chunks on the lower right of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are they labels?
- Are there parts of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that are labels?
- Are there any labels on f85r4 (moon circle) or f86r2?
- What about the rosettes folio f85v ? Are some labels and some not?
It's difficult to do computational attacks or to generalize about labels without defining which pieces of text are included and which are not (and the reasons for the choice).
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| [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 01-10-2020, 07:46 PM - Forum: Imagery
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And if anyone else would care to be more precise, I propose that the composition of the VMs has an increasingly closer association with a person or persons associated with the Duchy of Burgundy, during the decades leading up to, and then specifically after c. 1435. And more specifically to Dijon which was the primary residence of the dukes until the 1440s, when the primary residence was moved to Brussels.
The information contained in the VMs reveals a high level of education and a potential familiarity with certain historical manuscripts or lost replicas.
First, the Oresme cosmos after circa 1410, starting in the Duke of Berry's Library, and hiding out for a while.
Second the de Metz connections to the cosmos and the pond scene, dated to the second quarter of the 1400s
Their common origins in Paris implies not only a possible common readership, but also a potentially common creator.
Third is the Library of Philip the Good, some time after1430.
The VMs makes use of specific details that reveal a thorough knowledge of heraldic traditions. And tied in with armorial and ecclesiastical heraldry, it reveals an intentionally disguised reference to religious history and tradition. Does the reader recognize the Genoese Gambit as an intentional construction on VMs White Aries? And this is a prime example of how VMs deception operates. It uses the alternate path of interpretation. It uses a hidden gate. The primary path of interpretation leads the investigator astray. The alternate, disguised interpretation leads to a hidden path of information that is validated by tradition relevant to this time and place.
And another potential religious reference, related to La Sainte Hostie de Dijon, connects with events of the early 1430s in that city.
This hypothesis is the summation from the discoveries of some half-dozen different investigators and their research. Each line has contained some elements connected to the Duchy of Burgundy. I am suggesting that they could all fit together.
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| entropy splits in parts of lines? |
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Posted by: geoffreycaveney - 01-10-2020, 01:22 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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It is well known that certain structures and patterns are typical of the beginnings of lines, and very different structures and patterns are typical of the ends of lines, in the Voynich ms text. But has anyone studied the relative entropy levels of just the beginnings of lines, and just the ends of lines, compared with the whole text? For example, what is the entropy of just the first halves of all lines of the ms text? And of just the second halves of all lines? What about just the first three vords of all lines, and just the last three vords of all lines?
I suppose the expectation would be that all such entropy levels would be even lower than that of the whole ms text, since the beginnings of lines by themselves and the ends of lines by themselves would be expected to be even more similar to each other than the whole text is. But I wonder if that has ever been tested. There is also plenty of repetition within each line, from beginning to end, so I wonder if breaking apart line beginnings and line endings will really lower entropy so much. I also wonder if there is any significant difference in the entropy of just the beginnings of lines and just the ends of lines.
The reason I ask is that I have come across certain groups of lines in my research where I find it easier to interpret certain parts if I only read the first few vords of each line and continue with the first few vords of the next line, ignoring the rest of each line. But this may well be an illusion on my part, which is why I am curious about the entropy statistics of just the beginnings of lines and just the ends of lines.
It would be possible to encrypt a message by only making the first three words of each line meaningful, and padding out the rest of each line with nonsense nursery rhyme repetition of the sounds of the first three words:
meet me at fleet be mat sleet we vat
the back door he lack moor we sack poor
of jons house off cons mouse scoff nons louse
monday at noon sunday cat moon runway sat loon
This doesn't seem like a very secure level of encryption, but now combine it with a simple substitution cipher, or even better a mysterious invented script that no one else knows. Then it would become rather difficult to decipher. By the standards of the early 15th century, it would have probably been quite secure. And both the concept of simple substitution (possibly incorporating elements of a verbose cipher, as we have recently been discussing elsewhere on this forum) and the steganographic concept of hiding the words of a meaningful message within a larger nonsensical message were simple enough to have been known and possibly employed in the time period of the Voynich ms.
Also, in filling out the nonsensical parts of each line, the author could very well have followed some of the principles of the "auto-copying" or gibberish theory that has also been discussed recently on this forum. That could have been deliberate, or it even could have happened unconsciously as the author thought of nonsense rhyming words and phrases to fill out each line. I found myself doing it as I wrote the lines above, at first accidentally and then deliberately after I noticed I was doing it. It's only natural to take "inspiration" from the other nonsense words and phrases that are already in the immediate vicinity of the line that one is filling out. And for the author and the intended recipient, it doesn't matter what those words and phrases are anyway.
If the principle of filling out the nonsense parts was based on choosing rhyming words and phrases, as in my example above, then one would also expect the middles and ends of words to have much lower entropy (more predictability) than the beginnings of words, a statistical feature that we also observe to be present in the Voynich ms text.
I am aware that the beginnings of lines also tend to be repetitive in the Voynich ms text, so I do not at all expect the idea I raise here to solve all the problems inherent in the difficult structures and patterns of the ms text. But I'm curious if the entropy breakdowns by parts of lines may give us some clues and leads to follow for further and more sophisticated examination of these ideas.
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| Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"? |
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Posted by: Voynichgibberish - 01-10-2020, 12:49 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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In most languages people use a (VSO) "Verb, Subject and Object". Since we all don't know for sure what language the Voynich is derived from, including who the Author is of the VMS; am I asking a question for which there is no answer?
Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
However if we can determine the (VSO) type mathematically, this would point us all towards the languages to research against the VMS which utilizes "free word order". I would assume random gibberish obeys "free word order". There are languages that do obey "free word order".
Does anyone know of a python script which can determine through the use of an algorithm (VSO) of a text regardless if it is unknown? To me there should be a model available yet I don't know where to look.
The VMS text seems to always start out consistent, however does the text obey certain (VSO) rules or is it free?
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