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No text, but a visual cod...
Forum: Analysis of the text
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[sh] and Paragraph First ...
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Ensoulment
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Trivia!
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f57v
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Pisces: March or February...
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The truncation effect
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Yale University Free Disc...
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Rectangular quatrefoil |
Posted by: R. Sale - 29-01-2017, 12:30 AM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (1)
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Originally posted as 'Heraldic quatrefoil' which seems to have gone missing in the recent situation.
Ellie Velinska has an old post on this pattern.
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And JKP posted a recent example of a band composed of simple squares, each with four lines extending from the midpoint of each side going part way to the interior.
The pattern is found in heraldry. And once you know what you're looking for, it shows up fairly frequently either in banded patterns or as medieval wallpaper.
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The interior markkings may be line or loops. Both occur in the VMs. The center may be pierced, dotted or unmarked. Heraldica shows the cinqfoil pierced and painted solid. In heraldry its use was minimal with the cinqfoil much preferred.
There is another version of a quatrefoil composed of four circles joined together, so I have added 'rectangular' to distinguish this variation.
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Numbering Quire and pages |
Posted by: Wladimir D - 27-01-2017, 06:53 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (32)
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I begin again this topic. Linda, JKP please restore up their posts.
All owners of the Latin language.
Please tell me in the labels Quire is used Latin abbreviations?
The last character "q" - this abbreviation Quire?
Why in the designation Quire19, Quire20 no reduction? So it was decided?
Nick wrote. (in the end of this post) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I think that the absence of reductions in labels Quire19, Quire 20 could be an argument for fact that label Quire 19, Quire 20, written simultaneously, but later than other labels Quire of 1-17, in already stitch up the manuscript. So the labels found themselves opposite each other.
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Crypto history event in Bratislava in 2017: Voynich presentations welcome! |
Posted by: kschmeh - 26-01-2017, 09:15 PM - Forum: News
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Hi all,
I would like to draw your attention to a European crypto history event scheduled for May 2017:
THE EUROPEAN HISTORIC CIPHERS COLLOQUIUM (Euro HCC)
Bratislava, Slovakia
May 18th and 19th, 2017
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This conference is expected to be the largest European crypto history event ever.
As a member of the program committee, I would like to encourage you to propose a presentation. Of course, presentations about the Voynich Manuscript are highly welcome. Maybe we can make the Euro HCC the most important Voynich event since the Voynich 100!
So, if you have an interesting Voynich topic to talk about, please hand in an abstract.
Klaus Schmeh
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[split] Overlap between both "plants" sections |
Posted by: -JKP- - 13-01-2017, 07:20 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (7)
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[Edit KG: this thread was originally in reply to this one: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ]
It's a good example, Linda.
I guess I was reluctant to ID You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as okra because okra leaves are typically more palmate (and more evenly serrated), but there is another reason I was shying away from okra (perhaps I shouldn't have)... it's because there is a plant in the small-plants section that I think might be okra and it is drawn very differently from Plant 8r.
Okra is distinctive for its pods and they grow on either side of the stalk in pairs, as depicted in this VMS drawing on folio 101v:
Note how the illustrator chose to depict the most distinctive part of the plant. I suspect this is true for many of the other plants, based on studying them in depth for several years. So... I shied away from okra for 8r because the leaves of okra are more variable than distinctive (I could be wrong, 8r might be okra)... but consider that the leaves of Petasites are the most distinctive aspect of the plant.
I'm fairly certain 101v : 4 is okra. I'm willing to acknowledge that 8r could also be okra but I'm leaning away from it.
I know it could be argued that maybe the big-plants section emphasizes a different part of the plant than the small-plants section (e.g., maybe one is for identification and one is for identifying the useful part of the plant), but once again, I looked into this in-depth, as well and, as far as I can see, when plants are duplicated in the small-plants section, they are drawn pretty much same as their counterpart in the big-plants section.
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f8r |
Posted by: Anton - 12-01-2017, 08:50 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (15)
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The identifications of this plant have been:
Th. Petersen: Paraenanthes, Atriplex hastata
E. Sherwood: Pisum sativum
Steve D: Tussilago farfara
The Finnish biologist does not consider this plant.
Of these three, methinks that Tussilago farfara is the best match. I'm not sure what does the small "pierced through" leaf stand for, though.
Turning to the mnemonic side, I can't imagine what would these leaves and roots remind me. If the roots in this case do not bear any mnemonics altogether, then they look to me as simply resembling real roots of tussilago. As for leaves, folk names of tussilago in various languages have been pointing to a hoof. The large leaf can be thought of as resembling a hoof (when looking from the ground upwards), but, if a hoof, the depiction is surely not the best possible. So I am not sure.
Are there any other proposed identifications from those who befriend botany?
Sorry, corrected the thread name - should read f8r.
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J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... |
Posted by: -JKP- - 12-01-2017, 06:54 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (33)
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DavidJackson kindly posted links to a collection of essays by J. Janick which interpret and support the Tucker New World theory.
Since it's in the library section, it's not possible to comment on the individual articles.
I read (with difficulty), the chapter on the zodiac section. It was so full of errors, I had trouble getting through it and found myself unable to read the others (I didn't feel it was worth the time).
However, mine is only one opinion, there may be others who feel differently or who want to address specific statements in the essays, so I thought I would start a thread in case others want to comment on his arguments and his conclusions.
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stop energy waste on herbal research |
Posted by: Davidsch - 12-01-2017, 12:00 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (24)
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In my opinion so much time & energy is wasted on the 129 pages of herbals and the 20 pages with roots that someone has to try to stop the waste of human energy resources.
Me too, yes, I am guilty too of spending much time of trying to solve the Voynich puzzle by identification efforts of the herbal pages.
All that, has been proven is a total waste of time.
The basis assumption that we see plants is wrong.
Why we think we see plants, with a stem, root , leaves and flower is based on the details we see.
But if you look really well, you will see that in every drawing there are things that do not match with the real world !
I could show an example here, but then the discussion will continue as usual: energy will go in the discussion of the details of the given example and a never ending discussion will start.
Because we recognize existing parts and details it does not mean it is a plant.
It is like the first time people saw an aircraft: "it's diabolical", "people are not meant to fly by God, otherwise he would have given them wings".
It is in the nature of humans, that they will always try to identify things. Was it not Aristotle who wrote: "if you want to analyse something, invent a name for it; because without a proper name, you can not identify it".
It is my belief that the author of the Voynich is into medieval Aristotelian wisdom, and wants to create a mood within he can tells us something.
This has only sideways to do with the herbals you see.
Searching for the exact names or identical brothers or sisters in the kingdom of plants, will therefore always remain fruitless.
The herbals are only illustrative and are not drawn to be identified as real existing plants.
Save the world and please stop wasting your energy !
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Analysis of the beast on f25v |
Posted by: davidjackson - 11-01-2017, 04:37 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (11)
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I think a little bit of analysis of the beast in question on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may be called for, so we can narrow down what we are looking for in identifying it. This is my first draft of my ideas and I though I'd put them out there for some feedback.
Questions:
- How many limbs are displayed?
- Why is the back limb stuck up like that?
- What are the ripples on its back?
- In what order were the plant, beast, paint drawn / applied?
As always, nothing is easy, mainly because the perspective is screwed on the beast. Its body is drawn at an angle but the head is side on. Let's just look at the body:
By cutting off the head it's a bit easier to see what I mean here. The chest is exposed on the animal and an attempt at perspective is made by drawing the nearside top limb in its entirety (event to the point of joining the shoulder onto the chest, albeit in a funny position) and showing only the paw of the back top limb. Also note that both paws have different number of toes (or claws) - the nearside has three, the farside four.
The end limb clearly appears to end in a paw and we must thus assume this is a limb, not a tail. It has three toes, same as the top nearside paw.
In fact, if that end limb went at a straight line instead of at a sudden angle up, the perspective works. Imagine the green smudge (the ground) wasn't there and the limb goes out. We're seeing the animal side-on, as we would expect to.
But the body is then twisted round. JKP has posted an image of a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but I don't think anyone has found one with three legs.
More-ever, there is something scribbled in the distance between the body and the end limb. This could be an attempt to depict the fourth leg - it's impossible to say.
If that scribble there is not an attempt to depict a fourth limb, then what is it?
There are also some scribbles around where the bottom limb connects to the body. It's so small that I can't get a proper resolution on it, even with the big TIFFs from the Beineicke. It looks like three vertical marks where the limb joins the body. It could just because the artist wanted to shade in the shoulderblade.
In summary: I think this is a four legged animal and the artist drew it too close to the ground. He then didn't leave room for the tail, and tried to draw it in the gap between the third leg and rear of the beast.
Let us look at the second question: why is the back limb sticking up at that angle? It is clearly anti-natural (not that this matters too much in a 15th century depiction).
My suggestion is that it's because the body was too close to the ground to be drawn in its proper place. I think the leg was going to be drawn in the correct fashion, but it was so close to the ground that someone had to draw it sticking upwards at an un-natural angle.
Let us look at the third question: what's that stuff on its back?
We see the body of the animal quite clearly. The artist has drawn the animal. He's then thought that more detail is needed and drawn these loops and whirls over the body and above the neck. The whirls also continue over the back of the beast. It's a covering of some kind.- It could be scales, but then why draw them ontop of the body?
- It could be wool.
- It could be a crest and scales, but then why extend the crest around the neck?
- It could be an attempt to depict skin markings.
Finally, the question of how the illustration was drawn. Plant, beast, paint.
Well, I think the paint and ground came first. The beast was then drawn, and finally the leaf it is nibbling on.
Look at the way the beast is eating the leaf. The leaf is drawn to vanish into the beast's mouth - ie, the mouth was there and then the leaf was drawn around it.
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Identification of Phytomorphs in the Voynich Codex |
Posted by: Oocephalus - 11-01-2017, 03:02 PM - Forum: News
- Replies (2)
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This article by A.O. Tucker and J. Janick has just come out in the Horticultural Reviews. It builds on the earlier paper by Tucker & Talbot in Herbalgram, attempting to identify the plants in the VMS as New World species, based on the hypothesis of a Mexican origin of the MS. There are 59 proposed plant identifications, including some that were not included in the earlier paper. A Google Books preview is online You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
I haven't yet looked at this in detail, so I can't say how convincing the identifications are. Just thought it may be interesting to some here.
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