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Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 516 online users. » 3 Member(s) | 510 Guest(s) Applebot, Bing, Google, asteckley, Jorge_Stolfi Latest Threads Speculative fraud hypothe... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi 25 minutes ago » Replies: 87 » Views: 5,245 Eleven Moon Phases in Fol... Forum: Astrology & Astronomy Last Post: Dobri 8 hours ago » Replies: 120 » Views: 20,984 voynich dot net and its f... Forum: News Last Post: Jim Reeds 9 hours ago » Replies: 15 » Views: 2,435 The journey into an unkno... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Petrasti Yesterday, 04:02 PM » Replies: 26 » Views: 2,250 How to prove that the B-l... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Ruby Novacna Yesterday, 08:00 AM » Replies: 76 » Views: 33,722 My Theory: RITE — Ritual ... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: oaken 13-09-2025, 08:47 PM » Replies: 18 » Views: 1,209 Positional Mimic Cipher (... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: quimqu 13-09-2025, 06:58 PM » Replies: 39 » Views: 1,517 No text, but a visual cod... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Antonio García Jiménez 13-09-2025, 04:24 PM » Replies: 1,560 » Views: 754,244 Origin of the Shield Shap... Forum: Imagery Last Post: Dobri 12-09-2025, 09:49 PM » Replies: 110 » Views: 15,620 EVA to IPA Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi 12-09-2025, 09:41 PM » Replies: 13 » Views: 652

Experimental replica of VMS properties with a given corpus Posted by: bi3mw - 11-04-2019, 06:14 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (69) For some time I have been dealing with a fundamental question. Have you ever tried to use a ( medieval ) corpus to generate text that has similar characteristics to the VMS using cryptographic methods? The horse is saddled here, so to speak, from the other side. I mean no random text, but text that can be decrypted again (meaningful). For example, is it possible to replicate the steep curve of word lengths ? Are immediate,multiple word repetitions possible ? It is therefore a matter of experimentally replicating the known properties of the VMS with a given corpus ( modeling ). Does that make sense in your opinion or is that too experimental ?   k as page number? Posted by: Anton - 11-04-2019, 12:23 AM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography - Replies (7) I was browsing You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and noted that the symbol similar to EVA-k seems to represent page number here. For example, in marginalia of f1r: "ad dolorem dentium k45", and indeed, on page 45 (f53v) we find "ad dolorem dentim".   Directionality of the text: right-to-left? Posted by: doranchak - 09-04-2019, 01:17 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (8) Here's a recent paper, "On the Directionality of Text in the Voynich Manuscript: An Edge-Based Approach": You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Quote:Abstract In this paper, we examine some linguistic properties of the Voynich manuscript. Our approach focuses on the properties of 'word' edges. It is shown that there are clear differences of the symbol distribution between the left edges and the right edges. We argue that these differences indicate the use of capitalization. Since the capital letters are placed at the right-edge, we conclude that the directionality of the text is right-to-left. Paper is attached.  What do you think?  Are their conclusions sound? Attached Files   JinbunShakaikagakuRonso6_197.pdf (Size: 212.96 KB / Downloads: 72)   Choice of glyphs Posted by: Koen G - 07-04-2019, 01:33 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (56) We know almost for sure that the Voynichese glyph set was purposefully assembled. By which I mean, it did not organically evolve over centuries. The fact that we have this particular collection of glyphs is likely the result of someone's (or a group's) conscious choice. We don't know if the glyph set was first constructed for the VM, and if more documents using it have existed. We also don't know if there are earlier or other versions elsewhere. But this matters little, we have what we have. So I've been thinking for a while... if we can assume that these glyphs were chosen, then what was the rationale behind their inclusion? It's quite a peculiar set. a - letter a --> vowel o - letter o or zero --> vowel or number l - four --> number q - four or five or q? --> number or consonant d - d or s or eight --> number or consonant y - abbreviation or nine --> abbreviation or number s - abbreviation m - abbreviation g - abbreviation n - abbreviation ch - ligature sh - ligature r - consonant (or abbreviation?) e - c? or minim? what is this? i - letter i? or minim? t - abbreviation (?) k - abbreviation (?) z - abbreviation (?) This list is made off the top of my head from what I remember, it's incomplete and I hope it can be fleshed out further and corrected. Still, it's a strange picture already.  We have: 5 glyphs that can be numbers About 10 glyphs in the ligature/abbreviation category Very few glyphs that are exclusively vowel or consonant. EVA-a is an exception. I'm not sure what to do with EVA-i and -e. EVA-r might be a pure consonant? What does this tell us? It appears that the glyph set is mostly composed of numbers and scribal conventions. Those few that are found in the alphabet often double as a number or abbreviation. So the glyph set simultaneously: - Avoids unambiguous characters from the alphabet.  - Uses characters familiar to the Latin scribe. The final point might also be of interest. The selection of known symbols likely meant that the writing system could be learned easily. But why construct a glyph set that relies so heavily on numbers and abbreviation symbols?   [split] Diplomatic ciphers Posted by: Mark Knowles - 06-04-2019, 07:54 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (92) I must confess I haven't read all the replies and I, as some others know, believe it to be a cipher. Now in a sense a cipher is a deception by its nature, so I don't know if that is what you meant by a "deception". You say: "The only third option is that the language-like properties we see in script, statistics and layout are an UNintended side effect of whatever else is going on. But that feels so unlikely." In think the language like properties we see in the script and statistics are not inconsistent with what I term an "atypical" diplomatic cipher such as were used in Northern Italy in the early 15th century. So if I understand you correctly what you suggest to me seems not so unlikely. As far as script goes, how familar are you with diplomatic cipher symbols of the time? As far as statistics go how familiar are you with how diplomatic ciphers work? I use the word "atypical" as this is clearly not a standard diplomatic cipher, but that is where I believe the influences come from. I also think this was a turbulent time in diplomatic cipher development and so techniques had not yet been standardised.   Phonology of Voynichese Posted by: davidjackson - 06-04-2019, 07:21 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (32) Let's strike out on an entirely new (for me) aspect of Voynichese - the possibility that it might have a phonology. I've dallied with this on and off for years, but never really had the energy to go down this route. But recently I've had some thoughts that are encouraging me. Let us reduce the problem to its most reductive position. I postulate the following: Voynichese has a phonology (ie it can be spoken). Why not? In the 15th century, many written texts were designed to be spoken aloud, it was a fundamental part of the training of scribes. And if Voynichese does link back to a language, even if the script is unique, the pronunciation is likely to carry through. Voynichese will be a language that shares enough phonemes with our languages to be recognised in the modern era. Because otherwise, this is a waste of time. Voynichese lacks intonations The lack of diacritics or similar tone indicators appears to bear out this theory, unless line initial or line ending glyphs indicate some such thing. This helps to narrow down the target languages, it can't be a tonal language. Voynichese is not regular The creator of Voynichese would have been working off their own assumptions; they obviously did not have access to the huge amount of research into human speech that we do. This would help explain the distinct "Currier languages" - the scribe was making it up as he went along, and incorporating new sounds into his book as he came across them. Sunshine was an intelligent, but medieval author We must therefore take a big step backwards and try to put ourselves into the mentality of a medieval intellectual. We may have a vague idea of what we want to achieve, but we lack the knowledge base to apply any scientific system to our method and are therefore making it up as we go along. I can't stress this enough, no matter in which direction we go. Let us therefore use modern tools to attack Voynichese. We take the IPA and take a long draught, before opening our manual upon the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Quote:The general principle of the IPA is to provide one letter for each distinctive sound (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), although this practice is not followed if the sound itself is complex.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to represent single sounds, the way You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. does with ⟨sh⟩, ⟨th⟩ and ⟨ng⟩, or single letters to represent multiple sounds the way ⟨x⟩ represents /ks/ or /ɡz/ in English. There are no letters that have context-dependent sound values, as do "hard" and "soft" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in several European languages. The IPA does not usually have separate letters for two sounds if no known language makes a distinction between them, a property known as "selectiveness".You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Among the symbols of the IPA, 107 letters represent You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., 31 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are used to modify these, and 19 additional signs indicate You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. qualities such as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Question How to identify You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.? The number of glyphs roughly corresponds to most medieval European alphabets, even if no direct correspondence to the Latin alphabet has ever been found. We can thus assume that they are discrete letters, and form phones when merged into tokens. Obviously they do not directly represent phones, any more than the 26 characters of the English alphabet represent all of the different sounds used to speak English. However, the regularity of glyphs within tokens makes me suspect that they may have a dual function. For example, certain combinations may indicate common word start or endings, and this would help explain away the LAAFU problem. Question How many phones are there? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which are 19 vowels and 26 consonant sounds. Latin; well, it depends on which period Latin. Italian has 32 phones, Spanish just 30. An interesting table of different languages can be You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Question So is there enough regularity in the glyph distribution to permit its phonetic structure to shine through? Well, I think there is. I'm starting to suspect that the glyphs work on both a bigram and digram level -some represent simple sounds, others represent more complicated or regular speech patterns. This is why we see regularity in the tokens, we could be talking about a proto-Italian dialect with the traditional "sing-song" vocal endings of words, etc. Certainly more research into this area is required. Now, how to translate Voynichese into IPA? Two methods occur to me. The first is arbitrary match patterns. That is, translating the most common glyphs into the most common phones by language and seeing if we recognise anything. A fun project, but not one I intend to start today. The second is cribbing. Find words that we think we recognise the words of and try to match to IPA, then see if it works with other words. Unfortunately, I haven't yet thought of a way to do this without imposing my own cultural reference upon it. Without any target language, it's no more a shortcut than the first option as we need to try lots of matches. It could even be slower than the first option, as we are limiting our options to something that is likely to be incorrect. So, people, ideas please.   Thoughts upon the leaf marginalia indicating provenance... Posted by: davidjackson - 04-04-2019, 05:46 PM - Forum: Marginalia - Replies (11) Simply an off the cuff thought that I haven't thought through, but, surely the presence of the various 15th century Latin characters hidden on leaves is a hint that the manuscript was originally produced by people with extensive or even native knowledge of western European literary tradition? IE, it's unlikely that a native writer of a script other than Roman would have used Roman characters in these places.   [split] Nikolai's theory Posted by: Nikolai - 03-04-2019, 09:09 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (17) There is a key to cipher the Voynich manuscript.      The key to the cipher manuscript placed in the manuscript. It is placed throughout the text. Part of the key hints is placed on the sheet 14. With her help was able to translate a few dozen words that are completely relevant to the theme sections. The Voynich manuscript is not written with letters. It is written in signs. Characters replace the letters of the alphabet one of the ancient language. Moreover, in the text there are 2 levels of encryption. I figured out the key by which the first section could read the following words: hemp, wearing hemp; food, food (sheet 20 at the numbering on the Internet); to clean (gut), knowledge, perhaps the desire, to drink, sweet beverage (nectar), maturation (maturity), to consider, to believe (sheet 107); to drink; six; flourishing; increasing; intense; peas; sweet drink, nectar, etc. Is just the short words, 2-3 sign. To translate words with more than 2-3 characters requires knowledge of this ancient language. The fact that some symbols represent two letters. In the end, the word consisting of three characters can fit up to six letters. Three letters are superfluous. In the end, you need six characters to define the semantic word of three letters. Of course, without knowledge of this language make it very difficult even with a dictionary. And most important. In the manuscript there is information about "the Holy Grail". If you are interested in this topic, I am ready to provide detailed information. Nikolai.   my suggestion about the author of MV Posted by: rasiratros - 03-04-2019, 06:10 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (108) I am a amateur researcher MV for 4 years. I studied many different theories, information, decoding methods. My opinion, is that the author is Cornelius Agrippa. Many indirect details related to the activities of Agrippa, his work on magic encryption shows his possible participle or authorship of MV. If we take the fact that the last page of the MV was written by the author MV, the amateur experience of grafanalysis showed that the handwritings are very similar.    F84r and f84v as the Italian Peninsula Posted by: Linda - 03-04-2019, 05:15 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (1) The three pools of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are actually two seas, plus the fourth largest lake in Italy. The three larger lakes had already been shown on previous pages. This page is basically showing the west shore, the east shore, and the center of the Italian Peninsula, or the landmass that looks like a boot jutting into the Mediterranean Sea. Notice that the west side is craggy, and the east side is more smooth, with one major prominence at the 'ankle' of the boot, and three 3 other points being visible, the 'knee', the 'calf', and one on the 'heel'. This drawing shows mountains with streams running into the sea. The sea is the green water body, and represents the Tyrrhenian Sea. The mountains are reminiscent of those in Beatus Maps, or other similar cartography. The tube is the navigable river Arno, Pisa and Florence are to be found on it. Tube rivers are also common in the history of cartography. If you look at the mountains a different way, they depict the peninsula itself through its two sides. The lower side has seven points, which represents the craggy nature of the west side. Between the last two points, the streams come together, this indicates a turn in the landscape, or the 'toe' of the boot. The grass line further indicates the shoreline the way it might be drawn on a nautical chart. The upper side has four dips, just like the next pool has four nymphs along the southern part of the waterbody, which would be the Adriatic Sea. All four have tubs, which stand for sheltered ports, although the third one is almost invisible as it is painted the same colour as the sea, but at least part of a tub rim is there, it covers the nymph's knee, and a dip in the shoreline is drawn as well, whereas the others do not get this treatment, this is to indicate it is a bigger feature than the others. I believe this is an example of a deception, although it seems to have its reasons, in that to the casual observer this would keep them from recognizing the prominence, but meanwhile if one is familiar with the shore already, the prominence and dip are indeed represented and recognizable as such, and it makes sense for this tub to be lesser than the others, as the sheltering level of this port is not as high, it is sheltered only on one side, by the prominence itself, whereas the others have lagoons. This is why this one only rates a transparent half tub. But I do not believe it to be coincidence that it downplays the actual features of the prominence. That the peninsula is drawn as two seas, each with one shoreline, is not surprising either, in that nautical charts are about shorelines, not land. Many times there may just have been rutters for one specific area. The pieces were stitched together, and the land details were filled in later.  The back side of this water body has been stripped bare, this is why it looks like a pool. The features of the blank side of this sea are included on another page of the quire. The stream that connects to the other one is not real, it simply denotes there is a water connection between the two. The single lake is Trasimeno. It is centrally located, about where it says Italy on the map at the top. Early Ptolemy maps included just the one lake.  These Ptolemy maps came out later, and according to wiki, both of these examples were published in 1467, by the same artist. This seems like it might need looking into. However, the information regarding Ptolemy's atlas was evidently first beginning to be translated around 1406. You can see the mountains go all the way down the peninsula. In the second version below, you can see more interior items were added, more mountains, more lakes.   Trasimeno is the light green lake. It is a different type of lake than the other two, it is endorheic and according to wiki, a depression formed by geologic fractures allowed the present-day Lake Trasimeno to form. Note the southwest aspect of the stream going off the page. What do we find when we look in this direction? As can be seen from this north up presentation, Bolsena is actually a bit west of Trasimino, just like in our vms drawing. If you follow the line of the two lower lakes, about southeast, it points to a city. That city is Rome.  These are the same two lakes on the other side of the page, f84v. The item at the top is a dormant volcano. Both these lakes are volcanic in origin.  Note that the streams are drawn in a southeast orientation this time. Rome would be at the bottom of the page. However i do not believe this to be the end of the quire, as marked. i think it may have been found this way, then marked as such upon binding. If you would like to see the parallels fleshed out with more comparisons to maps i would be happy to expound on this identification as best i can. First Previous Next Last