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+--- Thread: The myth of Melusine (/thread-3134.html)
The myth of Melusine - R. Sale - 27-03-2020
The myth of Melusine has a long history and different variations.
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It also has potential ties to the VMs through the "mermaid" illustration of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which has been discussed previously. One aspect concerning the representation of mermaids is that the division between woman and fish is generally around the woman's abdomen, while the division in the VMs illustration is almost at the woman's knees. In fact, one investigator had said it was as if the woman was stepping into or out of a costume of sorts. And this sort of potential for changing back and forth matches well with the myth of Melusine.
In the Wikipedia article it says: " Her legends are especially connected with the northern and western areas of France, Luxembourg, and the Low Countries."
And at the time of the VMs parchment dates, many parts of the Low Countries belonged to the Duchy of Burgundy. Luxembourg was also added to the duchy.
The VMs representation is also tied to the representation found in Harley 334 f. 57 in another way by the similarity of cosmic diagrams.
Furthermore, the author Jean d'Arras, is connected to Jean, Duc de Berry.
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The duke of Berry was the brother of Philip the Good, duke of Burgundy. The duke of Berry was the initial owner of the c. 1410 Oresme manuscript, BNF Fr. 565, which also connects to the VMs cosmos. The caption in the first article cites "Illustration from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. work, Le livre de Mélusine (The Book of Melusine), 1478" showing that the myth was still a current topic at that time.
Sure there are various ways this might be interpreted. However, this appears to be another example with ties to the VMs and potential connections to the Duchy of Burgundy.
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.'s 1454 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. featured as one of the lavish 'entremets' (or table decorations) a mechanical depiction of Melusine as a dragon flying around the castle of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: The myth of Melusine - -JKP- - 28-03-2020
Is the woman-in-fish a Melusine? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Is the woman-in-fish the story of Jason? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Is the woman-in-fish a metaphor for birth and the birth canal? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
To be honest, I still don't know what to make of the woman-in-fish. It seems too easy to assume it's the biblical Jonah, and there don't seem to be other references to Jonah on that folio, plus there are so many other possibilities.
RE: The myth of Melusine - R. Sale - 28-03-2020
Hi there JKP,
Firstly, I certainly am not claiming any priority of discovery as you and potentially others have investigated these various possibilities some time ago.
But secondly, when has it ever been shown the the VMs artist has drawn a clear and unambiguous illustration? Maybe somewhere, but you know what I mean.
My preferred interpretation, at the moment, is the myth of Melusine. And the reason for that is the historical representations of this myth involving the Duke of Berry and the Duke of Burgundy. And also the fact that both of these persons were apparently involved in other aspects of the VMs: The Duke of Berry with the Oresme cosmos, BNF Fr. 565. And the Duke of Burgundy with the Golden Fleece and the Apocalypse of 1313, BNF Fr. 13096.
As I see it, there are a growing number of historical items with relatively strong correlations to certain aspects of the VMs, which also have good historical provenance. And while that provenance may initially appear to be irreconcilably diverse, closer investigation reveals a common factor. The Order of the Golden Fleece was initiated by the Duke of Burgundy. The Apocalypse of S Jean was in the library of the Duke of Burgundy. The myth of Melusine was represented at the Feast of the Pheasant celebrated by the Duke of Burgundy. It starts to add up, IMHO. And while it is not particularly clear how this might have happened, it does seem more and more probable that somehow it did happen.
RE: The myth of Melusine - -JKP- - 28-03-2020
You won't get any arguments from me against possible connections to Burgundy. Many of the paths I've tried to follow in the VMS have led to Burgundy so, as far as I'm concerned, there might be something there.
RE: The myth of Melusine - R. Sale - 28-03-2020
JKP,
I am quite interested in potential for connections to the Duchy of Burgundy, roughly in the same time as the Carbon-14 dates and somewhat after - primarily. I've recently read Richard Vaughan's book on Philip the Good. So the myth of Melusine and the accompanying connections of historical provenance, which connect with Berry and Burgundy constitute another bale of straw loaded on the camel's back.
The thing that has convinced me is the comparison of the VMs critter with actual representation seen in the Golden Fleece medallion. Clearly there are significant visual differences. Yet various sources have made the suggestion that it might be the Golden Fleece. But the full interpretation of the VMs drawing wasn't really clear until after your investigation of Agnus Dei images and the discovery of a shared structure between the VMs representation and illustration of the same three-part (lamb / cosmic boundary / droplets) structure found in BNF. Fr. 13096. While at first it seems these two items of provenance inhabit two separate worlds, the information provided supplies the point of common provenance. The manuscript was in the library of Philip the Good. And like a magnet, things snap together.
What are the choices? Either the comparison is accepted, and it is accepted with all its ramifications and parameters. Or it is rejected. But rejected on what grounds. Provenance is provenance. I am not creating anything. I am merely pointing it out. If someone can shoot holes in the data, fire away.
I've read your assessment of the Nahuatl hypothesis. I think there is a much better case to be made based out of these and other more general examples of historical and cultural provenance for a Burgundian connection.
The cosmic comparison has provided two items of provenance out of Paris, but between 1420 and 1435 Paris was held by the Anglo-Burgundian side, not the French. And this would potentially explain Burgundian access to the cosmic illustrations.
The investigation of those little square wallpaper patterns used in the VMs circular bands, plentiful in early French images, clearly links to Burgundy in a 1420 illustration.
There is plenty of strong circumstantial evidence for historical contact that might even allow for an explanation of how Oresme's cosmos got dropped into the middle of Shirakatsi's diagram of the 'Eight Phases of the Moon'. Like a Jaguar with a Ford engine.
If you know of other items with Burgundian provenance to contribute that will surely help to further confirm the nature of VMs origins.
RE: The myth of Melusine - Aga Tentakulus - 29-03-2020
I've become a little cautious about fish tails.
Here almost everyone has something to do with it.
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RE: The myth of Melusine - DONJCH - 29-03-2020
(28-03-2020, 07:31 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've recently read Richard Vaughan's book on Philip the Good.So Phillip's father John the Fearless would have been Shakespeare's Duke of Burgundy?
History was a bit complicated around this time.
RE: The myth of Melusine - R. Sale - 29-03-2020
Aga T.,
Cautious is good.
The image in the second link, a mermaid / siren facing forward with a double tail is a fairly common pose for such representations. And, yes, there are a fair number of other creatures with 'unexpected', fish-like, lower extremities.
The Vms illustration You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is different. The woman + fish(?) is in a different pose and single-tailed. She is in a pond with several other creatures. This description applies equally well to illustration in Harley 334 f. 57, which was produced in Paris in the 2nd quarter of the 15th Century. I am not aware of any other illustrations that share all these points of similarity.
Furthermore, Harley 334 has been included in the discussion of the VMs cosmos. How many other historical manuscripts have two independent connections to the VMs?
Both the Oresme cosmos (BNF Fr. 565 fol. 23) and the Romance of Melusine connect with Jean, Duke of Berry, who died in Paris in 1416.
The myth of Melusine also connects with Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy.
From 1420 to 1435 Paris was controlled by the Anglo-Burgundian forces, with the possibility of access to the books of the duke of Berry.
The Golden Fleece (starting 1430) and the Apocalypse of 1313 both connect to Philip the Good.
If the comparisons are valid, that implies that there were connections. If there were no connections, what explains he similarities?
So far I'd say that the evidence is interesting, the provenance is good, and I would like to see the discussion continue and expand, or if the premise is flawed, let the flaws be exposed.
DONJCH,
John the Fearless (Jean sans Peur) was the second Valois duke of Burgundy, his father was Philip the Bold.
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The battle of Agincourt occurred in 1415
John was murdered in 1419 by French agents and his son, Philip the Good, formed an alliance with England that lasted from 1420 to 1435.
Henry V died the end of August 1422.
From what I can see, Shakespeare seems to lack sufficient detail to really be specific as to who was supposedly speaking to whom and when. And unfortunately I no longer have the book to see if there is any reference there.
RE: The myth of Melusine - R. Sale - 17-07-2020
As a demonstration of the persistence of the myth of Melusine during the latter part of the 1400s, there is this Dutch version dated 1491. Here she is at the beginning, in fully human form - i.e. with legs.
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This book: "Historie de la belle Melusine [Dutch]" - is in the KBR library
Image 213 shows her without legs and in a half-serpent form. No legs - at all.
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Images depicting the potential transfiguration of forms, not fully human, but showing the upper parts of two legs, are hard to find.
RE: The myth of Melusine - Aga Tentakulus - 17-07-2020
I wonder why a mermaid even appears in an herbal book. As in the example You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ([font=sans-serif]De piscibus)[/font]
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it is divided into 3 parts
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