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• f35v is Brussels sprouts?

• f35v is Brussels sprouts?

  pangiotis > 28-12-2025, 08:09 PM

  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks to me like a brussels sprouts plant with the leaf buds twisting around the stalk like a vines, and the foliage on top as well, the leaves on the side are also pretty common with brussels sprouts, the empty stalk on the bottom is also something you can see on the plant.
  You might say that the leaves look more like those of an oak and that the leaves on a brussels sprouts plant are too smooth, But it might be a different cultivated breed from the 15th century seeing that there are many vegetables that have curlier leaves and that originate from the wild cabbage (savoy, collard greens, kale, kalettes and wild cabbage itself).

• RE: f35v is Brussels sprouts?

  Jorge_Stolfi > 28-12-2025, 09:34 PM

  (28-12-2025, 08:09 PM)pangiotis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks to me like a brussels sprouts plant with the leaf buds twisting around the stalk like a vines, and the foliage on top as well, the leaves on the side are also

  
  Well, at least the brussels sprouts are known since the 5tc century, according to Wikipedia.  
  
  But I am not convinced about the resemblance.  The part that matches is the thick bare stem with a bunch of large leaves at the top and scattered leaves here and there.  But the shape of the leaves does not match, nor how they spread out.  And there is no sign of the sprouts themselves.  Instead the picture has  those separate twisting branches with flowers.
  
  On the other hand, I believe that the Herbal plant drawings are Frankenstein monsters.  Maybe one or two parts (such as the root, maybe the leaves) are indeed from the plant being discussed in the page, but the rest is a mix of spurious parts -- some drawn from nature, some copied from other herbals ("alchemical", probably) at random, and some just made up.  
  
  So maybe indeed the stalk and leaf arrangement of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are copied from a brussels sprouts plant that happened to be growing on the Scribe's garden.  But the flowers definitely are not...
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: f35v is Brussels sprouts?

  Koen G > 28-12-2025, 10:41 PM

  I like the idea for its out of the box thinking. The big objection would be that the plant is explicitly drawn like a vine though.

• RE: f35v is Brussels sprouts?

  pangiotis > 28-12-2025, 11:17 PM

  (28-12-2025, 09:34 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (28-12-2025, 08:09 PM)pangiotis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks to me like a brussels sprouts plant with the leaf buds twisting around the stalk like a vines, and the foliage on top as well, the leaves on the side are also

  
  
  So maybe indeed the stalk and leaf arrangement of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are copied from a brussels sprouts plant that happened to be growing on the Scribe's garden.  But the flowers definitely are not...
  
  All the best, --stolfi

  
  For me it seems that the scribe writing the manuscript misunderstood how the plant grows, from a far it may look like vines spiral around the plant with the buds on them because on the actual plant the buds do spiral upwards but on the stalk instead of on two stalks (see picture).
  Also remember that it is a plant cultivated for eating meaning that it has been selectively bred to produce as much buds as possible so the shape and quantity could've changed over time.
  
  You say that the leaves don't match but if the plants in the voynich manuscript had easily identifiable leaves then more plants would have been identified, I dont think that the shape of the leaves matter too much, seeing as nearly no plants can be identified

• RE: f35v is Brussels sprouts?

  Jorge_Stolfi > Yesterday, 03:21 AM

  (28-12-2025, 11:17 PM)pangiotis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.from a far it may look like vines spiral around the plant with the buds on them because on the actual plant the buds do spiral upwards but on the stalk instead of on two stalks (see picture).

  
  
  Good point...
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: f35v is Brussels sprouts?

  Rafal > Yesterday, 12:19 PM

  Funny that you have chosen exactly You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and nothing else.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is one of few pictures in VM that has a very strong guess confirmed in other manuscripts.
  
  See: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  It is very possible that it was inspired by an ivy growing on an oak. 
  
  

• RE: f35v is Brussels sprouts?

  Jorge_Stolfi > Yesterday, 03:55 PM

  (Yesterday, 12:19 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.F35v is one of few pictures in VM that has a very strong guess confirmed in other manuscripts.
  See: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  It is very possible that it was inspired by an ivy growing on an oak. 

  
  Indeed, that must be the source for f35v! But the Scribe presumably did not feel like adding the ivy's leaves, and choose to draw two loose turns  of its stem instead of the correct tight spiral.  
  
  Di you notice that the stem of the "ivy" pierces through the stem of the "oak"?  I have an explanation for that, but it involves a word that some here consider obscene... 
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: f35v is Brussels sprouts?

  Koen G > 11 hours ago

  (Yesterday, 03:55 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Di you notice that the stem of the "ivy" pierces through the stem of the "oak"?  I have an explanation for that, but it involves a word that some here consider obscene... 

  
  You're allowed to say "penetrate" on the forum, stolfi :p
  
  For the heliacal twining, several parallels have been found in other sources. For the "piercing" vine though, I know of only one example in a woodcut: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: f35v is Brussels sprouts?

  Rafal > 10 hours ago

  You made me wonder a bit, Jorge.
  
  I haven't seen any direct commentary on it but I would say that in European culture oak is a symbol of masculine force and ivy of feminine force.
  
  Oak is a symbol of strenth and was connected to many male gods.
  Ivy is rather weak but also adaptive and relational, not solitary.
  
  In Latin it is quercus (masculine) and hedera (feminine).
  
  It is not univeral. English doesn't have masculine and feminine nouns at all and in my native Polish both nouns are masculine - "dąb" and "bluszcz".
  
  But in modern Polish we have an idiom "kobieta-bluszcz" - "ivy woman". It is quite negative. It describes a woman that is totally dependent on her man but actually likes it. She has no own money, decisions, opinions or interests and just sticks to her partner and follows him everywhere but it is comfortable to her. And there is just "ivy woman" idiom, no "ivy man".
  
  And there is also Poison Ivy in Batman universe 
  
  
  So yes, the sexual symbolism in this case makes sense to me.

• RE: f35v is Brussels sprouts?

  Jorge_Stolfi > 6 hours ago

  (10 hours ago)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In Latin it is quercus (masculine) and hedera (feminine).  It is not univeral. English doesn't have masculine and feminine nouns at all and in my native Polish both nouns are masculine - "dąb" and "bluszcz".

  
  Romance languages derive from Vulgar Latin, an artificial language that was made up (spontaneously or intentionally) for use by the Roman army and provincial administration. Roman soldiers were mostly of people from the provinces and would have found Latin grammar too complicated to learn.  Thus Vulgar Latin was brutally simplified, with prepositions and fixed word order instead of noun and adjective declensions,  auxiliary verbs instead of tense and mood conjugations... and only two grammatical genders instead of three.
  
  The last change meant that the neuter nouns of Latin had to be redefined as a masculine or feminine gender.  This re-assignment proceeded rather randomly, and apparently it affected even some words that were not neuter in Latin.  Thus Romance languages often disagree on this point.
  
  Oak and ivy are respectively masculine and feminine in Portuguese ("carvalho" and "hera"), as in Latin, as well as in Romanian (IIUC)  ("stejar" and "iedera").  But in Italian ("quercia" and "edera") they are both feminine, as they are in Spanish ("encina" and "hiedra") .  Whereas in French they are both masculine ("chêne" and "lierre") ...
  
  

  Quote:So yes, the sexual symbolism in this case makes sense to me.

  
  This is a big difference between Humanities and Sciences: explanations in the former are always much more interesting and imaginative... 
  
  My explanation for that botanical absurdity is more pedestrian, boring even.  I believe that either the Scribe or a Retracer made a stupid mistake when drawing that part of the plant, where the two branches and the stem cross.  Below the crossing he drew the outlines as if the branches were in front of of the stem, but above the crossing he drew them as if the branches were in the background.  Thus, to "fix" the mistake, he made the branches pierce through the stem at that point...
  
  All the best, --stolfi
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