The Voynich Ninja

The subject of Guelphs and Ghibellines is a very complicated one it seems to me. I would still say it is not a topic that I feel I understand well.

The origins of the distinction was, as stated, between allegiance to the Holy Roman Emperor and allegiance to the Pope. However, by the 15th century the distinction seems much more complicated and nuisanced than that.

By that time to me they seemed almost like political parties such as the Republicans or Democrats in the United States of America. They had to some extent become detached from their original links to the Emperor or Pope. So, certain cities would be more likely to be Guelph or Ghibelline. And certain professions would be more likely to be Guelph and Ghibelline. Aristocrats would be more likely to be Ghibelline and merchants more likely to be Guelphs. But then specific individuals or families might be Guelphs or Ghibellines for their own reason. In the late 14th century in Florence there were the Black Guelphs and the White Guelphs.

Then cities might change from Guelph to Ghibelline or the other way around. This might result in them having to update all their battlements to reflect their new allegiance.

This all makes the business of working out which buildings had swallow-tail merlons in the early 15th century that much more difficult.

(05-06-2026, 01:18 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's actually the other way round: swallowtail merlons were ghibelline, i.e. loyal to the Emperor, like the Visconti.

It really does look that way. Then I must have gotten the wrong idea here.
I was focusing too much on the Guelphs.
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What’s certain is that it all began after the death of Emperor Charlemagne.
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It has long been recognized that the merlons are rarely representative of their purported factions:

Quote:Abgesehen davon, dass auch die Schwalbenschwanzzinnen viel älter sind als der Streit der wölfischen (päpstlichen) und der ghibellinischen (kaiserlichen) Partei, wäre diese Unterscheidung schon deshalb nicht durchzuführen gewesen, weil die italienischen Grossen und Städte mehrmals (freiwillig oder gezwungen) die Parteistellung zu wechseln pflegten. Uebrigens kommen die Schwalbenschwanzzinnen u. a auch mehrfach in Rom und an dem palazzo communale des päpstlichen Bologna vor, an dem beiderlei Zinnenformen zeigenden Stadthause von Florenz gerade an dem während seiner Zugehörigkeit zur päpstlichhen Partei erbauten Teile und umgekehrt.

Otto Piper (1912), page 329, note 2. Burgenkunde; Bauwesen und Geschichte der Burgen zunächst innerhalb des deutschen Sprachgebietes. Dritte vielfach verbesserte Auflage. München 1912 R. Piper & Co. Verlag.

Quote: Questa comune credenza di merli guelfi o ghibellini è però molto controversa ed in Piemonte è contradetta dai fatti. Qui i merli dei Castelli di Malgrà e di Strambino, appartenenti ai San Martino di parte guelfa, nonchè quelli dei Castelli di Ivrea e di Torino, appartenenti ai Savoia pure di parte guelfa, erano e sono tuttora a coda di rondine. Così dicasi dei merli a coda di rondine del Castello di Pavone sempre appartenuto al Vescovo d'Ivrea. Forse la cosa risponde meglio al vero in altri paesi d'Italia, ma non certamente in Piemonte. 

Carlo Nigra (1934), page 28. Il borgo ed il castello medioevali nel 50° anniversario della loro inaugurazione. Tipografia Carlo Accame Torino. 

Quote: Tutti sanno che cosa siano i Merli di un castello, e come essi si distinguano in cosiddetti ghibellini, cioè a coda di rondine, e in guelfi cioè rettangolari. Queste diciture sono però inesatte, poichè in Piemonte troviamo merli ghibellini sopra castelli di partito guelfo, e viceversa, onde esse poterono forse applicarsi esattamente solo in Toscana.

 
Carlo Nigra (1937), page 11. Torri castelli e case forti del Piemonte dal 1000 al secolo XVI. II. La Valle d'Aosta. AOSTA TIPO-OFFSET MUSUMECI 1974.

Even the castles of the Scaglieri, who are well-known fans of swallowtail merlons, sometimes have Guelph merlons or both:

Quote: Die Schwalbenschwanzzinnen sind hier 1920 genau so rekonstruiert worden, wie auf der Burgmauer der Hauptburg, den drei Wehrtürmen und den Ravelins. Dass neben den Schwalbenschwanzzinnen, auch als Gibellinenzinnen bezeichnet, auch die flachen Guelfenzinnen verbaut worden sind, deutet weniger auf einen Sympathie- oder Machtwechsel der ehemaligen Bauherren zwischen den Faktionen der Ghibellinen und Guelfen hin, sondern hat vielmehr architektonische Gründe. So sind auf allen hohe Mauern einschließlich der Türme die Schwalbenschwanzzinnen anzutreffen, während die niedrigen Zwingermauern und die Mauern des Hafenbeckens mit den flachen Ghibellinenzinnen aufgestockt sind. Die Koexistenz zwischen beiden Zinnenformen findet sich auch an anderen Scaligerburgen, wie beispielsweise in Lazise. 

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(05-06-2026, 05:41 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(Speaking of which, off-topic but not totally: in one of the Lord of the Rings movies there is a scene where the leader of the Elves shouts "Fire!" ... to his archers. Was the verb "to fire" used for bows and arrows too, before the spread of firearms?  Os should he have shouted "Shoot!" instead?)

In Warren Ellis' graphic novel Crecy (highly recommended BTW), the English archers were ordered to shoot with "Loose!", which makes sense, I guess.

The oldest building with these battlements that I’ve ever found dates back to 925–930. It’s a two-story residential tower with a surrounding wall. It’s located near Aosta in northern Italy, in a village on a main road.
I’ve been looking for it again for a long time, but since Google Earth deleted its photos, I haven’t had any luck.
It’s interesting to me because it predates the House of Savoy by 100 years.
It’s also worth noting that at the time, the wall had no military purpose. It was simply to prevent people from stealing your pigs and goats.
Now Marco will wonder, why am I mentioning Savoy?
I live 150 meters from the former residence of Margarethe of Savoy, the sister of Count Peter I of Savoy.

(05-06-2026, 09:50 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The oldest building with these battlements that I’ve ever found dates back to 925–930. It’s a two-story residential tower with a surrounding wall. It’s located near Aosta in northern Italy, in a village on a main road.
I’ve been looking for it again for a long time, but since Google Earth deleted its photos, I haven’t had any luck.
It’s interesting to me because it predates the House of Savoy by 100 years.
It’s also worth noting that at the time, the wall had no military purpose. It was simply to prevent people from stealing your pigs and goats.
Now Marco will wonder, why am I mentioning Savoy?
I live 150 meters from the former residence of Margarethe of Savoy, the sister of Count Peter I of Savoy.

Perhaps Fenis Castle is what you are looking for?

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Regards,
Dana Scott

(05-06-2026, 04:18 AM)Pierre Dumont Himself Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Noli, Liguria

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Seal of the City of Gorizia, depicting the castle and the city (1307). This may well be the easternmost extent of the swallowtaill merlons.


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That's cool, right on the border with Slovenia. I guess it can be added to the building layer?

Yes, I'm fairly certain they wouldn't be depicted if they hadn't been there. The seal was made by the Count of Gorizia, who clearly knew what it looked like. His main residence, Schloss Bruck bei Lienz, never had swallowtail merlons.

 Interestingly enough, they were still included in the 17th century reconstruction, after the castle had been razed and rebuilt, but disappeared at some point in the 18th century. 

Of course, it should also be included in the "Non-Manuscript Art" layer.
Edit: You can also compare it to the Seal of Trieste:

(14-09-2021, 07:07 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I like this shot of Sabbionara.

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I wonder what the view is like from the little clearing up on the hill behind the castle.

Am I blind or is Castello di Avio not on the map as a building, only a fresco? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.