22-09-2021, 11:51 AM
22-09-2021, 03:04 PM
Frescoes by Giotto in Assisi (1295 ca):
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The building in the first link is fascinating: it looks like a classical building from ancient Rome, with the addition of ghibelline merlons.
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The building in the first link is fascinating: it looks like a classical building from ancient Rome, with the addition of ghibelline merlons.
22-09-2021, 03:53 PM
Excellent, I was hoping for a Giotto 
22-09-2021, 03:58 PM
Do you think this line from the wiki is reliable? About the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view...
"The gate remained in use after antiquity with some modifications. The battlements (merlons) on the upper part date to the medieval period (10th century), at which time the city came to be held by the Ghibellines."
"The gate remained in use after antiquity with some modifications. The battlements (merlons) on the upper part date to the medieval period (10th century), at which time the city came to be held by the Ghibellines."
22-09-2021, 04:16 PM
(22-09-2021, 03:58 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you think this line from the wiki is reliable? About the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view...
"The gate remained in use after antiquity with some modifications. The battlements (merlons) on the upper part date to the medieval period (10th century), at which time the city came to be held by the Ghibellines."
I saw that, while researching Rimini, and I thought it is not reliable: no sources are given, which is a bad sign. I tried searching for information about the dating of the merlons, but with no luck.
22-09-2021, 04:45 PM
Has anyone thought of tracking the political allegiance of various locations over time. From ghibiline to guelph and guelph to ghibiline, one might expect the battlements in use would track that.
From my research the differences between the guelph and ghibiline is more difficult than one might first suspect. Originally the ghibilines were allied to the Holy Roman Emperor and the guelphs to the Pope. However it seem to become more complicated than that. The ghibilines seemed to be more associated with the aristocracy whilst the guelphs were more associated with the merchant class. However it was more complicated than that as certain professional guilds might be ghibiline and others guelph. However it seems more complicated than that as it appears like allegiances to the guelph party or ghibiline party were almost more like allegiances to football teams. You could find aristocrats who were guelph and religious figures who were ghibilines. Certain cities or towns tended to by allied to one party or the other. In Florence you had the black guelphs and the white guelphs.
It would not be very difficult to alter battlements to turn them from guelph to ghibiline or vice-a-versa. If true it would be more effort than changing flag, but it seems to me it would not have been a major construction project.
What is the earliest example of ghibiline merlons we know of? And how did use of that symbolism spread?
Also if all examples of ghibiline merlons in the early 15th century were identified how would we use that knowledge?
Also is consideration being made of buildings with a central tower with a spire?
From my research the differences between the guelph and ghibiline is more difficult than one might first suspect. Originally the ghibilines were allied to the Holy Roman Emperor and the guelphs to the Pope. However it seem to become more complicated than that. The ghibilines seemed to be more associated with the aristocracy whilst the guelphs were more associated with the merchant class. However it was more complicated than that as certain professional guilds might be ghibiline and others guelph. However it seems more complicated than that as it appears like allegiances to the guelph party or ghibiline party were almost more like allegiances to football teams. You could find aristocrats who were guelph and religious figures who were ghibilines. Certain cities or towns tended to by allied to one party or the other. In Florence you had the black guelphs and the white guelphs.
It would not be very difficult to alter battlements to turn them from guelph to ghibiline or vice-a-versa. If true it would be more effort than changing flag, but it seems to me it would not have been a major construction project.
What is the earliest example of ghibiline merlons we know of? And how did use of that symbolism spread?
Also if all examples of ghibiline merlons in the early 15th century were identified how would we use that knowledge?
Also is consideration being made of buildings with a central tower with a spire?
22-09-2021, 05:16 PM
I didn't see a reference, so I have mentioned Casa di Romeo of the Montecchi family of Verona.
22-09-2021, 05:26 PM
I thought it worth mentioning Guelph and Ghibiline flags as a parallel to the battlements.
Guelph flags tended to have yellow fleurs de lys on a blue background and Ghibellines had a black imperial eagle on a yellow background. So one might think that where one sees Guelph flags one might also see Guelph battlements and where one sees Ghibiline flags one might also see Ghibiline battlements.
Guelph flags tended to have yellow fleurs de lys on a blue background and Ghibellines had a black imperial eagle on a yellow background. So one might think that where one sees Guelph flags one might also see Guelph battlements and where one sees Ghibiline flags one might also see Ghibiline battlements.
22-09-2021, 05:40 PM
According to wikipedia
Ghibelline Cities
Arezzo
Assisi
Como
Fabriano
Foligno
Forlì
Grosseto
Modena
Pavia
Pisa
Pistoia
Spoleto
Terni
Treviso
Urbino
Guelph Cities
Alessandria
Ancona
Aquila
Bologna
Brescia
Camberia
Crema
Cremona
Faenza
Genoa
Lecco
Lodi
Mantua
Orvieto
Perugia
Cities with changing allegiances:
Bergamo
Ferrara
Florence
Gubbio
Lucca
Milan
Padua
Parma
Piacenza
Prato
San Miniato
Siena
Verona
Fivizzano
This might give us an idea of where we might find Ghibiline battlements. For me I have my own opinion as to precisely which places the two sets of battlements on the rosettes foldout illustrate, but despite this I do think determining where one might have found swallow tail battlements in the early 15th century is a really good idea.
Ghibelline Cities
Arezzo
Assisi
Como
Fabriano
Foligno
Forlì
Grosseto
Modena
Pavia
Pisa
Pistoia
Spoleto
Terni
Treviso
Urbino
Guelph Cities
Alessandria
Ancona
Aquila
Bologna
Brescia
Camberia
Crema
Cremona
Faenza
Genoa
Lecco
Lodi
Mantua
Orvieto
Perugia
Cities with changing allegiances:
Bergamo
Ferrara
Florence
Gubbio
Lucca
Milan
Padua
Parma
Piacenza
Prato
San Miniato
Siena
Verona
Fivizzano
This might give us an idea of where we might find Ghibiline battlements. For me I have my own opinion as to precisely which places the two sets of battlements on the rosettes foldout illustrate, but despite this I do think determining where one might have found swallow tail battlements in the early 15th century is a really good idea.
22-09-2021, 06:16 PM
(22-09-2021, 04:45 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also if all examples of ghibiline merlons in the early 15th century were identified how would we use that knowledge?
I guess it's more of a general resource. Not everybody has a clear idea of where these merlons were found.
What I hope is that at some point we might be able to compose a map of something else (for example a type of script found in manuscripts) on a different layer, and we might see areas overlap.