The Voynich Ninja

By the way, I still think finding them in manuscripts could be a more interesting exercise. So far we've established a few clear center in Italy, but only outliers elsewhere.

The outliers are one of those things.
I think it's more important who wrote a book and where, than where it is today.
It would be stupid to think MS 408 is a real New Yorker just because it also has the battlements.

(08-11-2023, 10:26 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The outliers are one of those things.
I think it's more important who wrote a book and where, than where it is today.
It would be stupid to think MS 408 is a real New Yorker just because it also has the battlements.

All manuscript locations in the map are based on area of production, not their current location. For example, we have one entry in Barcelona, because we have found so far one manuscript containing swallowtail merlons that was made in Barcelona. I find the manuscript entries most interesting, because we know the VM also belongs on this map: it is a pre-1450 manuscript that contains swallowtail merlons. We just don't quite know where to place it

(09-11-2023, 09:37 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[We just don't quite know where to place it

In the context of my hypothesis there are two locations to place it as there are two sets of swallowtail battlements drawn on the rosettes foldout. In my hypothesis the two locations are the walls of Bellinzona and the Milan Castle. I suspect that the page was drawn in real time so both drawings were drawn at or near the location in question.

I mention this as the presence of more than one set of swallowtail battlements is often ignored.

So maybe this Merton College MS 249 would be applicable. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Dated 1175–1350 possibly England or Fance.
Early 13th-century copy of Philippe de Thaon's Bestiary illustrated with line drawings, and 14 other items. Composite manuscript of 5 structurally distinct parts that were bound together by 1374.

Mark: please re-read my post. The location to put on the map is where the manuscript is produced. I even used bold text.
I know there are two sets of battlements, but that doesn't matter here: the VM is one (1) pre-1450 manuscript that depicts swallowtail merlons. We don't know where the manuscript was made though, so we cannot put it on the map. But the manuscript layer of the map shows where other manuscripts meeting these criteria were produced, which is why I like it so much.

Scarecrow: yes that looks great. I don't think the manuscript you linked is the correct one though. The image is from a manuscript produced in the south of Italy (without looking further into it, I suspect this will be in or around Naples). This should link to the folio: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(09-11-2023, 11:20 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Scarecrow: yes that looks great. I don't think the manuscript you linked is the correct one though. The image is from a manuscript produced in the south of Italy (without looking further into it, I suspect this will be in or around Naples). This should link to the folio: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Yes you're right, it was not the right link. It seems I had another, previously copied link in my clibpoard that I was checking before this, sorry about that.

Swallowtail merlons on ships...Google translate from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

Quote:Saint Petersburg, National Library of Russia - Ms lat qv xvii.2 Catone Sacco, Semideus, Padua, ca 1438 and earlier, illumination by an illuminator from Pietro da Pavia 's circle : the colored drawings with military scenes (probably made between ca 1400-1430); Belbello da Pavia : f. 9r initial with annunciation; Michelino da Besozzo : vignettes with Mary and Child in various places

Pietro da Pavia was born in Pavia and probably was a monk in Padua. His works were commissioned by the Milanese court (the Milanese biscione appears in the illustration).

That's a good one! I will still be adding all manuscripts to the map. The Dutch site seems to be somewhat badly hastily translated though (it still contains the phrase "Pliny's Natural History" in English, as if Pliny was Shakespeare). 

Our convention for placing manuscripts on the map is to use our best guess of where the manuscript was made. S. Pietro in Ciel d'Oro appears to have been in Pavia (Milan region) rather than Padua (Veneto). So unless there is an objection, I will use Pavia as the location.

Not long ago I was perusing the map manuscript collections on Gallica and I noticed at least one or two had swallowtail merlons. But I was in the middle of working on something else and forgot to come back and look at them again when I was done. So I went back and looked today and I found this one so far:

Map, Juan de la Cosa, 1490-1499, on Gallica

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