The Voynich Ninja

Full Version: The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
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(29-05-2026, 03:42 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The temptation to label as “errors” cultural expressions that are different from our modern point of view is always hard to resist.

Perhaps I need to clarify: those corrections in brown over the red text are not mine.  They are there on the manuscript itself.  So it is not me calling them errors, it was the Proofreading scribe.

In Post-Post-Post-Medieval manukeyboardscripts, one often see "their" spelled as "there", "it's" spelled as "its", "you're" as "your"...  Should we see those "variants" as the (written) English language changing, or as errors made by people who are not completely fluent in it?

All the best, --stolfi
(29-05-2026, 08:38 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(29-05-2026, 03:42 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The temptation to label as “errors” cultural expressions that are different from our modern point of view is always hard to resist.

Perhaps I need to clarify: those corrections in brown over the red text are not mine.  They are there on the manuscript itself.  So it is not me calling them errors, it was the Proofreading scribe.

In Post-Post-Post-Medieval manukeyboardscripts, one often see "their" spelled as "there", "it's" spelled as "its", "you're" as "your"...  Should we see those "variants" as the (written) English language changing, or as errors made by people who are not completely fluent in it?

All the best, --stolfi

Actually there are a lot of fluent English speakers who make those errors consistently! However, the reason that they make the mistake is that they don’t care which homophone they use as long as the recipient gets their intended message.
In my opinion, parallels with typed text are rather misleading and anachronistic. Handwritten text is an entirely different matter, and spelling itself was a very different, far more fluid phenomenon, at a time when the transmission of knowledge was entirely manual and could not rely on mechanical means such as printing or keyboards.

Scribes took shortcuts, such as omitting the dot above ‘i’. This, like the use of abbreviations and cursive scripts, was one of the ways scribes used to increase speed of writing, at the expense of readability. The result was that some readers occasionally found certain words difficult to decipher, as often happens to us modern readers as well.

As You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. points out, other differences in writing include regional pronunciation. One might therefore attempt a parallel with American "aluminum jewelry" vs British "aluminium jewellery"; however, it's important to remember how limited such parallels are.
(29-05-2026, 08:38 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In Post-Post-Post-Medieval manukeyboardscripts, one often see "their" spelled as "there", "it's" spelled as "its", "you're" as "your"...  Should we see those "variants" as the (written) English language changing, or as errors made by people who are not completely fluent in it?

Are these mutually exclusive? 

What is written language evolution, if not the culmination of many common spelling errors over time? So, depending on how common each mistake is, and how negatively people react or teach against it, any one of those may one day be considered (by future historians) to be an example of english evolution.
(29-05-2026, 08:38 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Perhaps I need to clarify: those corrections in brown over the red text are not mine.

Gosh. I would never have guessed! Rolleyes Confused Wink

That someone (not a proofreader obviously because there was no error) did it in 1500 or 1550 is no surprise, as Neo-Latin became the standard in the Renaissance and until the end of the 19th century. You're not old enough to hold that view that medieval Latin is just bad Latin. Tongue
(31-05-2026, 07:20 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In my opinion, parallels with typed text are rather misleading and anachronistic. Handwritten text is an entirely different matter, and spelling itself was a very different, far more fluid phenomenon, at a time when the transmission of knowledge was entirely manual and could not rely on mechanical means such as printing or keyboards. [...]


All you wrote is fine, but it is besides the point. 

That book was not a draft or personal notebook; it was a professional copy made at a "manuscript factory", for sale or to order.  Thus shortcuts, omission of the dots, and "regional variant' spellings wold not be acceptable.  Again, it is not me saying so, but the Proofreading Scribe who made those corrections in brown ink. 

As I recall, on the few pages I have examined, the Proofreader made very few corrections.  The number of corrections he made on that rubric seems to be evidence that the Rubricator was not the same scribe who wrote the main text. 

Some of those errors, like the omitted dots and the genitive in -e instead of -ae or -ę, could be ascribed to simple laziness. But I don't see how to explain other errors, like the spelling of the name of the book's author as lowercase "bone" instead of "Bona" -- except by assuming that he did not really understand Latin, so he did not realize that it was a proper name.  

To my eyes, the Rubricator's hadwriting is not bad.  So it is not like he was semi-illiterate or did not know how the proper way to shape a "ti". 

And the Rubricator could not blame the errors on the source.  That closing rubric note, like the rest of the book, was presumably copied from another professional copy of the book -- not from a cursive or hurried draft,like the VMS Scribe may have had.

Anyway, while we can debate whether that rubric is a pertinent example or not, my claim (again) is that a scribe who does not understand the language (or the encryption) that he is copying is much more prone to make errors (and more glaring errors) than a scribe who does.

All the best, --stolfi
(01-06-2026, 04:07 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That book was not a draft or personal notebook; it was a professional copy made at a "manuscript factory", for sale or to order. Thus shortcuts, omission of the dots, and "regional variant' spellings would not be acceptable.

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about.

From: “The palaeography of Gothic manuscript books - Cursiva”

Derolez Wrote:The letter i was normally treated as a minim and may be difficult to distinguish from the minims composing m and n, unless a diacritical stroke or dot has been placed above it. Dotted ‘i’s appear exceptionally in books from other countries, but they are a feature typical of Germany and Central Europe.

Seeing the deliberate spreading of falsehoods, even after I linked You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. clearly explaining the subject in simple words, is saddening. But I cannot do anything to stop this, so it’s better I just quit.
(01-06-2026, 06:55 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Seeing the deliberate spreading of falsehoods, even after I linked an academic source clearly explaining the subject in simple words, is saddening. But I cannot do anything to stop this, so it’s better I just quit.

Just because you think I am wrong about the dots on the "i"?  

Too bad.  You won't even try to explain the OTHER errors in that rubric?  Or WHY the Proofreading scribe felt it necessary to correct those "totally optional features"?  

Or consider the fact that different types of books could have vastly different quality standards, with respect to both handwriting and spelling?  So what was normal in notebooks or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.was evidently not acceptable on "industrially produced" books like that one?  A fact that that "academic source" apparently fails to note...

Or note that the very source you quoted above says 

Quote: Dotted ‘i’s [...] are a feature typical of Germany and Central Europe.

Which I suppose includes Switzerland.

All the best, --stolfi
I'm learning Chinese and I watched You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. videos by Koen Gheuens - the supposed "Chinese" language translation feels wrong.
Like any other "language" theory about a manuscript, the Chinese theory has many assumptions and gaps. 
First, as far as I know, it is based on statistical similarities and the fact that "word repetition" occurs in many Asian languages. However, in my opinion, this is not enough to directly claim that Voynichese is a Chinese or Vietnamese language.
Secondly, after a long time, we still haven't understood how the proposed transcription system used in the manuscript works. If it were based on Chinese, we would expect to find more parallels, as it's unlikely that the author didn't try to simplify a language that wasn't similar to the European languages they were familiar with (it seems strange that the author's system would be as complex or even more complex than the Chinese language itself. We must remember that this is the Middle Ages, the author is a European, and for him China was more, say, "exotic" than for us now).
Thirdly, why is this book incomprehensible to us? Why did the author, who wanted to write a work in transcribed Chinese that would be understandable to other readers (if you say that it could have been the author's personal reference book, you'll have to explain to me why the author worked so hard on it? Have you ever seen large, detailed maps on nine pages in regular diaries?), not explain how to read it? There is the Codex Cumanicus, where the Tatar language is listed at the beginning and written in a way that European missionaries could read and understand. This is the simplest and most practical approach, which we don't see in the manuscript.
Fourth, the author's motive is unclear. The book does not contain any topic related to China. Judging by the illustrations, the manuscript is mostly a medical reference book about plants, their medicinal properties, and additional information about anatomy (the so-called "balneological" section). However, there is one "but" - the f68r1 and f68r2 diagrams, which may depict the Chinese lunar month (simple and sacred, respectively). However, this coincidence alone is not enough...Why would the author use an obscure transcription system to write a reference book that he (or other people) would have to use constantly?
Fifth, translations... There are meaningful ones, but often the approach to them is subjective, and I haven't seen any general and trustworthy methodology yet (but maybe I'm the only one who didn't see it).
Sixth, I would like to hear why the system is like a cipher and contains its own internal features. If you try to convey Chinese as accurately as possible, but inconsistently, I don't think you will encounter any "anomalies" or peculiarities in the text.
Seventh, a personal question from me... Do you remember Gerard Cheshire? For me, he became the embodiment of all linguistic theories. You should explain how you differ from him (Cheshire selected roots from all European languages, deriving a meaningful result from them, but you know how correct his method is. It will be difficult to select from Chinese, of course, but you will have to resort to something similar anyway).
However, it is still possible to come up with some indirect explanations for the peculiarities of the manuscripts. For example, it could have been a group of merchants who regularly visited China and had a basic understanding of the Chinese language (which was sufficient for them to negotiate and establish contact with the Chinese), and who decided to write a book for a limited number of people (perhaps their colleagues who traveled to China, or perhaps someone else). The fact that they did not use Latin can be explained by the fact that the merchants did not find a method of romanization (and simple transcription seemed either redundant or inaccurate to them). If the book was written not by merchants, but by hired scribes, it is possible that the merchants provided the scribes with texts in Chinese and explained how to write them, and the scribes, who did not know Chinese and did not understand what they were copying, translated the text without questioning what they were writing (in fact, this "fluency" of writing is evident in the balneological section, with many repetitions and similar words, and a large number of qo- although they look similar to the Asian language, it feels like they reflect its subtleties very poorly. In general, one can even say that balneology was not written by a very skilled person. This is consistent with the fact that there is always more text on the pages of the balneological section than on others, not taking into account the recipes that were written by the same person, and it is logical to assume that the scribe would be looking for a way to reduce his work. This statement is suitable for any language as well as for any cipher version. But it doesn't really matter now...).
In conclusion, I believe that although this version is more substantiated than others, it still contains many inaccuracies, liberties, and assumptions. Remember that you have the power to correct these issues!  Wink
P.S. If anything, sorry for bad English. I I use a translator to communicate here, forgive.