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Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 774 online users. » 6 Member(s) | 765 Guest(s) Applebot, Bing, Google, davidma, magnesium, quimqu Latest Threads voynich dot net and its f... Forum: News Last Post: ReneZ 1 hour ago » Replies: 13 » Views: 2,299 How to prove that the B-l... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Ruby Novacna 3 hours ago » Replies: 76 » Views: 33,594 My Theory: RITE — Ritual ... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: oaken Yesterday, 08:47 PM » Replies: 18 » Views: 1,118 Speculative fraud hypothe... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Torsten Yesterday, 07:04 PM » Replies: 86 » Views: 5,160 Positional Mimic Cipher (... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: quimqu Yesterday, 06:58 PM » Replies: 39 » Views: 1,375 No text, but a visual cod... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Antonio García Jiménez Yesterday, 04:24 PM » Replies: 1,560 » Views: 753,849 Eleven Moon Phases in Fol... Forum: Astrology & Astronomy Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi Yesterday, 12:31 AM » Replies: 119 » Views: 20,778 Origin of the Shield Shap... Forum: Imagery Last Post: Dobri 12-09-2025, 09:49 PM » Replies: 110 » Views: 15,502 EVA to IPA Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi 12-09-2025, 09:41 PM » Replies: 13 » Views: 571 Formulaic text, "micro-co... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: Jorge_Stolfi 12-09-2025, 02:18 PM » Replies: 0 » Views: 175

Medieval Manuscripts with Foldouts Posted by: -JKP- - 04-12-2018, 10:56 PM - Forum: Physical material - Replies (8) A thread for examples of foldout folios from c. 1500 and earlier. Here is one from c. mid-1400s, southern Germany (possibly Augsburg), a prognostication manuscript on vellum with several foldout pages: Christie's Lot 1550, 2014: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Some points of interest: Clearly designed for portability (115 x 85mm), a little smaller than the VMS. Possibly created for someone who earned money as a fortune-teller? Zodiac symbols are within roundels but are the more traditional style (e.g., nude male Gemini twins). Connection between health, hygiene, and astrology. Note that the charts are in Roman numerals, so it might be on the earlier rather than the later side of c. 1450. There is a text with similar subjects: Edinburgh University Library, D.b.V.19 (also German).   Are Foldouts Always Shorter to Left but Longer to Right? Posted by: ChenZheChina - 29-11-2018, 08:33 AM - Forum: Physical material - Replies (24) I checked René Zandbergen’s website about quire schemata, and found that all foldouts are bound in a way that their left is shorter while their right is longer. Images are downloaded from René’s website.   schema09.gif (Size: 3.85 KB / Downloads: 313) Quire 9: 2-page wide to the left, 3.5-page wide to the right   schema10.gif (Size: 3.02 KB / Downloads: 310) Quire 10: 1-page wide to the left, 2.5-page wide to the right   schema11.gif (Size: 3.22 KB / Downloads: 307) Quire 11: 1-page wide to the left, 3.5-page wide to the right   schema14.gif (Size: 4.86 KB / Downloads: 304) Quire 14: 1-page wide to the left, 2-page wide to the right   schema15.gif (Size: 4.29 KB / Downloads: 311) Quire 15: 1-page wide to the left, 2.5-page or 2-page wide to the right   schema17.gif (Size: 3.35 KB / Downloads: 310) Quire 17: 1-page wide to the left, 2-page wide to the right   schema19.gif (Size: 4.23 KB / Downloads: 310) Quire 19: 1-page wide to the left, 2-page or 2.5-page wide to the right So here’s my question: Is this phenomenon just a coincidence, or a common practice at that time? In other words, is it possible for the original author to design pages that to be bound in a way where left foldout is longer than right foldout? I want to ask this question, because I am trying to review and re-order Herbal-B pages. When I was examining the foldout f94-f95, I wondered that if I could bind between what is now referred as f95v1 and f95v2, a.k.a. f95r1 and f95r2, like this:   Untitled.jpg (Size: 125.72 KB / Downloads: 305)   Divine cloud + tent? Posted by: Koen G - 21-11-2018, 09:29 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (7) There are a few instances in the manuscript where cloud bands appear to be combined with what looks like tent parts (sectioned roof + finials). I wonder whether this might bear some relation to Exodus 40, wherein a tent is set up for the Tabernacle and the Lord descends upon the tent in the shape of a cloud. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I got this idea when I came across this image in a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., depicting a tent upon which the Lord-as-cloud has descended. The manuscripts employs a different style of drawing clouds, but if the cloud band were used, it might look a lot like some of the VM images.   Naamloos-2.jpg (Size: 277.11 KB / Downloads: 195) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. "was the portable earthly dwelling place of Yahweh among the children of Israel from the time of the Exodus from Egypt through the conquering of the land of Canaan." This means that for an audience familiar with this story and the imagery, the invocation of the Tabernacle might signify a specific place, region or route.  That's all I have so far.   People in barrels Posted by: -JKP- - 16-11-2018, 09:01 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (14) I was going to respond to Koen's barrrel image on the "rings" thread but realized this probably needs its own thread... Diogenes is traditionally shown in a barrel, sometimes upright: Morgan MS M.126 (England, c. 1470 but notice that the text and illustrations are in the French/Flanders style) Or sometimes on its side, like a cave. These two, in which the barrel is sideways are from French manuscripts: Alexander in a glass barrel (medieval submarine): British Library Royal MS 20 B (France, c. 1420) Bathing barrels (there are many of these, and they are always upright, so I'll post just one): Morgan MS M.312 Book of Hours, use of Rouen, c. 1470s Barrels for food and tools: There are also many barrels associated with milking cows and goats, distillation and fermentation, and they are pretty much always upright, so I'll post just one: The ones that are most consistently sideways are Alexander's barrel and Diogenes's barrrel.   Marginalia f111r Posted by: Wladimir D - 12-11-2018, 07:27 PM - Forum: Marginalia - Replies (4) At the top of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. page, there is certainly an inscription (partially corrupted). At first glance, the first letter in the red box is n (Latin). The second letter is U / V. However, it cannot be excluded that the first character is X (10 is Roman). X is often written incessantly without taking the pen from the paper, with the formation of a loop on the right. The tail (red circle) can be directed both to the right, and down, or to the left. But I met (but unfortunately did not copy) when the loop can form at the bottom (my drawing is dots). JKP, do you have a similar example in the collection? Thereat the inscription in the red square is similar to the Roman number 17. If,  in the green square written the number 18, then can have serious consequences for the VMS study.[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]   МАРГИНАЛИЯ 111R.JPG (Size: 38.59 KB / Downloads: 160) [/font]   History of the study Posted by: Diane - 11-11-2018, 08:02 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk - Replies (25) Could the moderators consider a separate thread devoted to sources for the history of Voynich studies?  Say... 1912- 2012?   For example,  At the moment I have two questions which relate to past writings: 1). Anyone know what has happened to Brigadier Tiltman's paper about the manuscript. (  used to be at the NSA website as a pdf).    2) I'm trying to find the point where doubt was first cast on Wilfrid's description of the text as in cipher.   Following through  Jim Reeds' Bibliography (here),  it looks to me as if either Tiltman and Friedman began to have doubts very late in their involvement (though Nick Pelling disputes my reading of that passage), or that perhaps Jorge Stolfi's linguistic and statistical analysis really broke the model of beliefs till then. Access to primary sources and documents is all that's needed for a thread about the study's history.  A cut-off at 2012 would be neat, and would make clear the line between the history of the study and   current thinking.  Thanks.   Have you read the papers by Voynich & O'Neill Posted by: -JKP- - 09-11-2018, 11:59 AM - Forum: Provenance & history - Replies (2) Did you know that Wilfrid Voynich had written a paper on the VMS? Did you know that O'Neill had written a paper on the sunflower? Have you read one or both of them?   Request for details of source-text re Rudolf's library Posted by: Diane - 08-11-2018, 06:58 AM - Forum: Provenance & history - Replies (6) Dear members Re-reading the the valuable technical essay in Yale's facsimile edition of the Vms,  I came across one of the inserted editorialised bits, and in this case it said something for which I have never been able to find an historical source.  I'd be glad of help in providing it with some sort of footnote. The item states that the manuscript was 'known to have been in Rudolf's library'.   To avoid error, I'll include the passage as an image. To save waste of time, here are the only two bits of documentary evidence that I know about.  Both are taken from Philip Neal's transcriptions and translations (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) First, the letter of Ioannis Marcus Marci (in Prague) to Athanasius Kircher (in Rome), dated 19 August 1665:  Quote: Doctor Raphael, the Czech language tutor of King Ferdinand III as they both then were, once told me that the said book belonged to Emperor Rudolph and that he presented 600 ducats to the messenger who brought him the book. He, Raphael, thought that the author was Roger Bacon the Englishman. I suspend my judgement on the matter. It was also Philip Neal who made the observation that Mnishovsky (Raphael) could not have witnessed that event himself.  So Raphel was already apparently repeating hearsay, which makes Marci's non-committal report of it hearsay at third remove. Secondly, as we consider the weight due to this off-hand, third-hand rumour, it is important to remember that within sixteenth months of that letter's date, a mutual friend informs Kircher that Marci has lost his memory of 'almost everything'.  Such conditions normally develop over years, and not in any linear way, but sufferers (my GP informed me when I asked his opinion) do not shift from normal to extreme states within a mere sixteen months.   from Godefridus Aloysius Kinner (Prague) to Athanasius Kircher (Rome). Letter dated 5th. January 1667. Quote:Dominus Marcus has lost his memory of nearly everything but still remembers you. He very officially bids me salute you in his name and he wishes to know through me whether you have yet proved an Oedipus in solving that book which he sent via the Father Provincial last year. I have nothing else which connects Rudolf himself, let alone his library to the Vms.  Does anyone have details of the research which led to the statement that the manuscript was known to have made it to Rudolf's library?  If so please add details so I can bring myself up to date. Thanks.  (Perhaps I should have put this in requests to experts?) PS I am also trying to find out who should be contacted to get permission to reproduce a picture on a page from Rene's website.  It shows the Vms' binding but the only footnote reads 'from my talk....' etc., with no copyright holder listed.  Anyone happen to know who took the photo? Another, with it, was evidently taken by one of the scientific labs whose work is part of the same technical essay in the Yale facsimile.  Information gladly received.   Methodology - technical matters - not a discussion Posted by: Diane - 06-11-2018, 03:44 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk - No Replies I want to start this thread because the subject doesn't fit any of the present forums, and a library entry doesn't allow cumulative addition by the poster - which I hope to do.    The theme is really Methodology and  non-Voynich academic works that can help us gauge objectively whether on hypothesis (or 'theory') deserves greater or less weight given it.  A sort of  'reality-checking' bibliography for all the non-cipher and non-linguistic aspects of Voynich studies: No. 1.  'Reality checking' theories of where the manuscript was  manufactured:   For 'Italian' theories see the excellent article by Priscilla Anderson from the Journal of the American Institute for Conservation. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and for the full list of that Journal's articles: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   Reality checks - considering Lauber Posted by: Diane - 06-11-2018, 01:27 PM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography - Replies (13) Once again, I'd like to try and raise the fundamental issue of methodology in approaching a fifteenth century manuscript whose place of manufacture remains uncertain, and whose content remains largely unread, after a century and more. My view is that the chief reason for lack of substantial advance is a general absence of 'reality checking' when treating aspects of the manuscript other than linguistics and cryptography.  Since 1921 we have seen a remarkable absence of such cross-checking  when it comes to ideas that have been, and are, promoted as 'theories' about art, historical exchanges, and cultural practice.   For example, O'Neill did not bother to present any reasoned argument by considering actual examples of pre-1600 images of the sunflower when urging his highly-imaginative interpretation of one botanical image in the Vms. My recommending objective tests as 'reality checking' doesn't imply a necessarily negative critique; it could add solid weight to an otherwise hypothetical scenario.   The methodological difference is this: instead of hunting the historical record for support for a theory, and only within parameters defined by the theory, we first check that the theory itself is compatible with the wider bodies of relevant scholarship: codicology, palaeography, historical, technical and cultural studies.  (Had  O'Neill applied such method, his paper would have never seen print, and we should have been spared the lingering consequences). LAUBER I this case I'm recommending a paper by Scott (et.al) because it may help add more weight to recent comments about  Lauber's workshop. See e,g. Koen Gheuens, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., (blogpost dated Sept.12th., 2018)  Nick Pelling, 'You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.' (blogpost dated 10th September 2018) The paper I mean is this: David A. Scott, Narayan Khandekar, (et.al.)., 'Technical Examination of a Fifteenth-Century German Illuminated Manuscript on Paper: A Case Study in the Identification of Materials', Studies in Conservation, Vol. 46, No. 2, (2001), pp. 93-108.  Available through JSTOR That paper  gives technical and nicely specific information about works which came from Lauber's atelier, and names some of the artisans who worked there.   I'll quote a bit with original footnote numbers retained:  Quote: Diebolt Lauber is known to have been a book-seller and miniature painter active in Hagenau in the region of Alsace from 1427 to 1467. Known in the art historical literature as a prodigious publisher (as many as 50 manuscripts have been attributed to his atelier), Lauber is thought to have had as many as 16 draughtsmen and five scribes working simultaneously in his studio [7]. In an advertisement that  appears in a manuscript now in the British Library, Lauber declares the versatility of his workshop: '.... The scribe of our manuscript ends the text with the date 1469. It has been suggested that the illuminator was one of the better-known artists working in Lauber's atelier, Hans Schilling, or an associate of Schilling [8, 10]. A number of compositions can be compared to engravings dating to 1461, 1466 and 1467 by the Master E. S., a Swiss engraver whose work had a far-reaching effect on artists in this period Investigating such topics as pigment analysis and  lineage of works ascribed to a given draughtsman may add weight to a 'Lauber' hypothesis or it may suggest a need to revise it, but in either case it can only be helpful to our better understanding.  As someone once said,  'scientific method' is almost a tautology for Science IS nothing but its method First Previous Next Last